Makers delivery times

[Neil Ostroff]

Neil, Roger and Buddy know each other a little bit, and I am sure that Roger is neither being sarcastic, nor rude.......

As far as your scenarios go.....not sure what the point is....but I would be pissed myself, tell the maker to go pack sand, and slam them to their face first, and TO EVERY dealer, fellow maker and collector that I know....with venom and prejudice.....if they want to risk that, it is their choice.....would be much more tolerant with explaining my position in a reasonable manner to a newbie though, rather than a veteran knifemaker, they should know better.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

In my opinion, Roger was being unnecessarily rough on the guy. Sort of looking down at him - at least that is how it appeared to me. I don't know Buddy and perhaps many others don't as well, so if this is some private joke between you three then I guess that is fine. Nice to see you sticking up for Roger.:thumbup:

Re my scenarios- the point is that "you" would do as you said you would- and that is fine, if that is what you felt like doing. BUT... my point was really directed at the innocent out there who don't have your strength and experience and would lay down and just feel violated and perhaps drop out of this great game that we are in. THAT is my point- I am looking at the guys who don't have the big voice and who don't understand why what is happening is happening and just decide to collect something else.

Have a great week and take care, Neil

 

[RogerP]

Roger,

I guess you disagree with the gentleman from Colorado? This happens, I suppose. Your reply seems to be mocking him. Just because he doesn't agree with you does not mean that you should be sarcastic or rude.

Neil,

You read a lot into three words. STeven said it better than I, but expressed the same sentiment I intended. I will borrow his turn of phrase: "Not sure I can relate to your feeling about this one, Buddy."

As for your comments about what you perceived to be sarcasm and rudeness on my part - well, I'll choose not to respond.

Oh, and any progress on de-mystifying the "San-Mei" steel you are selling?

So let me ask you how you feel about these scenarios...

1. You place an order with a knifemaker for delivery within lets say... 2-3 years. After the suggested wait time has lapsed, you take in several knife shows during each calendar year. While at these shows, you see this maker offer for sale a knife similar to the one you ordered- even if it is not the same item, it is "bench time" in the eyes of the maker

How do you feel knowing that this knifemaker has taken your order, given you a lead time, and then tells you at the knife show that he did not have your knife ready because he was getting ready for the show.

I have pretty good communication with the makers I work with. I fully understand that makers have to balance order knives, show knives and "professional development" pieces. Some take what I perceive to be an entirely naive view, and expect that if their order time has "lapsed" then the maker should have NO show knives until THEIRS is done. Not me.

2. Knifemaker takes and order and quotes you a price and delivery. The delivery gets pushed for many reasons (this is a part of the game)- one of which could be the "knife shows". But.... then this knifemaker raises your price up to the the "prevailing" level and does not keep to the price that was in effect at the time of your order. (This was not discussed at the time of the order.)

See, I avoid this scenario by the whole "communication" thing that you wish to exclude from your example. I have long maintained and expressed the view that when a maker's delivery time reaches 2 years or so, he or she should not be quoting a delivery price. Rather, the order should reserve a spot on the maker's list. When that customer's term comes, contact is made before work commences to confirm the details of the order and quote a price. If the customer doesn't like the price he is not obliged to make the purchase.

That said, if a maker quotes a delivery price in advance, he should stick to it.

3. A knifemaker owes you a knife- maybe one that you have paid for or a knife that you have sent back for warranty work or whatever. The drama has now played out for a very long time- maybe a year etc- but, there is the knifemaker, at a knife show, selling knives that he worked on while not working on the knife that you are owed.

Now Neil, surely you're not suggesting that I would be silly enough to pay for a knife in advance of completion, are you? As for repair work - on the rare occasions that this has been required, I ask the maker when he will be able to work on the repair / alteration. If he can't get to it for a year, I don't send him the knife for a year. Simple, no? Though in my experience, I have found that where there is an actual flaw with the knife, the makers I work with have been more than anxious to make it right - and quickly.


I hope this answers your questions and look forward to the info on the "San Mei" damascus.

Fondest wishes,

Roger

 

[RogerP]

In my opinion, Roger was being unnecessarily rough on the guy. Sort of looking down at him - at least that is how it appeared to me.

Once again, I will choose not to respond.

Roger

 

[Kohai999]

In my opinion, Roger was being unnecessarily rough on the guy. Sort of looking down at him - at least that is how it appeared to me. I don't know Buddy and perhaps many others don't as well, so if this is some private joke between you three then I guess that is fine. Nice to see you sticking up for Roger.:thumbup:
...... my point was really directed at the innocent out there who don't have your strength and experience and would lay down and just feel violated and perhaps drop out of this great game that we are in. THAT is my point- I am looking at the guys who don't have the big voice and who don't understand why what is happening is happening and just decide to collect something else.

Have a great week and take care, Neil

It isn't an inside joke...I just think you misunderstood the intent....I stick up for you too.

Thanks for clarifying your points. In many cases, the newbie collector is MUCH better off ordering through an experienced dealer such as yourself, for many of the reasons mentioned, and this is often not discussed as a reason to purchase through a dealer.....your chances of wasted time, or dissatisfaction in what you get are much more likely to be minimized.

One of the goals of the Custom Knife Collectors Association is to help newbies avoid the mistakes and unhappiness that many of us experienced in the beginning...like paying a 50% deposit up front.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[RogerP]

In many cases, the newbie collector is MUCH better off ordering through an experienced dealer such as yourself, for many of the reasons mentioned, and this is often not discussed as a reason to purchase through a dealer.....your chances of wasted time, or dissatisfaction in what you get are much more likely to be minimized.

Yep.

Roger

 

[Neil Ostroff]

Neil,

You read a lot into three words. STeven said it better than I, but expressed the same sentiment I intended. I will borrow his turn of phrase: "Not sure I can relate to your feeling about this one, Buddy."

As for your comments about what you perceived to be sarcasm and rudeness on my part - well, I'll choose not to respond.

Oh, and any progress on de-mystifying the "San-Mei" steel you are selling?

I have pretty good communication with the makers I work with. I fully understand that makers have to balance order knives, show knives and "professional development" pieces. Some take what I perceive to be an entirely naive view, and expect that if their order time has "lapsed" then the maker should have NO show knives until THEIRS is done. Not me.

See, I avoid this scenario by the whole "communication" thing that you wish to exclude from your example. I have long maintained and expressed the view that when a maker's delivery time reaches 2 years or so, he or she should not be quoting a delivery price. Rather, the order should reserve a spot on the maker's list. When that customer's term comes, contact is made before work commences to confirm the details of the order and quote a price. If the customer doesn't like the price he is not obliged to make the purchase.

That said, if a maker quotes a delivery price in advance, he should stick to it.

Now Neil, surely you're not suggesting that I would be silly enough to pay for a knife in advance of completion, are you? As for repair work - on the rare occasions that this has been required, I ask the maker when he will be able to work on the repair / alteration. If he can't get to it for a year, I don't send him the knife for a year. Simple, no? Though in my experience, I have found that where there is an actual flaw with the knife, the makers I work with have been more than anxious to make it right - and quickly.

I hope this answers your questions and look forward to the info on the "San Mei" damascus.

Fondest wishes,

Roger

I will have to make this short- I just started watching Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader and clearly I need all the help I can get.

Re "Mick Strider's San Mei Damascus", I am sorry to disappoint you but these are all sold but I may have some for you to buy at the CKG show in 2 weeks.

If you can't afford to buy any, then you can ask RL to take pictures for you and you can post them here for all to see.

Bye for now, Neil

 

[RogerP]

I will have to make this short- I just started watching Are You Smarter Than a 5th Grader and clearly I need all the help I can get.

Re "Mick Strider's San Mei Damascus", I am sorry to disappoint you but these are all sold but I may have some for you to buy at the CKG show in 2 weeks.

If you can't afford to buy any, then you can ask RL to take pictures for you and you can post them here for all to see.

Bye for now, Neil

Now Neil, I think you know that my question was not on the availability of "San Mei" damascus, but rather on its composition and the method of construction. Since you promote and sell knives made of this material I felt sure you would have some information beyond the name itself. So, is it that you don't know, or that you don't wish to say? You have bee asked many times now and have yet to respond.

Thanks much.

Roger

My ability (or not) to afford such a piece really isn't particularly relevant - but hey, thanks for raising it.

 

[Neil Ostroff]

Now Neil, I think you know that my question was not on the availability of "San Mei" damascus, but rather on its composition and the method of construction. Since you promote and sell knives made of this material I felt sure you would have some information beyond the name itself. So, is it that you don't know, or that you don't wish to say? You have bee asked many times now and have yet to respond.

Thanks much.

Roger

My ability (or not) to afford such a piece really isn't particularly relevant - but hey, thanks for raising it.

Sorry for the delay in responding- The show is over- Megan didn't know that Chuck Yeager was the first pilot to break the sound barrier and lost the million dollars...

First- nice speech but my questions were kinda hypothetical and not specific to you- (STeven did understand this) they were more of a gentle warning to the others who are perhaps not as sophisticated and/or important as you- but anyway, you took the liberty to spout off to show smart you are.

Next- the San Mei question. Did you always stamp your feet and throw tantrums when you were a kid? Is that why this childish behavior has carried over in to your "adult" life?

I don't have to answer to you and you will just have to do without the answer to this question (from me) that has become your obsession and which is clearly burning you up.

I don't have to jump when you bark- also, it is uncool, in my opinion, for you to hijack this thread with your personal agenda and desire to get your way.
This was, after all, a question about wait times- remember?

Not one single person from this 100,000 member strong forum has contacted me (I am very easy to find by email, phone or PM) in regard to that question- not one- but you are collapsing in despair over it- not really for the answer, but rather that I will not provide you with the answer that you so demanding.

So, Roger- I will not now nor will I ever answer your questions- ok?

But please do stop by my 5 tables at the CKG show and check out the Mick Strider SAN MEI Damascus knives that I will have to offer.:thumbup:

Neil

 

[Lorien]

I'm a noob, but I will say that waiting for a knife from a bladesmith for much longer than a year is too long. Of course, I will never be able to afford the kind of knife that would require 2-3 years to make.

I also prefer to get a knife made 'for me', which takes a dealer out of the equation. Buying one which was previously owned, on the other hand...

Additionally, there is no chance that I will ever prepay or put a deposit on something which does not exist. And lastly, I would fully expect that the agreed upon price would remain unchanged, regardless of whether the prices go up while I'm waiting for my knife.

 

[joshsmith]

As far as wait times I would venture to guess a four year wait time may be shorter if you were to actually get on the list. I say this because in my experience with long wait times when it get longer than a year people either move, sometimes loose interest, or run into financial issues. Some orders you receive as a maker were ordered on a spur of the moment after reading an article and then 12 months later they've moved on. Obviously not most of the people here because that's your passion.

The longer the time the higher the probability this will happen. Some makers may be factoring these things into their wait time. I know when I look at my list I almost figure a few of the names will bail for one reason or another. But then I also know if I do my job right a certain number of them will reorder.

This is why I think it is important for collectors to remain in contact. The old squeaky wheel saying. Not in an annoying way but just showing an interest. From the maker standpoint it's always nice knowing a collector is excited about his order.

I cut my shows from 6 a year to three to help my order situation. I think it's crucial however to always remain active in shows. I've learned this from watching the best of the best continue to stay in shows to some degree even though the don't NEED to.

Josh
www.joshsmithknives.com

 

[T.K.C.]

Well, I AM very patient when it comes to waiting for knives that I want. I have a knife that will be ready 2012, another knife that I have been waiting several years for, that may be ready in 08 or 09. I waited 2 years recently for a Sean O'Hare knife. It depends on how bad you REALLY want the knife. I WILL wait for 4 years or more, if it is a knife that I REALLY want.

 

[Kevin Jones]

This is the third thread on this same subject in the last 30 days. Kind of signifies how important this issue of long waiting list is to collectors.

Perhaps the answer is for collectors is to stop ordering so many knives and concentrate on what's currently available on the market.

This would definitely shorten maker's waiting list and would also help to stabilize prices on the secondary market.

I know of collectors that currently have up to 30 knives on order, one that has 5 orders with the same maker.

Is this really necessary, or just collector's nature of wanting what they can't have?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=529812

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=532297

 

[ddd]

I have a hidden, but quite realistic suspicion that quite a few these many
knives are on order from "dealers" who usually sell them at a profit.....
They don't mind the sometimes long waiting as knives keep coming in all the
time from their many standing orders.....

This, if proven true, surely lengthens the waiting time for the real collectors
and/or makes them purchase these same knives from dealers at a higher price....

What do you think?

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

 

[commodorewheeler]

I don't mind long wait times for order deliveries at all. My name just came up on Russ Andrews' list after 3 long years of waiting, and I have to say it was exciting to get the proverbial tap on the shoulder from him.

Although I can certainly understand why some makers don't take orders at all, from a collector's point of view, I would rather wait a long time for an order to come in than to not have the option of ordering at all.

 

[commodorewheeler]

I have a hidden, but quite realistic suspicion that quite a few these many
knives are on order from "dealers" who usually sell them at a profit.....
They don't mind the sometimes long waiting as knives keep coming in all the
time from their many standing orders.....

This, if proven true, surely lengthens the waiting time for the real collectors
and/or makes them purchase these same knives from dealers at a higher price....

What do you think?

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

David, I think you are absolutely correct. A highly sought-after maker who will remain unnamed here showed me his order list once, and the majority of the orders were from dealers, some of whom had over a dozen pieces each on order from the maker.

 

[HTMD]

... my point was really directed at the innocent out there who don't have your strength and experience and would lay down and just feel violated and perhaps drop out of this great game that we are in. THAT is my point- I am looking at the guys who don't have the big voice and who don't understand why what is happening is happening and just decide to collect something else.

Yes, this really happens - probably a lot more often than one might think. If my own experience is any indicator, it seems that it can happen in the beginning with new collectors and it can also happen to seasoned collectors who are further along.
I'm not so naive as to think collecting custom knives should be totally stressless and free of all problems and challenges - or that everybody and their brother ought to be passionate about it forever. But it's interesting to think about what keeps people in the game and what drives people out.
Others may feel differently about this, but when I think about what has kept me in and what has almost driven me out, I come up with the following:
Kept me going
- Positive experiences buying from knife dealers. Like Keith suggested when he started this thread, I too have come to appreciate the positive role dealers can play. Neil, I wouldn't expect you to remember this but I purchased two knives from you (True North Knives) on March 25, 2002. I just pulled the paperwork to be sure of the date. It was a very positive experience that definitely helped counter some of the confusion and anxiety I felt trying to understand the knife world and convince myself that it was OK to spend money on fancy knives. Looking at the TNK paperwork over six years later I can really appreciate your thorough and professional way of doing business. I should also extend compliments to Les Robertson and A.G. Russell for the same reasons. I apologize for getting cocky after a time and turning my back on you dealers. I can now see clearly that we are all in this together.
- Forums and forumites. Yes, we could all probably be more professional and better behaved at times but I really can't imagine pursuing this hobby without access to forums like this one. It's virtual anarchy, pure and simple - but also incredibly useful and a good way (in addition to shows and other knife-related gatherings) to find and make friends.
- Thoughtful and generous makers. I'm talking about the ones who know what it's like to be a new collector and will reach out and help. I am indebted (and therefore loyal) to certain makers who helped me in ways I did not expect - like warning me that not all makers were honest, reliable and sincere and that if anything happened that I didn't like or was uncomfortable with, to not be afraid to say no and move on as opposed to getting angry or upset and quitting altogether. Other examples include the maker who kept telling me to "just have fun and don't bother with anything in the knife world that isn't fun" - and also the famous maker who, when he saw that I was really attracted to his work, went out of his way to make a couple of his knives available to me at great prices without making me wait in line because he understood the concept of investing in and cultivating (so to speak) a potential collector of his work. Now that was smart and something I guess he'd figured out after many long hard years in the business preceeding his phenomenal success.
Almost drove me out
- Unscrupulous and dishonest makers. One renowned maker repeatedly jacked up the price for a special knife I'd ordered (the last knife I ever ordered) as an anniversary present for my wife, taking advantage of the emotional investment I had in the knife as a very special gift, then lying repeatedly about it being ready for delivery, needing more payment etc., using all the common excuses then graduating to the ridiculous and fantastic until I was forced to put a stop to it. I got all my money back PLUS a penalty but that experience really wounded me and very nearly drove me out. One bad experience like that can ruin a collector's attitude, especially when it involves thousands of dollars and a disappointed wife!

So, personally, I don't like waiting lists. It's fine with me if others do. My opinion has nothing to do with what's "best" or "better" for anyone else - nothing like that. It has to do with the fact that I never want to be in a position of suspecting that a maker is being less than honest with me, telling me I have a place in line and that my place is just as important as anyone elses when I know beyond any doubt human nature just doesn't work that way.

*Yes, there may be exceptions to the rule... but there will never be a way to know for sure, will there?

 

[RogerP]

First- nice speech but my questions were kinda hypothetical and not specific to you- (STeven did understand this) they were more of a gentle warning to the others who are perhaps not as sophisticated and/or important as you- but anyway, you took the liberty to spout off to show smart you are.

Sorry Neil, I guess I got confused by the fact that you prefaced your questions with the following:

Roger,

I guess you disagree with the gentleman from Colorado? This happens, I suppose. Your reply seems to be mocking him. Just because he doesn't agree with you does not mean that you should be sarcastic or rude.

So let me ask you how you feel about these scenarios...

I somehow misconstrued the above and thought your questions were directed towards me. My apologies for wasting your time - and mine - with my responses. I thought you were suggesting that your scenarios were an inherent consequence (or cause, as the case may be) of maker delays in delivery. I attempted to address that issue.

Next- the San Mei question. Did you always stamp your feet and throw tantrums when you were a kid? Is that why this childish behavior has carried over in to your "adult" life?

I don't have to answer to you and you will just have to do without the answer to this question (from me) that has become your obsession and which is clearly burning you up.

I don't have to jump when you bark- also, it is uncool, in my opinion, for you to hijack this thread with your personal agenda and desire to get your way.

Wow - questioning my childhood, my maturity and implying a personal agenda? Seems unnecessary. I don't recall barking anything and certainly haven't demanded that you jump or engage in calisthenics of any kind. I just asked a question: "Neil - that "San Mei" damascus you are selling - what's it made of and how is it made?" What is it that you find so provocative about that?

This "San Mei" stuff could be quite unique and innovative. I am not obsessed, but curious - as I am of all things pertaining to the forged blade. It may be that the answers to my question are beyond your comprehension. It may be that you feel the answers are beyond my comprehension. Or it may be that I just don't know the secret hand shake. Of course, there could be other reasons for your refusal to respond, but since I don't know what the reasons are, I'll leave it at that.

Not one single person from this 100,000 member strong forum has contacted me (I am very easy to find by email, phone or PM) in regard to that question- not one- but you are collapsing in despair over it- not really for the answer, but rather that I will not provide you with the answer that you so demanding.

So, Roger- I will not now nor will I ever answer your questions- ok?

Well, I wouldn't know about your e-mails and PMs, but I do know that several people have asked the question on the original thread and that you have been ducking and weaving like Sugar Ray Leonard in his prime. Hey, that sometimes proved a very successful strategy for Sugar Ray - it might for you as well.

But please do stop by my 5 tables at the CKG show and check out the Mick Strider SAN MEI Damascus knives that I will have to offer.:thumbup:[

I'd be happy to stop by your table Neil, but is there any chance at all that you would be more candid and forthright on the subject than you have been to date?

Oh - and a word to the wise - I know that it makes good business sense to promote yourself whenever possible, but consecutive posts trumpeting 'come by my table at the CKG show and see my great San Mei knives' is being a touch obvious.

Have a nice day now, hear?

Roger

 

[Stephen F]

Buddy,

I understand and empathise with a lot of what you are saying, but I also think you are painting with a pretty broad brush, there are just as many good guys as there are bad (more of the former probably) in this game. I have seen and experienced much of what you reference, makers with preferential customers who get faster deliveries, better prices, other knives jumping the queue and some pretty creative pricing ...... I have also benefitted from these, as I am sure you have by your own admission.

The reality is that if you are going to be a "successful" collector , and here I define "successful" as having the "best makers, rare pieces, high ROI etc" (caveat: I do not agree with this definition ) then you have to be prepared to put your ego on the back burner, do some serious networking, kiss the right butts, and have a lot of money. It is not just the makers at fault in the scenarios you describe, collectors make it very easy for makers to behave in a certain way. As a collector, when you go down this route without knowing the commitment you have made then disaster can strike. If I read you correctly then you have chosen a different route ......

I have to say though if you read your first post in this thread in isolation it does come off rather arrogant and even a little condescending, BUT, I have read enough from you to know this not to be the case.

Kevin,

Reference:

Why don't collectors focus on available market and not have so many knives on order.


You/We/I cannot control the way collectors behave just by saying it should be so. Look at the factors that cause the behaviour that you say is wrong.

THE single biggest factor in going direct to the maker is to get the lowest available price from an in demand maker so that you can be confident of getting a good ROI ......... why is everyone doing this? Because a lot of people keep telling them that to be a good collector you need to pay attention to ROI. A collector cannot do this by paying the premiums expected in the secondary market and from some dealers. The irony of course is that because of this the secondary market drops and so does the ROI that caused the behaviour in the first place ......

Factor in also the often the availability of the sort after knives in the secondary market can be controlled by a very tight network of collectors, which creates barriers to entry for a good secondary market.

On the selling off of knives: Why do collectors sell off at a loss to fund new knives

I think dealers and makers can play a bigger role in this:

If a dealer expects 20 to 30% commission on a sale, why shouldn't a collector opt to sell privately at 15% below market, he gets more money and probably sells quicker: I think LONG TERM dealers and consuqently makers and collectors would see the benefit of "trade-in" policy ( yes Les, thats you ) or low commission rates c. 5-10%.

Makers ... why not offer to help the collector resell via their site or via show tables.



I actually think the CKCA has the potential to do some good here. I would suggest the following:

- Offering a low cost medium for the sale collector knives, with a "market rate" condition.

- Co-ordinating the exchange and swapping of "Makers Slots" that collectors may be holding. eg. "I'll swap you my Fisk slot in June, for your Newton Slot in July".

..... Off my soap box.

Stephen

 

[RogerP]

This is why I think it is important for collectors to remain in contact. The old squeaky wheel saying. Not in an annoying way but just showing an interest. From the maker standpoint it's always nice knowing a collector is excited about his order.

Good point Josh. Sometimes just keeping in touch can pay off for the collector in other ways. One example: on more than one occasion, just touching base with a maker has led to a conversation about some new design or new method of construction that they are working on that isn't an ordered knife or a show knife, but what I referred to above as a "professional development" piece. If it's something that I think I would like, I'll offer to fund the piece and hence get hold of something "on the spot".

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

Buddy,

Kevin,

Reference:

Why don't collectors focus on available market and not have so many knives on order.


You/We/I cannot control the way collectors behave just by saying it should be so. Look at the factors that cause the behaviour that you say is wrong.

THE single biggest factor in going direct to the maker is to get the lowest available price from an in demand maker so that you can be confident of getting a good ROI ......... why is everyone doing this? Because a lot of people keep telling them that to be a good collector you need to pay attention to ROI. A collector cannot do this by paying the premiums expected in the secondary market and from some dealers.

Often the availability of the sort after knives in the secondary market can be controlled by a very tight network of collectors, which creates barriers to entry for a good secondary market.

On the selling off of knives: Why do collectors sell off at a loss to fund new knives

I think dealers and makers can play a bigger role in this:

If a dealer expects 20 to 30% commission on a sale, why shouldn't a collector opt to sell privately at 15% below market, he gets more money and probably sells quicker: I think LONG TERM dealers and consuqently makers and collectors would see the benefit of "trade-in" policy ( yes Les, thats you ) or low commission rates c. 5-10%.

Makers ... why not offer to help the collector resell via their site or via show tables.



I actually think the CKCA has the potential to do some good here. I would suggest the following:

- Offering a low cost medium for the sale collector knives, with a "market rate" condition.

- Co-ordinating the exchange and swapping of "Makers Slots" that collectors may be holding. eg. "I'll swap you my Fisk slot in June, for your Newton Slot in July".

..... Off my soap box.

Stephen

Stephen, how does the collector going straight to the maker to save 10% on his knives help on his ROI when he's selling his existing knives at a 30%-40% loss to pay for them?

I'm addressing two of the biggest problems that face collectors today. Long waiting list and poor resale value.

My solution would help to reduce both. Perhaps collectors at the root of this problem should consider it rather than challenge it.

The CKCA has potential to do many good things for the collector and it will.