Makers who focus on better blade performance?

[Jose Reyes]

Jose,

Before the weather gets cold enough that a brass guard will be harmful, there's going to be a time when it will be just cold enough for it to be uncomfortably cold, in a numbing way. I am not going to waste time demonstrating to you that brass and horn are choices that have significant esthetics components (yes, to the expense of the practicality). They are probably good compromises, but it still means that the choice has not been dictated entirely by practicality - which was the point I was making.

Okay, I wouldn't want you to waste your time...

Also forgot to add in my last posts how I too was surprised by Terry's decision to stop making knives and thought he was progressing a lot over the last few years.

 

[Gene Martin]

As a maker, I guess my questions for David would be these: are we supposed to destruction test every other, every third or which knife? We learn the charcteristics of our steels, what they will and won't do, and then try to make sure that whatever we make will do whatever job is put before it. And if we make utility knives, are we forbidden to ever have a really creative day and make what some might consider an art knife? What regular testing would you recommend?

I was amazed when I became a maker at the number of makers that aren't users. That struck me as just plain wrong. I was a user, still am, and make users, no matter how fancy they may or may not appear.

So to qualify as a a "real maker" who makes users and is forbidden art knives. what scientic method do you propose? Aside from my own testing and experimentattion, I give a knife to a Marine or game warden periodically to be tested. That means to take it out and work the heck out of it with real world use. That is a real test in a real world. Cutting ropes is fine, or chopping 2x4's, stabbing ping pong balls has more to do with hand eye coordination than anything else, and I don't plan on chopping my drinking water in half.

So where should we take our creativity and what test should we do? To be scientific rather than anecdotal they have to be observable, measurable and repeatable.

Perhaps you should try scratch building a knife and doing your own testing, then coming back for round two.

With that I will relinquesh to soap box.

Gene

 

[RogerP]

I'd like to add that I don't believe David is attempting to start any trouble or hide his true identity. He may have come off as a bit overzealous but his change of "handle" was not for "trollish" reasons.

Well, I don't know what reasons inform his change of handle, but I've seen a fair bit of trollishness in his posts, to wit:

Damascus is a gimmick. so far, that's what i consider art in knives in the clearest example. Because it offers nothing, and is truly worth nothing. No advantage, purely artisitic.. But, the clearest example of the component of the art itself. What it adds to the imagination is argueable, but does it ever really do anything for any knife?

C'mon, when you add it up, it sounds a lot like an under-the-bridge dweller. It sure would be easy to come out and ask for recommendations for makers of simple, hard-using knives. It wouldn't exactly take the combined efforts of a poet, philosopher and politician to phrase the question just so. But instead we get a lot fist-thumping about how all art knives are crap, how the makers of same are soulless sellouts, how damascus is a gimmick (in bold, in case we missed it) and how the ABS sucks. I appreciate you trying to cut the guy some slack Jose, but please.

Roger

 

[Ed Schempp]

There are a few things that you can do with Damascus or laminates that you can't achieve in homogenous steel.

You can use a deep hardening and shallow hardening steel in a mix yielding an extremely strong durable blade.

You can San Mai or laminate a low to mid Carbon clad to a high Carbon core and achieve a synergy of the different steels.

Some of the clad materials I use are Mosaic and pattern welded steel that add an esthetic beauty to the knife. I use a San Mai mix of 15N-20 clad over a 52100 core with a banite/martinsitic structure to compete in the International Cutting Competition Trail against CPM M4 and other high alloy steels that have to be retired after a number of contests and practicing because of work hardening.

This information can be demonstrated and recreated; and is of my own personal experience...Take Care...Ed

 

[RogerP]

Ed, you wouldn't happen to have a picture of that San Mai competition knife, would you?

Roger

 

[Ed Schempp]

I'm using the 4th redesign on my camp/competition knife that will be produced by Spyderco and it their policy to hold pictures until production. In a few days one of the folks who posted on this thread will own the 2nd generation cutter. It is pinned striped Damascus clad 52100 San Mai. Thanks for the interest...Take Care...Ed

 

[Jose Reyes]

I'm using the 4th redesign on my camp/competition knife that will be produced by Spyderco and it their policy to hold pictures until production. In a few days one of the folks who posted on this thread will own the 2nd generation cutter. It is pinned striped Damascus clad 52100 San Mai. Thanks for the interest...Take Care...Ed

Thanks, Ed! Yes, I'll post pictures, I'm so excited I can hardly wait... I know some guys complain about waiting but it just adds to the anticipation in my case.

 

[Doug C]

Jose, :thumbup: Congrats on your new acquisition,very interested in seeing images of it. Pinned striped Damascus!!

I use a San Mai mix of 15N-20 clad over a 52100 core with a banite/martinsitic structure to compete in the International Cutting Competition Trail against CPM M4 and other high alloy steels that have to be retired after a number of contests and practicing because of work hardening.

This information can be demonstrated and recreated; and is of my own personal experience...Take Care...Ed

Thanks Ed,interesting about M4 and the others.

Doug

 

[RogerP]

Thanks, Ed! Yes, I'll post pictures, I'm so excited I can hardly wait... I know some guys complain about waiting but it just adds to the anticipation in my case.

You lucky sonofagun! You realize pics are mandatory, don't you?

Roger

PS - Thanks Ed.

 

[Jose Reyes]

Hehe, thanks guys, I promise some pics. It's probably the longest order I've had to wait for, he was working on gen 1 at the time, but definitely worth it. :thumbup:

 

[DCM]

In reading a lot of the posts, I see that I have been criticized for the statements I made about damascus.. Maybe I shouldn't have said the statements, but i was only saying what I felt to be the truth, however misguided.. I am learning to appreciate damascus, some knives really look beautiful. And, it is good to hear posts from people who know it has served their knives w/ a practical advantage. I like natural materials, but like Joss says, even these always are not the perhaps the absolute best of materials for every environment.. however like the Neanderthal knives, have been around for thousands of years.

So, far I do understand that I am still a newbie, maybe a closed minded one at that. And, i should try my hand at making knives.. the only direct experience I've had has come from a free ABS clinic down here, it was fun and bladesmith Stacy Apelt, AG Barnes, and Larry Harley helped coach me through my first knife. I feel guilty, because I haven't been as grateful to these men or the organiztion in words on this thread... feel like a bit of a hypocrit or ingrate..

I appreciate the good comments from everyone on this thread, live and learn... Sorry, I started a food fight.

STeven,
To me, you still have a propensity for being an arse. (And i hope you will get well soon. )

Roger, I definitely have reared my ugly side in regards to the taste issue and how I've been slanted against the art knife. It's just one of those things I struggle w/ and perhaps should not have even mentioned on this thread. I'm not a jerk, at least try not to be.. but, this for some reason has just made me say whatever i felt, for good or bad. And, I could be wrong about everything. (You still owe me a beer at the Blade Show.. what I really am trying to get at

So, San Mai damascus is good stuff, huh?
David

 

[RogerP]

David, if I make it to Blade you can count on that beer.

Roger

 

[DCM]

I would still like to hear how knifemakers go about improving the performance and how they test their blades.. how many, how much of the time are tested to destruction? .. i've heard that some will chop bones w/ them, hemp rope tests, .. it would be good to hear some results and conclusions, comparisons w/ different steels, different grinds, etc..

I have no idea how the majority of makers test and improve their steel and cut, for those that forge. When i see it is forged 1084 by a ABS Journeysmith or Mastersmith for example, is there just a standard heat treat that is the "accepted" method? ..or is possible, to improve the steel w/ different heat treating methods similar to what Ed Fowler does w/ 52100, using ultra-grain refinement and transition zones?
David

 

[DCM]

Looking through the listings in Knives 2007, these are some of the bladesmiths A-H I noticed who indicated some kind of performance goals w/ their knifemaking: (many others just say "working/using knives.." )

A.W. Amoureux
David Banks
John Bartlow
Dave Ber
David Boyle
Raymond Boysen
Jimmie Buckner
Bill Burke
Murray Carter
RW Clark
Bob Cumming
Jan Dox
Thomas Enos
Dick Faust
Burt Foster
Ed Fowler
Lonnie Hansen
Phil Hartsfield


.. will add H-Z, later.

If any can post knife pictures from any of these makers, I'd appreciate seeing them.

Do most makers heat treat their own knives?.. many of the listings added "does own heat treat".
David

 

[Keith Montgomery]

From my experience, most makers do their own heat treatment. However, there are quite a few that send their knives to places like BOS for heat treating.

 

[Kohai999]

From my experience, most makers do their own heat treatment. However, there are quite a few that send their knives to places like BOS for heat treating.

If we are talking about forge guys, yes.

Most stock removal/stainless steel using-makers send their stuff out for heat treat.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[DCM]

Before this became about damascus, (admittedly my own fault) , i really did have a sincere interest in knowing which makers choose to focus on the performance of their knives. ..Still interested to know who is more interested in how the knife cuts, than how it looks. So far, it's a short list..

Just say "me", if you're one of those makers.
David

 

[Ed Schempp]

Yes there are those that wish to make a pretty knife first and may rely on the quality of the steel and the reputation of the heat treater for performance. Paul Bos heat treated many stainless blades for me, some came back with as many as 11 rockwell test marks.

Those that test their blades will probably differentiate amoung blade geometries for application.

There are a wide range of heat treats availible for Carbon steels. This gives a bladesmith many opportunities to tweek preformance for application. My rockwell tester has given me a lot of information in tests and understanding of steel.

After spending years experimenting with steel I choose to make pretty-high performance steel; business wise it pays better than going through the effort with homogenous steels. I like the challenge and the reward of making Damascus steels; it keeps my interest high and keeps me motivated. If a person is interested in performance then they will always come back to that value. Where ever a maker might be technically it will appear right with the makers values, in their work; if it is truly a value.

Please keep right on for your search for outstanding performance. However I urge you not to overlook some very high performance "art" pieces...Take Care...Ed

 

[Jose Reyes]

As promised here's a couple of <crappy> pics of my new knife from Ed. Luckily one of my buddies is going to take some pro pics for me so those should be up in a few days. The new one is on top. The other two I've had about 5 or 6 years now. I "garssonized" the handle on the one in the middle shortly after purchase but wound up taking away too much material and had the handle snap on me while I was doing some limbing. Luckily no harm was done and Ed was kind enough to repair it for me. He used some ironwood and a mosaic buttcap and I think it looks better now than with the original handle. The lower blade was one he used to win a hemp rope competition with.

There's also a pic of my Fowler "performance" camp/bowie knives, and a real nice bare blade I bought from Eldon Perkins that I wanted to put together. Another buddy is helping me along with that project after about a year < > without much progress, but I'll be shaping the handle all by myself...

 

[Kevin Jones]

Thanks for the photos Jose.
You have quite a Fowler collection. :thumbup: