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Daniel, exactly what I was talking about. A supplier member level for people providing woods & composites & steel, perhaps a Service Provider one for heat treaters, photographers, etc.
Membership changes, was New Policy: You sell knifemaker's products, you are a dealer
- Thread starter Spark
- Start date
I personally find it rather offensive to see advertising anywhere, particularly in forums, especially in huge colored letters. If you make it any cheaper, (and make no mistake, $200 is a steal for this size of audience), then every Tom, Dick and Josh will be hawking their trinkets on this forum.
At least the current price point weeds out the bottom feeders.
At least the current price point weeds out the bottom feeders.
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If you have a site up for sales of items, you are a dealer.
This is not that hard to grasp. I do not even see a fuzzy line here between selling as a collector and as a steady means for income.
It is a simple matter of right and wrong.
If you have a few things available for one reason or another and when they are gone they are gone that is casual and is not what Spark is addressing.
If you are in a state of procurement of things for resale on a constant basis that is not casual at all.
This is not that hard to grasp. I do not even see a fuzzy line here between selling as a collector and as a steady means for income.
It is a simple matter of right and wrong.
If you have a few things available for one reason or another and when they are gone they are gone that is casual and is not what Spark is addressing.
If you are in a state of procurement of things for resale on a constant basis that is not casual at all.
J.Mattson
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I remember a thread from a while back in which Josh asked if he should be a dealer.
He got this response back from Spark
The point being hes taken steps in the past to insure that he was within the parameters of his own membership group (basically he wanted to make sure he wasnt screwing anyone).
Being able to order a lanyard from his website doesnt necessarily make him a dealer. What knife maker doesnt have a website that you can order/buy/commission his work? Since both dealers and knife makers have this option, that alone cannot be used as a determining factor.
It seems to me that a craftsman (in any sense of the word) is not a dealer. Ill use my Father as an example. Years ago he was putting me and my 3 brothers through private school on a Cops salary not an easy thing to do so he started a small business to help fund our education.
In the first stage of his business he would buy framed prints from the guy who made them, mark them up and sell then resell them at craft shows and such, this made him a dealer.
In the second stage however he then decided to stop using his supplier and do it himself, the he bought a computerized matt cutter, all sorts of industry specific saws, glass cutters and other things needed to take a simple print and frame it (it really was a big deal the computerized matt cutter alone cost well over $40,000. He stopped being a dealer and became a craftsman, taking what he had made and selling it at the same shows he had sold at before. However in this way he was able to basically make things to order for his customers.
In his last stage he decided to become the person who supplied him in the first stage of his business. He would frame the pictures and then sell them wholesale to people who turned around and resold them (ie dealers). After me and my younger brothers graduated he sold his business and all his equipment (ironically to another cop, trying to put his own kids through private school).
The point I was trying to make is this. If I were to buy lanyards from Josh, 200 at a time and sell them I would be a dealer. He would be the craftsman.
It seems to me that there is a qualitative difference between a someone who buys a finished product and resells it and someone who takes unfinished materials, makes something from them, and then sells it. Be it a lanyard or a framed print.
Naturally whatever Spark decides is fine, its is site. And beyond that I dont think anyone thinks hes trying to screw anyone.
I dont know if any of this made sense, its early and Im a but hung over.
He got this response back from Spark
The point being hes taken steps in the past to insure that he was within the parameters of his own membership group (basically he wanted to make sure he wasnt screwing anyone).
Being able to order a lanyard from his website doesnt necessarily make him a dealer. What knife maker doesnt have a website that you can order/buy/commission his work? Since both dealers and knife makers have this option, that alone cannot be used as a determining factor.
It seems to me that a craftsman (in any sense of the word) is not a dealer. Ill use my Father as an example. Years ago he was putting me and my 3 brothers through private school on a Cops salary not an easy thing to do so he started a small business to help fund our education.
In the first stage of his business he would buy framed prints from the guy who made them, mark them up and sell then resell them at craft shows and such, this made him a dealer.
In the second stage however he then decided to stop using his supplier and do it himself, the he bought a computerized matt cutter, all sorts of industry specific saws, glass cutters and other things needed to take a simple print and frame it (it really was a big deal the computerized matt cutter alone cost well over $40,000. He stopped being a dealer and became a craftsman, taking what he had made and selling it at the same shows he had sold at before. However in this way he was able to basically make things to order for his customers.
In his last stage he decided to become the person who supplied him in the first stage of his business. He would frame the pictures and then sell them wholesale to people who turned around and resold them (ie dealers). After me and my younger brothers graduated he sold his business and all his equipment (ironically to another cop, trying to put his own kids through private school).
The point I was trying to make is this. If I were to buy lanyards from Josh, 200 at a time and sell them I would be a dealer. He would be the craftsman.
It seems to me that there is a qualitative difference between a someone who buys a finished product and resells it and someone who takes unfinished materials, makes something from them, and then sells it. Be it a lanyard or a framed print.
Naturally whatever Spark decides is fine, its is site. And beyond that I dont think anyone thinks hes trying to screw anyone.
I dont know if any of this made sense, its early and Im a but hung over.
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Obviously dealers can sell manufactured products, or goods and raw materials to make them or both of these things and make some of their own too.
Bastid just pointed out the differences, casual vs infrequent and again I don't see much dispute over what is or what is not a dealer here. What I seem to be seeing is a few folks wanting to play but not wanting to pay because they have their focus in the wrong place. What the tool costs is not where you should focus guys. How much it makes is what you should be thinking about and focusing on. What difference does it make for what it costs if it pays your bills in the end? If it costs a penny more to do what you do now after adding this to your cost make it part of your advertising plan and add two pennies more to your selling prices to make up for it. Its an investment that pays you back. How much it costs is how much it costs to do what you want to do in business. If you don't pay it here you will pay it somewhere else.
Welcome to the real world.
STR
Josh K
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And plenty of people have links in their signature line to their own websites, including Knifemakers and other gold / plat members. I didn't purchase this membership to advertise.
Go to any knifemaker website and click on it, how many of them have models for sale? I choose a membership level I though would best describe what I am. I'm here for the community, but sometimes I'll sell a knife or lanyard.
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Josh K
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If I don't (and already did) pay here, I wouldn't pay anywhere else because I don't really gain anything from selling lanyards. I like this site, I love this community, and some people like lanyards. Okay, I'll sell you some lanyards. This isn't a business, and it's not steady.
Dealer examples? Primary source of income is a good example, people that go to shows and sell is a good example.
The way I understood membership levels was making the product made you a maker, buying and reselling the product made you a dealer. Why is there such a big gap between $200 for a dealer and $40 for a knife maker?
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I guess this makes me a dealer too. I work at a place that makes furniture as well as sells burl and figured wood to furniture makers. Since I make knives on occasion I watch for killer stuff that would make good handles. My boss has allowed me to cut up a bunch of wood for knife handle material and I pay him 75% of what the piece sells for.
I even went as far as building a separate website for the knife handle blocks and scales on my own time (unpaid). When I was first starting I provided over 4 dozen stabilized blocks, 1 each for free to any maker who asked as a free evaluation piece. They just paid $5 to cover priority mail shipping. Cutting and stabilizing was done on my own time.
Since then I have sold some blocks and scales in the for sale section. Now it looks like I am considered a dealer so after this post I will close the remaining threads with available pieces. I had just been posting real nice pieces there to give forum members a discounted price and first look at what I considered some of the best pieces.
I will continue my website with the handle materials. Bummer about the changes. I had asked if my circumstances would be ok with a platinum membership before I joined. (membership was paid by me, to most of you $50 is not a lot) Oh well, things change so you gotta roll with the punches.
Thanks to everyone who has bought wood as well as all of you who freely given good advice and encouragement. It's been fun.
Thanks again, Mark
I even went as far as building a separate website for the knife handle blocks and scales on my own time (unpaid). When I was first starting I provided over 4 dozen stabilized blocks, 1 each for free to any maker who asked as a free evaluation piece. They just paid $5 to cover priority mail shipping. Cutting and stabilizing was done on my own time.
Since then I have sold some blocks and scales in the for sale section. Now it looks like I am considered a dealer so after this post I will close the remaining threads with available pieces. I had just been posting real nice pieces there to give forum members a discounted price and first look at what I considered some of the best pieces.
I will continue my website with the handle materials. Bummer about the changes. I had asked if my circumstances would be ok with a platinum membership before I joined. (membership was paid by me, to most of you $50 is not a lot) Oh well, things change so you gotta roll with the punches.
Thanks to everyone who has bought wood as well as all of you who freely given good advice and encouragement. It's been fun.
Thanks again, Mark
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You say this, and your sig line says
Hundreds. Come on man. Look at this from my point of view. If you guys aren't making money at this, you wouldn't be doing it in the first place. So, if you need to tag $1 or $2 on so that you can cover an appropriate membership, I don't know what to tell you.
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Spark,
Please don't take this as a complaint. Just an explanation. I know it sounds like I am whining. "I guess I am". As soon as I can afford to I will upgrade my membership to dealer level. I just can't afford it right now.
The reason why it says I have 100s of pieces available on my site is I have spent quite a few days cutting stuff to provide a worthwhile selection. I have a reasonable boss. But he just wants me to cover my own expenses for what he considers my hobby or maybe just a phase I am going through..
I have no argument with your decision and would love to continue enjoying your forum. No offense was intended and I hope you will accept my apologies for not being articulate enough to keep it from looking that way.
Hopefully still your friend, Mark
J.Mattson
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As a customer a $3 or $4 difference doesnt really factor in to a buying decision if I like the product. If an increases in price along these lines will cover the costs then youve got great exposure at a extremely fare price.
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Guys,
Let's not make that big of a deal about this. Spark is not on a witch hunt nor is he out to increase his cash flow from BFC. I doubt it is in positive territory anyway.
All he is doing is trying to keep the playing field level and fair. As a mod there are days when some mods easily put in 5 or 6 hours into this place and they do it for selfless reasons. Mainly the people who are here.
I do not sell knives very often. I have gone years if not decades in between selling knives out of my collection, but have recently decided to sell a few. People pay for that right to do so here. I felt I needed to pony up for a platinum membership so I could look myself in the mirror and interact with others here without taking advantage of being a mod (already having the ability to post the adds without ponying up for a membership). How much is being made really does not enter into the picture.
It is a simple matter of right and wrong. Spark did not ask me to pony up. He would not have said a word if I did not. Just not his style.
All he is asking for is honesty and ideas to keep things fair. If someone has a steady inventory that they are selling and seek to restock that inventory, they have taken a step beyond a passive hobby into a business. For a business to use this site as a way to introduce or promote product without an appropriate membership level certainly is not fair to the businesses that do the same with an appropriate level of membership.
We should not be having this much difficulty trying to get that point across. I think if we back away from the situation and look at it from the point of view of a group rather than an individual the picture becomes much clearer as to the motivation behind asking for this input and why it is needed for the long term good of the members here.
I am starting a business and a 100 % non-profit org at the end of the month. I hope the business makes a profit and have been working hard to make sure it will. I also hope that the org will do some good, but to expect another entity to help me promote the business or even the org really is not a reasonable expectation on my part.
Let's not make that big of a deal about this. Spark is not on a witch hunt nor is he out to increase his cash flow from BFC. I doubt it is in positive territory anyway.
All he is doing is trying to keep the playing field level and fair. As a mod there are days when some mods easily put in 5 or 6 hours into this place and they do it for selfless reasons. Mainly the people who are here.
I do not sell knives very often. I have gone years if not decades in between selling knives out of my collection, but have recently decided to sell a few. People pay for that right to do so here. I felt I needed to pony up for a platinum membership so I could look myself in the mirror and interact with others here without taking advantage of being a mod (already having the ability to post the adds without ponying up for a membership). How much is being made really does not enter into the picture.
It is a simple matter of right and wrong. Spark did not ask me to pony up. He would not have said a word if I did not. Just not his style.
All he is asking for is honesty and ideas to keep things fair. If someone has a steady inventory that they are selling and seek to restock that inventory, they have taken a step beyond a passive hobby into a business. For a business to use this site as a way to introduce or promote product without an appropriate membership level certainly is not fair to the businesses that do the same with an appropriate level of membership.
We should not be having this much difficulty trying to get that point across. I think if we back away from the situation and look at it from the point of view of a group rather than an individual the picture becomes much clearer as to the motivation behind asking for this input and why it is needed for the long term good of the members here.
I am starting a business and a 100 % non-profit org at the end of the month. I hope the business makes a profit and have been working hard to make sure it will. I also hope that the org will do some good, but to expect another entity to help me promote the business or even the org really is not a reasonable expectation on my part.
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Changed my signature. Sorry if it was offensive.
Josh K
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Every Tom, Dick, and Josh? Taking this a little personal aren't you?
Josh K
Platinum Member
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Supplier isn't a bad idea. Setting up a subset forum in the Makers area (Supplies?) would probably help to. Divide it up by composites, naturals, heat treat (or machining), and misc.
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I am still confused as to what differentiates a dealer and a knifemaker. There are people who sell items, have their own websites, advertise in magazines, and pay $40 a year - they are knifemakers. I am pretty sure they are trying to make a profit, and a quick search will give you a list of 'full-time' makers.
Now, why would a guy making handle scale material pay more than a guy making knives? Resellers I can completely understand, there is the gray area of guys who still handcraft something, but that something doesn't cut stuff. A little lost on why some of you think they should be paying $200 a year.
I think Spark has it right on with adding a new membership category or adjusting the knifemaker one.
Now, why would a guy making handle scale material pay more than a guy making knives? Resellers I can completely understand, there is the gray area of guys who still handcraft something, but that something doesn't cut stuff. A little lost on why some of you think they should be paying $200 a year.
I think Spark has it right on with adding a new membership category or adjusting the knifemaker one.
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Spark, when I sell wood blocks (I buy rough sawn boards, plane them, and cut them into blocks), I sell at super low prices. If I started selling at $1 to $2 more, I wouldn't seem much better than other places like jantz supply or the like. If you want, I can send you via email what my costs and income from this look like, and may understand my situation.
I would gladly pay for a supplier title if it wasn't too high (especially if we could customize what was under our names to say what kind of supplier we generally are)
I just have to say again that when I started selling wood I was under the impression that a knifemaker membership would cover selling knifemaking supplies (no amount was mentioned) and that dealers were the ones who bought bulk commercial knives and sold them on a large scale. I guess what led me to believe that was because the for sale by dealers section only had Production Knives, Semi Production Knives, and Gadgets and Gear.
fod
a la sombra
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For two years I have paid for the platinum membership level here at BF and recently paid for another year.
For two years I have participated under the level of membership that I believed was proper for my my level of involvement here.
For two years there was not a single complaint or expressed opinion opposing my actions what so ever. No Moderators or Staff ever told me I was a dealer and needed to act other wise.
For two years I have minded my manners and tried to keep a tidy area, rarely posting more than one thread in the knifemakers supply area, in addition to selling the occasional knife.
For two years I have quietly built up a positive reputation.
For two years I have believed that I was playing correctly by the rules here and no one ever told me otherwise, including the staff or moderators here at BF
A couple days ago, the definitions or how they were applied changed.
A couple days ago I faced with an unexpected cost without warning, little explanation and when I offered my feedback I was given derisive innuendo and told it is only so much, so just do it. I am a customer here and I have been made to feel unwelcome, and my input unimportant. Oh well. No no a thousand times no, the lapcat tells me.... as I twirl my mustache.:jerkit:
Apparently, for me to continue as I have for the last two years, I would need to pony up $200.
I am very aware that this may be good for me, $200 will have the effect of killing a lot of my competition here. Good for me and I would feel compelled to defend that territory and report all sales I felt were outside of the vague guidelines. Tempting. I'd have access to the Dealers area too. Hmmmm.... I wonder if by being a "dealer" if I could expand my offerings and sell wood also. I know a couple guys who could supply me with some real nice stuff. hmmmmmm.....
Think about this: If you want to diminish the variety of unique small suppliers of various niches, this is an excellent way of going about it. This speaks to the intent of these forums; It is to make money or to foment the advances and variety in the art of knifemaking?
Just in this little hubbub, you look to be losing a handful of paying memberships: A few persons have bowed out of upgrading (not counting me). I don't see too many "dealers" coming in to fill that void. Price hikes will weed out the riff raff and hinder causal hobbyists trying out entrepreneurship.
$50 for platinum level was easy to justify. $200 is more difficult to justify and other options become attractive at this price point. Yes, I run a business and am aware of the costs involved.
For about the same money, other choices become competitive, such as:
For 20 a month I can have my own forum at Jerzee Devil
For 168 I can take out a 6 month classified ad in Blade Mag, which includes online ads
Use the money to attend a knife show
etc...
Of course, just to compare cost of selling on other forums:
Custom Knives and Guns, nothing but participation
Ramonon, nothing
British Blades, nothing
How do I know that I will not become deemed a "manufacturer" and need to pay for a $XXX membership or some other new level for whatever at the whim of the owner or change of definitions.
Don't tell that won't happen, because it just did.
BUT, The following is all I need from you, Spark;
I need to know that the rules are set forth clearly and I need to know that are are be applied fairly and consistently and are not subject to arbitrary change.
After I know this, I will be able to make a well informed decision.
For two years I have participated under the level of membership that I believed was proper for my my level of involvement here.
For two years there was not a single complaint or expressed opinion opposing my actions what so ever. No Moderators or Staff ever told me I was a dealer and needed to act other wise.
For two years I have minded my manners and tried to keep a tidy area, rarely posting more than one thread in the knifemakers supply area, in addition to selling the occasional knife.
For two years I have quietly built up a positive reputation.
For two years I have believed that I was playing correctly by the rules here and no one ever told me otherwise, including the staff or moderators here at BF
A couple days ago, the definitions or how they were applied changed.
A couple days ago I faced with an unexpected cost without warning, little explanation and when I offered my feedback I was given derisive innuendo and told it is only so much, so just do it. I am a customer here and I have been made to feel unwelcome, and my input unimportant. Oh well. No no a thousand times no, the lapcat tells me.... as I twirl my mustache.:jerkit:
Apparently, for me to continue as I have for the last two years, I would need to pony up $200.
I am very aware that this may be good for me, $200 will have the effect of killing a lot of my competition here. Good for me and I would feel compelled to defend that territory and report all sales I felt were outside of the vague guidelines. Tempting. I'd have access to the Dealers area too. Hmmmm.... I wonder if by being a "dealer" if I could expand my offerings and sell wood also. I know a couple guys who could supply me with some real nice stuff. hmmmmmm.....
Think about this: If you want to diminish the variety of unique small suppliers of various niches, this is an excellent way of going about it. This speaks to the intent of these forums; It is to make money or to foment the advances and variety in the art of knifemaking?
Just in this little hubbub, you look to be losing a handful of paying memberships: A few persons have bowed out of upgrading (not counting me). I don't see too many "dealers" coming in to fill that void. Price hikes will weed out the riff raff and hinder causal hobbyists trying out entrepreneurship.
$50 for platinum level was easy to justify. $200 is more difficult to justify and other options become attractive at this price point. Yes, I run a business and am aware of the costs involved.
For about the same money, other choices become competitive, such as:
For 20 a month I can have my own forum at Jerzee Devil
For 168 I can take out a 6 month classified ad in Blade Mag, which includes online ads
Use the money to attend a knife show
etc...
Of course, just to compare cost of selling on other forums:
Custom Knives and Guns, nothing but participation
Ramonon, nothing
British Blades, nothing
How do I know that I will not become deemed a "manufacturer" and need to pay for a $XXX membership or some other new level for whatever at the whim of the owner or change of definitions.
Don't tell that won't happen, because it just did.
BUT, The following is all I need from you, Spark;
I need to know that the rules are set forth clearly and I need to know that are are be applied fairly and consistently and are not subject to arbitrary change.
After I know this, I will be able to make a well informed decision.
fishface5
Gold Member
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- Feb 3, 2001
- Messages
- 9,136
"Now, why would a guy making handle scale material pay more than a guy making knives? Resellers I can completely understand, there is the gray area of guys who still handcraft something, but that something doesn't cut stuff. A little lost on why some of you think they should be paying $200 a year."
EXACTLY. The site charges knifemakers a nominal fee to encourage their craftsmanship, for the benefit of all the knife-lovers on the site. I don't see how craftpersons who produce materials helpful in creating cool knives are more like dealers than they are like knifemakers. Both are trying to make a profit, but it's from their craft not from simple buying and selling of pre-made goods. Resale is a business transaction, and advertising costs are part of the business. Craftwork has much lower volume and lower margins (unless you sell big-ticket items, like some knifemakers, who still only pay $40 not $200).
Once a craft becomes a full-on business, with high production levels, perhaps it would make sense to charge more. But in order to encourage the little guys to keep producing and sharing cool widgets, it makes sense to keep the fees lower and thereby benefit all the folks on the board. If they go from little to large-scale, then perhaps their fees should increase to match their sales level and revenues. But I don't know that lanyards or wood scales are going to be such a booming business that the producers are going to be hiring accountants.
EXACTLY. The site charges knifemakers a nominal fee to encourage their craftsmanship, for the benefit of all the knife-lovers on the site. I don't see how craftpersons who produce materials helpful in creating cool knives are more like dealers than they are like knifemakers. Both are trying to make a profit, but it's from their craft not from simple buying and selling of pre-made goods. Resale is a business transaction, and advertising costs are part of the business. Craftwork has much lower volume and lower margins (unless you sell big-ticket items, like some knifemakers, who still only pay $40 not $200).
Once a craft becomes a full-on business, with high production levels, perhaps it would make sense to charge more. But in order to encourage the little guys to keep producing and sharing cool widgets, it makes sense to keep the fees lower and thereby benefit all the folks on the board. If they go from little to large-scale, then perhaps their fees should increase to match their sales level and revenues. But I don't know that lanyards or wood scales are going to be such a booming business that the producers are going to be hiring accountants.
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- Oct 2, 1998
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- 15,054
I'm going to encourage you to remain civil and level headed during these discussions. I'll be making a longer post in a minute, but I'll remind you that I'm not making unilateral decisions and disallowing any discussions, nor am I belittling anyone or calling any names. I'll ask that you show me the same courtesy that I'm showing you.