Makers who focus on better blade performance?

DCM

Joined
Aug 28, 2006
Messages
56
Which makers are truly devoted to building a better knife? .. experiment and test. As opposed to just using the same procedures, getting the same results from their knives time after time. "Good enough" mentality, in regards to performance.. and then a heavy concentration on the art.

**Would be interested to hear testimonies from makers about how they test, what they have done in the past, mistakes they've made, and how their knives have improved..
Thanks,
David
 
I'm sure there are many others, but Bob Dozier and Gene Ingram are two I'm familiar with that build good solid "working knives" at fair prices.

Don
 
Wow, where to begin?

First of all, I am not at all sure what it is you would characterize as "just high fashion" or "just something exotic or pretty". Perhaps you would care to provide examples? It almost sounds as if you consider good looks and performance to be mutually exclusive, which is not a point of view I share. Any maker worth his or her salt places the performance of their blades as a paramount criterion, and tests their blades to make sure that they can and will perform. This is true even of the highly embellished knives that are unlikey to see any use, much less hard use.

I could start to give you a list of makers you requested, but it would be so long as to become rather a pointless excercise.

As for the ABS? Their mission statement can be found on the home page of their web site:

http://www.americanbladesmith.com

"The American Bladesmith Society, Inc. pledges to diligently, reasonably and responsibly work exclusively for the purposes of promoting and advancing the art and science of the forged blade and other implements. And also to inform and educate the public in respect to bladesmithing, metal forging and heat treating processes, knife and tool design and fabrication, related arts and other areas in which the Society has expertise."

The short answer to your second question would be "Yes."

Roger
 
I see now that you substantially edited your post while I was responding. I think the editing was for the better.

Roger
 
The short answer to your second question would be "Yes."

Roger

Or reading inbetween the lines, a slightly longer answer to Davids question would be:

"Most respected makers are devoted to making a better knife, the list is a great deal longer than just Ed Fowler" ;) :D


Stephen
 
How do they do it? .. please give some details.

I know Dan Farr, for instance.. calls his knives 1st generation, 2nd generation.. is this to indicate some modification? .. And for those who, performance is a goal. Please chime in and discuss how edge geometry, grind, heat treating has improved over the course of your making.

I'd like to hear from the makers, since I am not a knifemaker, I just enjoy custom knives. Lack something of an appreciation for art knives in general, because I fail to have an open mind when I see the focus on the art. Maybe it is as Roger says, both.. I'd like to know if there's something behind the looking glass w/ a lot of knives that appear to be highly embellished, maybe I have a personal bias.. Still, there is a lot of this in custom knives today. You can argue that it is THE focus. I would like to know, for those who care little for the focus on the art, who are the makers who don't strive to make the art knife.

I will take a look at the ABS webpage, thank you. But, let me just ask.. the performance requirements, are they a minimum standard or do they really push and change in accordance w/ the advancements being done. Most factory knives, production companies are always seeking to improve steels and keep an edge on performance these days. Why not in custom knives? .. maybe I'm just blind to it, but rarely does anyone really shake anything up.. or stir the pot to make these trademarks and established people in the business improve the performance side of what they do. AND, it's not everyone... just those who are comfortable w/ where they are, or just interested in art.

Certainly Bob Dozier, .. and no question, Ed Fowler. Two of the Greats! ...Who else???

Some may sell their soul for the sake of art.. and it should be about cut. Isn't that what drives this whole obsession w/ knives. At some point you have to ask, is it about KNIVES anymore?
David
 
How do they do it? .. please give some details.

I know Dan Farr, for instance.. calls his knives 1st generation, 2nd generation.. is this to indicate some modification? .. And for those who, performance is a goal. Please chime in and discuss how edge geometry, grind, heat treating has improved over the course of your making.

I'd like to hear from the makers, since I am not a knifemaker, I just enjoy custom knives. Lack something of an appreciation for art knives in general, because I fail to have an open mind when I see the focus on the art. Maybe it is as Roger says, both.. I'd like to know if there's something behind the looking glass w/ a lot of knives that appear to be highly embellished, maybe I have a personal bias.. Still, there is a lot of this in custom knives today. You can argue that it is THE focus. I would like to know, for those who care little for the focus on the art, who are the makers who don't strive to make the art knife.

I will take a look at the ABS webpage, thank you. But, let me just ask.. the performance requirements, are they a minimum standard or do they really push and change in accordance w/ the advancements being done. Most factory knives, production companies are always seeking to improve steels and keep an edge on performance these days. Why not in custom knives? .. maybe I'm just blind to it, but rarely does anyone really shake anything up.. or stir the pot to make these trademarks and established people in the business improve the performance side of what they do. AND, it's not everyone... just those who are comfortable w/ where they are, or just interested in art.

Certainly Bob Dozier, .. and no question, Ed Fowler. Two of the Greats! ...Who else???

Some may sell their soul for the sake of art.. and it should be about cut. Isn't that what drives this whole obsession w/ knives. At some point you have to ask, is it about KNIVES anymore?
David

Once again, it may help the discussion if you would define your terms. What is an "art knife" to you? For some, putting a wood handle on a knife makes it an art knife. How do you define the term? If you engrave the guard of a forged camp knife, is it now an "art knife" in your books? Can you provide any examples of makers who have "sold their souls for the sake of art"? I honestly can't think of one, and you seem to suggest this is widespread.

I was not aware that Dan Farr generally labels his knives by generation. I am aware that he produced a series of different designs of his cutting competition knives - you can find an article on the subject in the March and April 2006 editions of Blade Magazine. And I am aware that he takes the performance of his knives very seriously indeed. As do a great many others.

Roger
 
I think you need to do some homework.

Asking a question on bladeforums does not meet this requirement.

Go to some websites, read some books, and find out which steels are best, and then look at the knifemakers that are using those steels.......there is a constant flush of the latest greatest steel, its not all hype, but it needs investigation

Second, go look at the website everyone suggested.......get some information under you belt, and then come back and ask questions based on what you know, instead of getting everyones opinion. :)
 
I really don't buy into this "art vs function" debate.

My real life need for a knife is as follows:

  • Open packages.
  • Cut paper, cardboard.
  • Cut meat and veg.
  • Skin and prep rabbit/game.
  • Chop and shape wood.
  • Various little jobs that need a sharp point/blade.
  • Knife should take a good sharp edge and retain it for a reasonable length of time between strokes.

Now heres the crux for me ........ if I could bear the expense of using a high end, damascus, engraved, ivory/horn handled, gold inlayed $3-6K custom knife to do all this I would do. I can't, so I use a damn fine field grade knife probably from one of the makers I would go to for the high end knife. My high end knifes are pure safe queens in the event that I need to liquidate them quickly.

It's not a case of "Art vs Function" , its a matter of limited disposable income and personal taste.

Stephen
 
David,

A few comments:

1 - It is a fact that most custom knives are not going to be used (except maybe smaller hunters). If you live in a city (most Americans do), or even outside of some states and counties, it's not even legal for you to carry a double edge knife, or a bowie, etc.

So why do people collect knives? Well, I seek visual appeal. From a purely practical standpoint, I don't care whether the knife cuts or not - I'm not going to cut with it anyway. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but most of my knives are not going to be used. I *do* care about the quality of the knife, but it's the same interest I would have for a Ferrari or a mecanical watch that measures 100's of seconds. I admire the effectiveness even if I'm not going to ever use it.

So the way I think of knives, there's a minimum performance bar, and above that I mostly care about the esthetic aspects. There are a few exceptions to that (for example, I would like one of Howard Clark L6 katana, even though they're not as pretty as some others), but this is clearly the guiding principle. Most makers easily beat my minimal standards of effectiveness, so I don't really worry about it unless I have good reasons to suspect a problem (e.g., the maker makes outrageous comments as to the quality of their blades such as Shiva Ki).

2 - Even if I were a user of knife, it's very unlikely that I would ever need that last % of performance. So a rational thinker would not put too much value on that last % of performance, unless they enjoy performance for its own sake, knowing full well they'll never need it. That's a perfectly legitimate collection orientation.

3 - Performance depends on the metalurgy of the steel, the edge geometry, and the balance / useability of the full piece. Those concepts are vastly different for different intended uses. At 2 extremes, a santoku knife has a very keen & very hard edge, but a sword or an axe needs a blunter and softer edge. A santoku will chip if you use it to chop something as remotely hard as nuts, and an axe or a sword is likely to make a mess of cutting a tomato. Again, there are nuances in that, since it's possible to make a blade which is very good for a given task and still useable for another, but the key principle stands, i.e., performance definition depends on use.

Makers I'm most impressed with in terms of performance are capable of making a flexible filleting knife (flexible, long thin blade), a camp knife (or an axe), a santoku (very thin and hard blade), a sword, etc, etc. They are capable of selecting different steels for those, grind them properly, and heat treat them appropriately for the task. They are also capable of explaining in details, at a scientific level, what happens to the steel and why they use this HT method.

Using those standards, the makers I would put at the top of the list are in no particular order Don Fogg, Howard Clark, Kevin Cashen, and Nick Wheeler. There are others, I have no doubt of that, but if they don't talk about their knowledge and methods, I have no way to gauging them. Personally, I am un-impressed by Ed Fowler in that all I have seen or read suggests that he specializes on one type of knife and only understands the "what works", but not the "why it works". His method is empirical research, which is a pre-scientific concept. I am sure his knives are awesome performers, but his research method is fundamentally limited. I like the man, and I like his knives (well, the large ones), but IMHO his position at the top of the "perceived performance knife pyramid" by the collector community is unwarranted.

4 - A few interesting links for you:
- http://mvforge.com/salt pot info.html
- http://mvforge.com/metallurgy definitions.html
- http://www.cashenblades.com/Info/Info.html
- http://www.cashenblades.com/hype.html
- http://dfoggknives.com/techniques.htm

5 - The ABS testing has nothing to do (directly) with making a performance blade. A blade that you can bend 90 degrees without breaking is not per se high performance (in fact, for most uses, it's probably a pretty bad knives - unless your goal is to pass the ABS test). The test is meant to verify the testee's understanding of metallurgy, that's all.
 
Many important and interesting remarks. Thank you everyone.. especially Joss, who doesn't really care if the blade he buys is a top performer.. just that it meets his other criteria.. and meets a minimum bar. ;) So, it points out the reasons a person is interested in custom knives, some of them are purely artistic, nothing to do w/ knives really, does it?

Some of the comments that refer to my ignorance are totally valid. But, at the same time telling me to go do my homework is not in the spirit of my questions. Maybe I'm coming across wrong.. My questions are WHICH makers are in the business to build a better knife?? I'm looking for names.

And, I just want to throw the question out there. Who's in it for the art of it? .. I realize some of it is pure finances. When you do what you know will sell better, just because the money is there.. that's what I mean selling your soul. Everyone should do what's in their heart to do, even if it's making something totally impractical for the sake of one's own imagination. Even if it's a limited dream, or whatever.. but, you can say why you make knives if you do. If it's to make the most amazing damascus, or find a lost treasure and incorporate it into a handle.. you can describe your vision.

Surely not everyone cares how their knives perform, do they?? ( .. you've got to be kidding if you think so.) And, there's nothing wrong w/ asking recommendations of those, who are in the business of making good working knives. Who are they, how do your knives perform, how have they gotten better? .. all these things should not be anything to be afraid to talk about. Oblige me.. I'll respect any comments.

The day may come where production knives will take over in performance standards because custom knife makers lack the material science to build a better lightbulb... or have lost the desire. But, who cares if you're painting a Mona Lisa... is that what I'm hearing? Or, is it possible like Peter says to do both equally

..these are just thoughts I've had.. some are offensive to the many people here who truly love the knives they love.. and I'm sorry., no disrespect meant. Just trying to figure out the direction that this market is going, and why?... looks like it's in the art, more than the "cut". Who is in it purely for the "cut"? Have the ABS JS stamp and MS stamp performance standards been revised in the past years, to show the advancements in steel going on?

Thank you for the referred websites. I'll take a look.
David
 
...motorcycles and tatoos. That's what a lot of knives remind me of these days. wild stuff.
David
 
...motorcycles and tatoos. That's what a lot of knives remind me of these days. wild stuff.
David


Are you the person previously registered as "2knife"?

The reason for asking is that he was known to many of us, and you write in the same style. 2knife's last posting was 6/06, your FIRST posting is 8/06, and you both use "David" as a signoff

A newb being dismissive towards Joss's posting will not garner much appreciation, but if you are/were 2knife, then we already know what to expect.

As to the question, Bill Burke, Kevin Cashen, Howard Clark, Jimmy Fikes, Don Fogg, Dan Maragni, and Ed Schempp, just to name a few are DRIVEN to produce perfomance blades, and it would take a book to explain how stringently they test their blades. If you do a search here, by each name, you will find some answers there.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Which makers are truly devoted to building a better knife? .. experiment and test.

I have a book downstairs , that shows a knifemaker standing at a workbench where he has been cutting rope in a cutting test.

He has a pile about 2 feet tall of cut rope that he has cut without dulling his edge.

I dont know who that guy is,,,But his knife is something I would like to know more about.

I got another book where a guy sharpens an axe and shaves his beard with it....
trhats the type of stuff that gets my attention
 
And, there's nothing wrong w/ asking recommendations of those, who are in the business of making good working knives.

Well, now THAT is a question I can understand and I could probably throw 30 names at you. The problem is a lot of those guys also make what you would consider to be unworthy art knives. At least they might - since you won't say what it is you mean by an "art" knife, I can't know. Basically, I think you are starting from a flawed premise - that pursuit of performance and attention to aesthetics are mutually exclusive. They aren't.

As for "selling your soul" by making what the market demands? Well, I would tend to be less judgemental about it. Unless you have tried to pay your mortgage, put gas in the car and send your kids to college on the profits of the knives you sell, perhaps you should be less judgemental, too. Just a thought.

Roger
 
Thank you everyone.. especially Joss, who doesn't really care if the blade he buys is a top performer.. just that it meets his other criteria.. and meets a minimum bar. ;)

That is precisely correct, and yet sounds dismissive by your use of the term "minimum bar". It is my minimum standard, which is higher than you might think. Maybe I should have used a different term such as "given standard", etc. The fact is most bladesmiths make knives that I wouldn't reject on the basis of performance. Many make knives that I don't buy because they lack in (my) eye appeal.

There are some makers who like to produce "edged sculptures", and I don't consider them knives, personally. If you cannot use the item as a knife, then it's not a knife...
 
Are you the person previously registered as "2knife"?

The reason for asking is that he was known to many of us, and you write in the same style. 2knife's last posting was 6/06, your FIRST posting is 8/06, and you both use "David" as a signoff

Davids first post on this forum:

Knifetalkonline.com (new Ed Fowler website)
Announcing a great new website for custom knives. By the master of 52100 and multiple quench himself, Mr. Ed Fowler. Give it a look.. (Includes a discussion forum.)
David

............... should this thread progress further?

Stephen
 
I think your initial question makes an assumption that there are knifemakers out there who are:

just using the same procedures, getting the same results from their knives time after time. "Good enough" mentality, in regards to performance

IMO this is a generally disrespectful assumption, and I would not expect a lot of knifemaker participation in your thread.
 
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