Makers who focus on better blade performance?

[xuesheng]

As to the question, Bill Burke, Kevin Cashen, Howard Clark, Jimmy Fikes, Don Fogg, Dan Maragni, and Ed Schempp, just to name a few are DRIVEN to produce perfomance blades, and it would take a book to explain how stringently they test their blades. If you do a search here, by each name, you will find some answers there.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I'll add a few more names to that list, STeven, such as Jason Knight, Adam Desrosiers, Matt Lamey, Bailey Bradshaw, and Tim Zowada. Tim's website has some good info: http://www.tzknives.com/. Ed Schempp, as mentioned above, is a fascinating guy to talk to about steel performance and cutting characteristics of blades. I'm sure there are others - most of the guys who compete regularly in cutting competitions seem to focus on function of their blades, although there certainly appear to be those that more actively experiment and adopt new methods whereas some find something that works well and stick with it.

 

[RogerP]

As to the question, Bill Burke, Kevin Cashen, Howard Clark, Jimmy Fikes, Don Fogg, Dan Maragni, and Ed Schempp, just to name a few are DRIVEN to produce perfomance blades, and it would take a book to explain how stringently they test their blades. If you do a search here, by each name, you will find some answers there.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Yeah, but a lot of those guys also make fruity art knives, have sold their souls and pretty much don't count.

Roger

(To those whose sarcasm-detectors are on the fritz, I'M KIDDING!)

 

[Erik Fritz]

Personally as a maker i am always trying new techniques and methods be it from the construction to heat treating. the reason being that there is always and i mean always (at least at this point in my career) abetter way to do something wether it is a grinding technique or a heat treat method. i have progressed in heat treating from useing used motor oil to useing atf to useing toughquench and back. i have played with triple quench and triple draws on temper. i have played with high temp salts at a budies shop. all of this has been due to performance testing whether it is rope cutting. cutting 2X4's or bending blades. edge flexing or any number of testing mediums but the up shot of this longwinded rant is that any knifemaker that i have ever met is constantly trying to get more performance out of their product whether it is a high end art folder or a carbon steel hunter we all have customers that expect a certain level of performance out of a knife and we as knifemakers try to meet that level. also i have found that the 200 dollars a customer will give me for a carbon steel hunter because he can't afford a 1200 dollar Fisk hunter means just as much to him as the Fisk hunter means to the high end collector with the disposable income. Because of this whether it is Erik Fritz or Jerry Fisk makeing the knife we have an obligation to the customer to provide the blade he expects because if we don't this community of makers and collectors is small enough that we will soon be out of business if we don't provide a quality product. I had a conversation with Ed Fowler about this exact subject a few months back and he stated something along the lines of that we as makers should always be in pursuit of the improvement of our blades as far as performance and fit and finish and that as this pursuit is being carried out over the years and as we learn more our prices should increase along with our knowledge. i hope that this rambling was as clear as mud?

 

[Keith Montgomery]

All the makers I have worked with strive for the highest performance, even in their fancy knives.

 

[lwrhea]

I too would like to make improvements on the many different facets of knifemaking. For the time being I consider myself to be a contented student of those that came before me, but all the while proving and reproving the things learned.
If I had to give examples of what I consider improvements to my work, I would say :

Handle design for intended purpose
Edge Geometry for specific types of cutting
Balance of form and function


For me the artistic aspect of knifemaking cannot be ignored. Not because I fancy myself as an "artist". But because form does follow function. Its just a fact of nature. A knife that performs well for it's intended purpose, usually also looks good to the eye. At least in line, flow, and texture. Color can be a different matter but it can still apply in a lot of cases. When either form OR function is over emphasized things get out of balance and the overall desirablity of the knife suffers. These factors are what makes knifemaking a real challenge for me and what hold my rapt attention. Lin

 

[Kevin Jones]

Some may sell their soul for the sake of art.. and it should be about cut. Isn't that what drives this whole obsession w/ knives. At some point you have to ask, is it about KNIVES anymore?
David

I'm amazed by the reserch, testing, and hard work knife makers I know put into the proformance of not just their blades, but handle construction, material and fittings when they know these knives will most likely never cut as much as a blade of grass.

What do you have against something looking good and being able to perform?

I guess you think a sports car can't look good and be fast.

 

[Jose Reyes]

I agree with most of what Joss wrote up until the point he started talking about Ed... I also find the thinner shape Howard uses on his L6 blades very appealing, especially when he uses a more traditional looking tang. My knowledge of the Japanese style is more limited than Joss so he may be paying attention to certain things I don't even consider.

I also think it depends on what characteristics you consider important. An example would be a high performance racer as opposed to a high performance off road vehicle. Maybe you find the shape of a Ferrari more appealing, or the looks of a Hummer. Maybe a tight suspension is what you're looking for or a suspension with more clearance that will absorb the bumps better. The best performer could mean something different to each individual.

 

[DCM]

Thank you all for the interesting and informative posts, especially the knife makers... it's good to hear you are always striving to make a better knife in addition to your skills in the art of it.

some of my rant, about the focus on art is because i see it so much.. nothing ever plain looking is cosidered attractive anymore. If Ruana were making knives today he might be thought of as unimportant or rendered obselete because his style isn't as dramatic as most. Certainly nothing that would be on the cover of a magazine..

I also am interested in Lin's comments about form following function, that a knife made well and for an intended purpose will usually look good, the lines, flow and texture.

Thank you xuesheng, I appreciate the information.

Roger,
..If I've made statements that have offended your taste I'm sorry, my intentions were to perhaps magnify the art for the sake of art, as opposed to the knife as a tool.. and you're right, maybe it's not either.. can be both, or usually is.. But, how do you know? Just, would like to hear how makers improve performance. But, if no one ever cuts w/ most of these knives. Maybe it's a moot point.
David

STeven,
hello, yes it's me 2knife.. my account got stuck somehow and can't figure how to login or unlock it. a real bummer. but, yes here i am.

You guys who dismiss Ed Fowler, shouldn't.. he's one who has been working to improve the forged blade for a long time. A real pioneer and man of vision. I would have no interest in this stuff had I not been inspired by his life, and story w/ knives. One of the reasons I have so many unresolved feelings about the ABS as an organization is that it can call itself an organization w/ the goals of the advancement of the forged blade and yet not honor one who has put in so much time, effort, and inspired and taught so many aspiring bladesmiths. .. for another time. But, how many have you have read the $50 knife shop? .. hasn't Wayne Goddard deserved to be up there in the hallowed "Hall of Fame" ?

 

[Joss]

Nobody is dismissing Ed Fowler, his life or his knives. We have had several threads about him and his knives, but this is not one of them. The only thing I am saying is that his research is empirical and is fundamentally limited. It doesn't mean it doesn't get some worthy results, but it does mean that he cannot be considered at the peak of the performance blade, as far as I'm concerned.

I have read the Wayne Goddard books as well as Ed's, and they're good books. They're not the best, but they're good.

If you had a bit more experience of the top makers at the ABS, you would realize that Ed (and Wayne to some extent) are at odds with the current trends. That's not a bad thing, but it's very immature to deplore that the ABS would not recognize them as much as you'd like. Most makers, whether in the org or outside of it, have come to peace with the fact that the org has a political component and promote de facto a specific style of blade. Some (Zowada, Fikes, etc) have decided they're better off outside the org. Others (K. Cashen,...) have learned to take the good and leave behind what they don't like. No maker that I know has ever whined that they or others were not properly recognized.

 

[RogerP]

Roger,
..If I've made statements that have offended your taste I'm sorry, my intentions were to perhaps magnify the art for the sake of art, as opposed to the knife as a tool.. and you're right, maybe it's not either.. can be both, or usually is.. But, how do you know? Just, would like to hear how makers improve performance. But, if no one ever cuts w/ most of these knives. Maybe it's a moot point.
David

I am not offended and by no means expect everyone to share my taste in knives or anything else for that mattter. I do find it baffling that you claim to see nothing but fancy knives everywhere. If you can't find several good, plain working knives then you simply can't be looking very hard. Or in the right places. Like a knife show, for example.

As for how I know that my fancy knives would perform if called upon: 1) I am quite familiar with the methodology of the makers I work with; 2) the makers test the blades before they leave the shop, 3) in many cases, I own "user grade" offerings from many of these same makers. My Burt Foster Blue Collar hunter - which is about as simple as a knife can get (though still beautiful in its own right - which aspect I gather you would deplore) cuts like a laser and holds an edge extremely well. My "fancy" Burt Foster integral with gold pins and spacer will not see use, but I know that it would cut as well if called upon. Personally, I do not consider it a "moot" point, merely because I do not plan to get that one dirty.

Like I said, I think we just see things differently.

Roger

 

[Grapevine]

As I understand it from reading alot of the ranked ABS makers, they test the cutting of their blades before putting on the final fit and finish. They don't test each blade to destructive bending of course, since then you'd never get a finished knife, but each blade gets cutting test before being finished, while some blades are taken to destructive tests to ensure that their general methods work or new methods are getting better results. So even though the knife will become a safe queen for a collector, it was tested. I don't think production knives get that kind of attention.

BTW, I've handled some Ruana knives and to me their geometry is lacking in the cutting department. I don't know if they're designed and built for things like heavy chopping which would require geometry that compromises cutting, so I won't judge them as being not up to par. But in your posts you mention cutting alot, so if you're using that as your criteria and Ruana as a benchmark example, then I think your benchmark is kinda low.

If you're using Ruana just as an example of "plain" looking, then that's another thing. That then goes into aesthetics or what's plain and what's "art," and you haven't given examples of what you consider art knives that aren't functional yet. To me, Ruana is plain and somewhat ugly. Not my style. Coupled with the lackluster cutting geometry means I wouldn't buy one. Marbles to me are even plainer looking, yet I do like their looks much better than Ruanas. Design aesthetics and viewpoints at work there. Marbles grind geometry works very well in cutting, hence I have a couple of them in my using collection.

 

[Kohai999]

No maker that I know has ever whined that they or others were not properly recognized.

Ed told me that he would LIKE to be in the Hall of Fame, but didn't ever think that it would happen.

Please don't judge Ed for what one of his sycophants says in BladeForums, this is not Ed whining here.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[jdm61]

Joss.....I must differ with you slightly regarding your statement about the ABS. My perception has been that the Guild was afflicted with what I would consider "politics" over the last 10 years or so and suffered mightily as a result. I compare the 1994-94 Guild shows in Orlando with the one I attended in 2005 and see the sparse attendance by members and wonderwhat happened. The "problem" that I see with the ABS is that it was essentially "forged" (ha, ha) by one mans vision.....Bill Moran. But in my opinion, this is not actually a bad thing. Admittedly, it is difficult to have "politics" in an organization that is pretty much an "oligarchy" run by a Board that is not subject to election. But one cannot argue with success. The ABS has been dominated stylistically to some degree by a select few makers, most notably Mr. Moran and Jerry Fisk. However, the same could be said about Bob Loveless' influence on knifemakers who make knives by stock removal (and many who forge, at least those who make drop point hunters) The one bias that the ABS definately has is one AGAINST hollow ground blades. That is one that I don't have an issue with, but many people do. Another "bias" that I do agree with is the tendency for the ABS to require that knives presented for JS and MS judging to be nominally "functional" as cutting tools no matter how fancy they are. What i like most about the ABS is the educational mission that has always been a the core of the organization's philosophy. It differs from other organizations in that there is almost no concept of a "trade secret" in the ABS. With that said, it has been my opinion for a while that the ABS should take a little chance and expand the scope of MS test requirements and give makers the option of several types of knives to choose from for their Master knife. I am personally somewhat indifferent about the quillion dagger and feel that some makers "cut corners" in the blade design department in order to get that "perfect" fit, finish and symmetry. I notice this in daggers that essentially have parallel edges for most of the blade length and then taper abrubtly at the point. My suggestion (which nobody asked me for....lol) would be to allow makers to choose from a short list of difficult to make styles of highly embellished blades made from various materials other than just the 300+ layer pattern welded steel.....the ones that come to mind are the quillion and Baselard daggers, a katana or wakizashi made in the traditional fashion, a wootz jambiya, a Viking broadsword, a basket hilt rapier, a Michael Price style dagger........you get the idea. If you look at what Master smiths do after passing the test, I think you can safely say that there is no danger in the organization stagnating. I would just like to see them mix it up a bit Why should a Japanese, Arab, Indonesian or Indian smith be denied an MS stamp merely because he chooses not to make a western style knife from western style materiels? or for that matter, denied a JS stamp because he chooses to use tradtional steels as opposed to modern plain carbon steel?

 

[DWinkler]

A lot of fine knifemakers both bladesmiths and stock removal makers say they extensively test their knives for optimum performance. I'm sure many do. I am equally sure others just say they do. The fact is most custom knives never cut anything. Some customer’s care others do not. If you want assurance that you are buying a knife from a maker that actually does strive to take performance to the highest level he is capable of then look for a maker that publicly puts his money where his mouth is. Demonstrations and competitions publicly demonstrate that a maker is pushing the limits without the uncertainty of, is he just talking hype. It is true that many of these “competition“ knives are specialized, but the steel, heat-treating, handle design, blade and edge geometry are all relative to any working knife.

Daniel

 

[DCM]

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question... who are the knifemakers who don't care much for high art in their making, and focus more on the utility working knife?

I read the write up on Lin Rhea in Blade, who's knives pictured really seem to speak of flow and beauty of form more than something more obvious. And, he's done very well in the cutting competitions so you know he makes it a priority that the knife perform well. As, for what I'm getting, most makers.. even if they offer a multitude of stylist variations or embellishments.

Knives w/ squarish handles, sharp spines and guards, anything that is done purely for decorative reasons at the expense of function is what I would consider an art knife. Define it however you want... it doesn't mean that these knives are bad, or inferior ... just that somewhere along the path, the art became what I would consider too important (personal opinion). OR, with some of the styles of knives, made w/ certain functions.. maybe I don't understand the purpose of the pattern. There's one of these knives I would call an art knife on the cover of Blade this month. No one could, or would use that knife too long before they would start feeling blisters.

Someone who's knives are full of contour and flow, and seem to have a real user friendly quality are Ken Onion. Distinct form and eventhough they are highly decorated, indicate that he understands a good balance of function and art.

...and it's just my opinion. Just like ol' STeven offers his all the damn time.

Thank you for all the good participation in this thread, and i appreciate the good instruction.
David

 

[ADD]

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question... who are the knifemakers who don't care much for high art in their making, and focus more on the utility working knife?

Dozier, Dozier, and Dozier.
He made a philosophical decision to make a working knife for a fair price.
Not that he can't make polished customs at the higher end but his stated focus is to make a hard working knife that cuts as a primary goal.
There are others but none with as high a profile and respect in the knife making community (IMHO) that I am aware of.

 

[Joss]

Maybe I'm asking the wrong question... who are the knifemakers who don't care much for high art in their making, and focus more on the utility working knife?

I wouldn't know as I have as little interest for those as I have for those who only care about esthetics but not one iota about cutting ability. In my opinion, even Dozier and Fowler do have an eye for pleasant esthetics, though in Fowler's case it takes a clear back seat.

I have 2 knives that were made specifically as pack knives, completely functional. One was made by Terry Primos and the other by Nick Wheeler. Because they were made with this specific task in mind, they share the following characteristics:
- Impeccable heat treatment, single edge mid size blade,
- Micarta handle and (important) micarta single guard,
- Lanyard hole.

They have a certain elegance because, as mentioned previously, we find pleasing what is well adapted to its function, but they're no art knives.

Ed's choice of his handle material is in large part esthetic, not functional. Anyone who's used a knife in cold weather knows that brass (or any metal) isn't very comfortable to the finger (because it feels much colder than a guard made of micarta or similar material). The sheep horn is obviously more practical than pearl or ivory, but it isn't as practical as many synthetic materials.

 

[Joss]

Joe - any organization with 3 people or more has a political component to it. Trust me, the ABS isn't free from politics. Most of the time, it doesn't reach a self-destructive level, but there's politics nonetheless, and enough of it that it has driven away some people. Just talk to a few old timers.

 

[Stephen F]

Knives w/ squarish handles, sharp spines and guards, anything that is done purely for decorative reasons at the expense of function is what I would consider an art knife. David

So by your definition any fighter is an art knife, you know .... the angular handles to prevent slipping and aid easy rotation, sharpened clips and spines for penetration, s guards to trap opponents blades and deflect ....

Stop trying to be provocactive and put some thought into your points rather than asking open ended questions. Your questions appear to be largely rhetorical ........ so please supply the names of makers you have already identified as fitting your criteria ...... then ask for opinions on their work, you may even find someone who actually has examples and can offer first hand user inputs.

Stephen

 

[Geode]

From my experience, virtually every knifemaker is into continuously improving the performance of their blades.