Makers delivery times

[T.K.C.]

I don't mind long wait times for order deliveries at all. My name just came up on Russ Andrews' list after 3 long years of waiting, and I have to say it was exciting to get the proverbial tap on the shoulder from him.

Although I can certainly understand why some makers don't take orders at all, from a collector's point of view, I would rather wait a long time for an order to come in than to not have the option of ordering at all.

I agree with Ken on this 100%.

 

[A. G. Russell]

1. You place an order with a knifemaker for delivery within lets say... 2-3 years. After the suggested wait time has lapsed, you take in several knife shows during each calendar year. While at these shows, you see this maker offer for sale a knife similar to the one you ordered- even if it is not the same item, it is "bench time" in the eyes of the maker.

How do you feel knowing that this knifemaker has taken your order, given you a lead time, and then tells you at the knife show that he did not have your knife ready because he was getting ready for the show.

2. Knifemaker takes and order and quotes you a price and delivery. The delivery gets pushed for many reasons (this is a part of the game)- one of which could be the "knife shows". But.... then this knifemaker raises your price up to the the "prevailing" level and does not keep to the price that was in effect at the time of your order. (This was not discussed at the time of the order.)

3. A knifemaker owes you a knife- maybe one that you have paid for or a knife that you have sent back for warranty work or whatever. The drama has now played out for a very long time- maybe a year etc- but, there is the knifemaker, at a knife show, selling knives that he worked on while not working on the knife that you are owed.

So...how would you feel about all this? Maybe you would be ok with it, but I can tell you that many collectors (and a few "net" dealers) would not be happy under these scenarios.

Best regards, Neil

Welcome to the World of knife collecting.

Collectors who put up with this kind of behavior just encourage more of the same.

Smart makers are careful about making promises, yes, sometimes you may fail, but, you should stay in touch and make things right.

 

[2knife]

Neil,
Though you are not getting the Welcome Party here you deserve, i hope you will continue to provide your input on a regular basis. People in your line are able to relate valuable experiences and advice.
I thank you.

Roger, You're a good man. ..these things happen, i would let it go.
not anyone's fault. a big stew of competeing ideas and personalities.
I do understand you think Neil should answer the question, but clearly he feels pushed.

Good thread!
David

 

[Les Robertson]

Hi David,

One of the commandments that is never violated by professional sales people: Product Knowledge.

As the "Subject Matter Expert" on what you are selling. It is incumbent upon the sales person to either have the answer or find out the answer.

One of the lessons I learned while being trained to be an Intelligence instructor that I transfered to my business was:

If you don't know the answer...say so. Then let the person know you will find out the answer...then follow up with providing the person asking the question with the information.

Another commandment is: Never argue with a potential client...whether you are right or wrong...you lose.

Les Robertson
Custom Knife Entrepreneur
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

 

[Keith Montgomery]

Keith, is correct to say you are quite a unique collector in that you have a collection policy of no dealers and no resale? Or do you think there are many more like you out there in collectorsville?

I really don't know. I'm sure I'm not unique in the way I add to my collection, but I doubt that there are a huge number of folks that do it the way I do. However, I do believe that quite a few collectors don't consider the fact that they may be getting a better price by ordering directly from the maker.

If I were to purchase from a dealer, it would be from one that does everything possible to keep pricing at a level that is at, or as close as possible to what the maker charges for a knife.

 

[T.K.C.]

However, I do believe that quite a few collectors don't consider the fact that they may be getting a better price by ordering directly from the maker.

If I were to purchase from a dealer, it would be from one that does everything possible to keep pricing at a level that is at, or as close as possible to what the maker charges for a knife.

I personally DO consider that I get a better price ordering directly from the maker.

I also am very picky about the custom knife dealers I WILL buy from. I have a select few that I DO buy from.

 

[Joss]

I'm with Keith. The dealers provide a useful service in the sense that the choice to own an item from popular maker X is either buy at premium prices, or wait 1+ years. This is perfectly fine and is a decent trade-off, but to me this is rarely worth it.

 

[Kohai999]

I'm with Keith. The dealers provide a useful service in the sense that the choice to own an item from popular maker X is either buy at premium prices, or wait 1+ years. This is perfectly fine and is a decent trade-off, but to me this is rarely worth it.

1. Dealers cherry pick the best stuff.

2. They do the hard work for you of working with "difficult" makers who might very well do fantastic knives, but are not at all compatible with tender newbie sensibilities.

3. If there is something wrong with the knife, the dealer a) usually filters it out before it gets to the buyer, and b) works with the maker to correct it on the buyers behalf in the unlikely event that it gets past the dealer.

These are just some things that a dealer can do for a buyer.

Long wait times from certain makers is just a fact of life......I waited 3 years for my Pendray Southwest bowie, and it is very unlikely that a dealer would have one in stock.......and it was worth the wait....other collectors mileage may vary.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[RogerP]

1. Dealers cherry pick the best stuff.

2. They do the hard work for you of working with "difficult" makers who might very well do fantastic knives, but are not at all compatible with tender newbie sensibilities.

3. If there is something wrong with the knife, the dealer a) usually filters it out before it gets to the buyer, and b) works with the maker to correct it on the buyers behalf in the unlikely event that it gets past the dealer.

These are just some things that a dealer can do for a buyer.

Long wait times from certain makers is just a fact of life......I waited 3 years for my Pendray Southwest bowie, and it is very unlikely that a dealer would have one in stock.......and it was worth the wait....other collectors mileage may vary.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Good points all.

The "long wait times from certain makers is just a fact of life" point seems to me self-evident, yet somehow completely overlooked in all the over-analysis of the "reasons" behind the "problem" of long wait times. These 4-year wait times that are being discussed apply to a small handful of makers in the big scheme of things. Those makers in high demand - particularly those whose annual output is very low - will always have long wait times. So it is, and so it has been for, like, a long time.

On the dealer issue - I am probably buying a greater percentage of my knives from dealers now (well, Les, anyway ) than at any time other than when I was a rank newbie. The benefits of doing so remain even for the comparatively seasoned collector.

Roger

 

[ptgdvc]

I realize this my be an unpopular opinion, however I believe we as collectors have too many knives on order. Some collectors have dozens of knives on order. IMO, many times knives are ordered on impulse. We see a beautiful knife posted and we pick up the phone.

Why does it matter?
1) It's the main reason of course that waiting list are so long. Some maker's list are so long they probably don't know when or if they will ever fill them.

2) Some collectors place orders not even knowing how they are going to pay for them. I mean it's several years from now, why worry? This is obvious when you see a collector post a new knife received from an order and you know they will be putting several up on the exchange forum either shortly before or after delivery of the new piece. Many times these knives are sold for whatever a collector can get creating a negative effect on the secondary market.
It's ironic that sometimes collectors actually degrade their collections by having too many knives on order in that they sell better knives than they are ordering.

3) It has a negative impact on show sales. How many times do collectors not attend shows because they have knives arriving that need to be paid for.

Long waiting list are not just a maker problem.

OK, I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, so let me have it.

1. So what?

2. What do you suggest? Price controls?

2A. Completely absurd. If the new arrival is not an improvement, send it back or sell it.

3. What is so magic about shows?

 

[RogerP]

Here I go hi-jackng the thread again - but that is one seriously cool pic Mr. Gill.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

Kevin,

Take a deep breath, step back, and think about what I have written rather than just react. Take the personal issues out of it.

My Response:

In the first place you have connected two abstract points, the collector chasing the ROI is not necessarily the collector selling at loss, I do not imply he is, your inference is incorrect. Furthermore, a collector can save a lot more than 10% with some makers if he goes to source. A collector who has bought at a good price can afford to sell at below market price and still make a good return.

To your second point: Your solution is what exactly? .... "I command that collectors should stop this behaviour immediately, stop ordering knives and buy from the secondary market" ...... they need motivation and incentive, not sanctimonious preaching and ex-cathedra rhetoric!

I have offered solutions to some of these problems in my text, I don't see yours other than saying it should stop.

Stephen

I admit, I read your post in haste as I was also reading another document at the time. However my solution that you failed to understand is based on the most simple economics of supply and demand.

If collectors reduced orders of new custom knives it would influnce existing custom knives to rise in value. And even more simple; less orders = less waiting time.

I'm not advising not to buy from makers as I buy most of my knives from makers, just to order sensibly.

Which makers can you buy knives for a lot greater discount than 10%? The ones that are over priced to begin with?

You should go back and re-read my post. Especially the part where you quote "I command that collectors should stop this behavior immediately, stop ordering knives and buy from the secondary market"

Actually, what I said below was quite different.

Perhaps the answer is for collectors is to stop ordering so many knives and concentrate on what's currently available on the market.

This would definitely shorten maker's waiting list and would also help to stabilize prices on the secondary market.

I know of collectors that currently have up to 30 knives on order, one that has 5 orders with the same maker.

 

[Kohai999]

Here I go hi-jackng the thread again - but that is one seriously cool pic Mr. Gill.

Roger

To further hijack the thread, I had the once-in-a lifetime experience of seeing a NJ-class Battleship fire all guns broadside while I served in the U.S. Armed Forces, and hope that I will never forget the sight....something that today's sailors will not ever get to see.

Back to the subject at hand.....if the makers that you are interested in don't have a analogous presence in the market(Moran=Henrickson, Barnes, Sentz....), and the dealers don't/can't carry the makers work...if not a wait list....HOW are you supposed to be able to get the stuff, WITHOUT being on a waiting list?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

1. So what?

2. What do you suggest? Price controls?

2A. Completely absurd. If the new arrival is not an improvement, send it back or sell it.

3. What is so magic about shows?

About what I expected.

 

[commodorewheeler]

Perhaps the answer is for collectors is to stop ordering so many knives and concentrate on what's currently available on the market.

This would definitely shorten maker's waiting list and would also help to stabilize prices on the secondary market.

With all due respect, Kevin, I think this is easier said than done. As far as I can tell, the two major reasons why the average collector orders directly from makers are:

1. Nothing currently available on the secondary market appeals to them. Ordering a knife directly from the maker can let them have exactly what they want, at least to a certain degree.

2. Something that does appeal to them is available but so much more expensive than the maker's price that it is worth their time to wait for the knife from the maker.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I should just listen to Les and not even try to address custom knives from the investment/financial aspects.

 

[RogerP]

With all due respect, Kevin, I think this is easier said than done. As far as I can tell, the two major reasons why the average collector orders directly from makers are:

1. Nothing currently available on the secondary market appeals to them. Ordering a knife directly from the maker can let them have exactly what they want, at least to a certain degree.

2. Something that does appeal to them is available but so much more expensive than the maker's price that it is worth their time to wait for the knife from the maker.

Those are two valid reasons to be sure, but I am less sure they are the the major reasons. As some have suggested, collectors somtimes place orders directly with makers because they find the interaction with the maker in bringing forward their particular knife to be a rewarding experience in and of itself. I know I do. Ordering from a maker isn't simply a default option due to lack of availability elsewhere or likelihood of obtaining the lowest price.

Now, having conducted no statistical research into how what percentage of collectors place orders with makers / dealers / whomever - or why they do - I won't make any sweeping generalizations save to say that the reasons are likely many and varied.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

With all due respect, Kevin, I think this is easier said than done. As far as I can tell, the two major reasons why the average collector orders directly from makers are:

1. Nothing currently available on the secondary market appeals to them. Ordering a knife directly from the maker can let them have exactly what they want, at least to a certain degree.

2. Something that does appeal to them is available but so much more expensive than the maker's price that it is worth their time to wait for the knife from the maker.

Good points Commodorewheeler. I'm not saying not to order from makers as I always have around three to five knives on order, but 20-30 knives on order? Five from the same maker?
More and more custom knives are coming on the market everyday, whose going to buy them?
Look at all the great custom knives setting on the dealer sites.

 

[Stephen F]

Which makers can you buy knives for a lot greater discount than 10%? The ones that are over priced to begin with?

Not a discount in the conventional sense, but 10 - 25% below current after market price would be within reach for a few makers, especially if your are locked in at yesteryears prices.

A few of the high end folder guys, some of the makers mentioned with low output or long waiting lists Fisk, Hancock, Fuegen, Andrews, Farr ..... et al, could be turned at a decent profit if wanted compared to their selling price. Factor in that alot of the dealers sell at Makers price PLUS 10 to 15% and the gap between a dealer price and maker price can reach 20% to 30% for the hot makers.

There are dealers who will sell around makers price for 90% of their inventory (don't know who ), but they are few and far between.

The rest factor in the "time" premium ....... this is what you save by going direct.


BUT as other have said, and for me too, the interaction and being part of the creative process is uppermost.


Stephen

 

[commodorewheeler]

Those are two valid reasons to be sure, but I am less sure they are the the major reasons. As some have suggested, collectors somtimes place orders directly with makers because they find the interaction with the maker in bringing forward their particular knife to be a rewarding experience in and of itself. I know I do. Ordering from a maker isn't simply a default option due to lack of availability elsewhere or likelihood of obtaining the lowest price.

Now, having conducted no statistical research into how what percentage of collectors place orders with makers / dealers / whomever - or why they do - I won't make any sweeping generalizations save to say that the reasons are likely many and varied.

Roger

Roger, that is a good point, and it is the biggest reason why I order directly from makers themselves. My apologies for neglecting to include that one.