Makers who focus on better blade performance?

[jdm61]

Joe - any organization with 3 people or more has a political component to it. Trust me, the ABS isn't free from politics. Most of the time, it doesn't reach a self-destructive level, but there's politics nonetheless, and enough of it that it has driven away some people. Just talk to a few old timers.

I guess a better way of putting it is that the "politics" are limited to a small insular group and the rest of the membership only has the option of "voting with their feet" which obviously some have done. Although I am normally opposed to any type of "dictatorship", benign or otherwise, you are correct about the ABS tempering the self destructive impulses inherent to art in general. As far as i know, we have not seen an "outflow" of members leaving that exceeds the number of new people joining. That cannot be said for some other organizations in a number of fields of endeavor. I cannot help but notice that one of the founding fathers of the ABS has not been around the organization for a goodly number of years, although I know he has still been very much in the public eye, insofar as anyone in our hobby/trade can be. I have no personal knowlege as to what problems Mr.Bagwell had, but all parties have apparently moved on. He still gets good press in the official ABS history of the founding of the organization. As I would never claim to be an "artist", I guess that it is easier for me not to get excited or worked up about things. I read some contentious things posted here and elsewhere, but in the end, i have gained a great amount of knowlege even from the folks who strongly disagree with each other. I try to make "working" knives that won't scare a potential customer with their appearance........not there yet. Knives are still a tad ugly and ihave not sold any by choice One of these days I would like to make a fancy bowie or two, but they will still be suitable for their intended purpose........even if that requires you to get yourself a time machine and go back to circa 1850 New Orleans or Natchez and pick a fight with someone.....lol. All I can say is that even with the frustration that all of us experience learning how to do this craft, i am having fun.....when I am not injuring myself The ABS guys that I have come to know have been incredibly helpful. At this point, I just want to make a knife that cuts and ain't uglier than than homemade sin....lol.

 

[jdm61]

I too would like to make improvements on the many different facets of knifemaking. For the time being I consider myself to be a contented student of those that came before me, but all the while proving and reproving the things learned.
If I had to give examples of what I consider improvements to my work, I would say :

Handle design for intended purpose
Edge Geometry for specific types of cutting
Balance of form and function


For me the artistic aspect of knifemaking cannot be ignored. Not because I fancy myself as an "artist". But because form does follow function. Its just a fact of nature. A knife that performs well for it's intended purpose, usually also looks good to the eye. At least in line, flow, and texture. Color can be a different matter but it can still apply in a lot of cases. When either form OR function is over emphasized things get out of balance and the overall desirablity of the knife suffers. These factors are what makes knifemaking a real challenge for me and what hold my rapt attention. Lin

Yeah, Lin, but your functional blades look GOOD and we newbie hacks resent you for it lol...just kidding....we actually aspire to be able to do work like yours:thumbup:

 

[DCM]

Stephen,
..sorry about that. sorry, I can't give you any names, this thread is largely exploratory for me. and the conversation has proved interesting..
Damascus is a gimmick. so far, that's what i consider art in knives in the clearest example. Because it offers nothing, and is truly worth nothing. No advantage, purely artisitic.. But, the clearest example of the component of the art itself. What it adds to the imagination is argueable, but does it ever really do anything for any knife?

ADD, i hear you loud and clear.. someday I plan to buy a Dozier, it has been on my short list.

jdm61,
you have been like a breath of fresh air, in a tired arguement it's good to hear your thoughts.

Joss,
is Terry Primos still making knives?.. maybe one thing we can agree on,, i did like the style of his knives
David

 

[Joss]

Ed makes damascus knives.

 

[RogerP]

is Terry Primos still making knives?.. maybe one thing we can agree on,, i did like the style of his knives
David

I liked his style too:

And to my knowledge, Terry is no longer making knives. A most regrettable state of affairs.

Roger

 

[Joss]

Roger - this knife is clearly a gimmick!

 

[Kohai999]

Stephen,
..sorry about that. sorry, I can't give you any names, this thread is largely exploratory for me. and the conversation has proved interesting..

Damascus is a gimmick. so far, that's what i consider art in knives in the clearest example. Because it offers nothing, and is truly worth nothing. No advantage, purely artisitic..

jdm61,
you have been like a breath of fresh air, in a tired arguement it's good to hear your thoughts.

David

1. David, you have been around enough to do a "search" on just about anything on BladeForums. You are just too lazy, and boneheaded to absorb it all. It scares me that you are a teacher and parent, in the same way that it scares me that "reconseed" may become an officer in the U.S. Armed Forces some day.

2. Damascus is not "simply" artistic. There are many things that it can do that are cool, not the least of which is offer a "toothier" edge depending upon the pattern orientation. You have maintained the "useles artistic" position for I don't know how long. Did you ever obtain and read Feigel's book on damascus that was recommended to you?

3. You started this discussion, you did not identify yourself as a known member of this community, and if you find the arguments tired, than you should stick to Ed's forums, where the rest of the sycophants collude. Frankly, you are acting like a newb troll.:grumpy:

Best Regards,

STeven"always a damned opinion"Garsson

 

[Kevin Jones]

Damascus is a gimmick. so far, that's what i consider art in knives in the clearest example. Because it offers nothing, and is truly worth nothing. No advantage, purely artisitic.. But, the clearest example of the component of the art itself. What it adds to the imagination is argueable, but does it ever really do anything for any knife?

An ugly, uninteresting world this would be if more shared your views.
I could say more, however your comments are not worthy of the effort.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

There have been cutting competitions won with knives with pattern welded blades. Pattern welded steel may not be superior, but it's not inferior either.

 

[Larrin]

This thread could have been interesting but has ended up being.....well, not.
I think there are makers that don't do systematic testing of knives, and even makers that don't even use their knives. However, there are many knifemakers that at least use their knives and know how well they perform. What I find is interesting is when they also use tests that give them numbers to increase or improve on (number of cuts, degrees of flex, etc.); I have a numbers, or information based personality, and that is what I really like. I don't respond as well to "I used the knife and it cuts well," but if the maker is using his knives and improving on them I still respect that. Wayne Goddard was one of the original knife testers in my opinion, not "the" original, but his books and testing inspired many others to test their knives, and he made sure to test his knives for the aspects he found most important: Edge geometry, edge holding, and toughness: both edge and overall blade. For one example of a knifemaker he influenced at least in part: Ed Fowler. I can respect any knifemaker that tests his knives and tries to improve them, whether I agree with his philosophies or even his testing methods. When a maker makes what I consider knives that wouldn't cut anything, and claims to test his knives in multiple ways to produce the best knife possible, then I have to question his methods and possibly his honesty. The more interesting thing to do, though, is to look at many makers that test their knives and to find the common denominators.

 

[RWS]

I love this Neanderthal view of what a knife oughta be.:thumbup:

If you want non-Damascus and non-artistic, hereya go! They'll function just fine as you scurry along the forest looking for dinner in shrubs and along the banks of that stream over yonder.

 

[Kevin Jones]

I love this Neanderthal view of what a knife oughta be.:thumbup:

If you want non-Damascus and non-artistic, hereya go! They'll function just fine as you scurry along the forest looking for dinner in shrubs and along the banks of that stream over yonder.

My thoughts exactly.:thumbup:

 

[Stephen F]

I love this Neanderthal view of what a knife oughta be.:thumbup:

If you want non-Damascus and non-artistic, hereya go! They'll function just fine as you scurry along the forest looking for dinner in shrubs and along the banks of that stream over yonder.

I personally will not be cutting my nails for a while and also sharpening my teeth

Stephen

 

[canineforge]

I hope '2knife' isn't related to '2toes' because I respect him.
It doesn't take long to see where this thread is headed. It is okay to admire Ed and his work, but I don't think any of us need any of it shoved down our throats.

- Joe

 

[Jose Reyes]

I wouldn't know as I have as little interest for those as I have for those who only care about esthetics but not one iota about cutting ability. In my opinion, even Dozier and Fowler do have an eye for pleasant esthetics, though in Fowler's case it takes a clear back seat.

I have 2 knives that were made specifically as pack knives, completely functional. One was made by Terry Primos and the other by Nick Wheeler. Because they were made with this specific task in mind, they share the following characteristics:
- Impeccable heat treatment, single edge mid size blade,
- Micarta handle and (important) micarta single guard,
- Lanyard hole.

They have a certain elegance because, as mentioned previously, we find pleasing what is well adapted to its function, but they're no art knives.

Ed's choice of his handle material is in large part esthetic, not functional. Anyone who's used a knife in cold weather knows that brass (or any metal) isn't very comfortable to the finger (because it feels much colder than a guard made of micarta or similar material). The sheep horn is obviously more practical than pearl or ivory, but it isn't as practical as many synthetic materials.

Joss,

Your point on any metal becoming cold is a good one but what are the chances that you wouldn't be wearing any gloves if the temperature was low enough for the guard to become harmful to your skin? I've worked as a lineman and during the wintertime nuts and stuff would stick to your fingers in the same fashion Jeff Goldbloom's tongue stuck to the ski lift in Dumb and Dumber so we'd have to wear gloves. Getting paid by the foot and wanting to work quickly was the reason we preferred to work without gloves but once the mercury dropped to a certain point we'd put some gloves on.

As far as the horn is concerned I believe it to be a very practical material and if used properly will be ergonomic and comfortable. I don't know what the complete specs would be when comparing horn to micarta but grip is one area in which I consider horn superior. As far as aesthetics is concerned, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like the look of horn but wouldn't disagree with anyone who didn't like the look or feel of it.

 

[jdm61]

My take is a bit different. I am NOT a fan of wild art/fantasy knives. However, I am very fond of "art" knives by guys like Bill Moran and Jerry Fisk, to name two. No matter how fancy the knife or how exotic the materiels, the knife will still function as a knife if the need arises. The example i used on another post was that if, by chance, you are attacked by a Russian boar on the
streets of Manhattan while going to put your big Moran ST24 and Fisk damascus German hunting sword back in the safety deposit box at Bessemer Trust, you will be able to adequately defend yourself against said crotchety porcine varmint The one caveat I have is that I'm not sure i like the idea of makers having to warn customers that if they use the pretty, pretty pure nickel to get that shiny silver look in the damscus, it will diminish the cutting ability of the blade. Even if i am afraid to use the knife, like I am with a few in my collection, i want to be able to rely on it if the need ever arises.

 

[Jose Reyes]

So by your definition any fighter is an art knife, you know .... the angular handles to prevent slipping and aid easy rotation, sharpened clips and spines for penetration, s guards to trap opponents blades and deflect ....

Stop trying to be provocactive and put some thought into your points rather than asking open ended questions. Your questions appear to be largely rhetorical ........ so please supply the names of makers you have already identified as fitting your criteria ...... then ask for opinions on their work, you may even find someone who actually has examples and can offer first hand user inputs.

Stephen

Hi Stephen,

I don't think you're being entirely fair to David. Angular as in having a dropped handle and having hard corners or sharp edges are different. Think of dehorning in handguns, a Clark Meltdown would be a good example, and that's more along the lines of what I think he's talking about. I do beleive that it's something new makers tend to do before they become proficient, take a handle that still has the relative shape of the block of wood they were fashioned from but with the edges slightly rounded, although it seems to be done at times for aesthetic reasons.

I'd like to add that I don't believe David is attempting to start any trouble or hide his true identity. He may have come off as a bit overzealous but his change of "handle" was not for "trollish" reasons.

 

[leon.pugh]

Tom, I don't mean this as a derog toward you because you are partially right, but asking other people their oppinions help accelerate the learning process. The question that Dave ask is a good one, I agree, with enough reading and research he would eventually figure it out himself, but for while he would be thrown off course by lot of hype and false claims. Many people on this site could give him a great deal of solid info reguarding his question right here. I do not feel quallified to speak about other knife makers in this reguard because it would be at best second hand information. However I think there are many here that are qualified to help point him in the right direction.

Leon Pugh

 

[Jose Reyes]

All,

I'd like to aknowledge Mr. Winkler's post and agree that the first thing that came to mind would be to check out the knives of guys in the cutting comps. I was lucky enough to be in attendance when he tried for the world championship a couple of years ago and did admire the utilitarian, no frills, blade he used and I did have the chance to examine it.

As far as damascus is concerned I think it can be done in at least two ways with one being more functional than the other, IMO. It's been explained to me that the differences in wear can help with function if done in a certain way. Ed may have some old damascus stock laying around but as far as I know it's been a while since he's used it and prefers to work with homogenous steel.

Steve, I'm prescribing a chill pill followed swiftly by two beers... I'm working on my second Belgian so don't take offense!

Larrin & Joe :thumbup:

 

[Joss]

Joss,

Your point on any metal becoming cold is a good one but what are the chances that you wouldn't be wearing any gloves if the temperature was low enough for the guard to become harmful to your skin?. I've worked as a lineman and during the wintertime nuts and stuff would stick to your fingers in the same fashion Jeff Goldbloom's tongue stuck to the ski lift in Dumb and Dumber so we'd have to wear gloves. Getting paid by the foot and wanting to work quickly was the reason we preferred to work without gloves but once the mercury dropped to a certain point we'd put some gloves on.

As far as the horn is concerned I believe it to be a very practical material and if used properly will be ergonomic and comfortable. I don't know what the complete specs would be when comparing horn to micarta but grip is one area in which I consider horn superior. Af far as aesthetics is concerned, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like the look of horn but wouldn't disagree with anyone who didn't like the look or feel of it.

Jose,

Before the weather gets cold enough that a brass guard will be harmful, there's going to be a time when it will be just cold enough for it to be uncomfortably cold, in a numbing way. I am not going to waste time demonstrating to you that brass and horn are choices that have significant esthetics components (yes, to the expense of the practicality). They are probably good compromises, but it still means that the choice has not been dictated entirely by practicality - which was the point I was making.