Microtech's ship w/religious info??

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I've been watching this develop for a while and have kept out of it because I don't want to come off on the wrong foot.

I have never been to church on a Sunday, never read the bible completely (only small sections if someone tosses out a reference to scripture) but I still consider myself to be a Christian. I don't need the bible or church to show me the beauty of God, nor do I need a little insert with my knives. Yes, it is good to see a company with some good religious backing.

The problem is that there are so many religions out there with a common God, many faiths believe in a single God. Most faiths have very similar rules/commandments and a very similar time line for the past. Where they differ is with prophets and Jesus. I know that the Witnesses believe in Jesus, they just belive he was burned at the stake, not put on a cross. If MT put as saying about God instead of Jesus maybe less people would be offended. Or maybe people aren't offended by the material iteself, but of the idea that someone is attempting to get them to read religious material. I can see how other religions might be a little upset that they're new MT came with such information, or maybe they don't like the way religion is portrayed in the cartoons.

I can see both sides of the argument on this one. Christians see no problem with the tracts because they enjoy them and believe that the don't hurt anyone else. Non-christian are offended because it's not a religion that they practice and may even go against their beliefs. I personally am not going to get my undies in a bunch over this and if I received a knife with a tract in it, my main concern is the knife, everything else will probably be tossed in a drawer somewhere.
 
Yells into living room: "Honey, I can't go to church with you tomorrow - but I DID order another MicroTech, OK?"

I'm not a religious person, but I do hold very strong beliefs about how I want to live my life during my brief time here on earth. I haven't seen the "bonus" literature from Microtech, but if a company that makes such a superb product wants to include this with their shipping materials, it doesn't bother me (I also subscribe to the "the knob also turns left" theory). Buck Knives have added their religious sentiments to their warranty for years. Not only doesn't it offend me - I kind of like it. It adds a "human" touch.

What DOES offend me is hypocrisy - for example, Rosie publicly spouting her anti-gun rhetoric to the world, and secretly allowing her bodyguard to apply for a concealed firearm permit to protect HER children.

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Holger :c{{{<
AKTI Member No: A001324
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www.cockroachfarm.com
 
For what it's worth, I'm enjoying this thread! Eric, did you have any idea it would turn into this novella?

I only wish I had the money to buy Microtechs and get FREE Chic literature with them! Alas, I could only afford a pink Delica as my latest knife. But it did have the Spyderco catalog!
smile.gif


Hey, why doesn't MT work out a deal with Chic to write some inspiring Second Amendment tracts?

And what's with Ms. Salad Girl? I didn't see her original post, nor any of her previous ones. Can someone explain to a confused reader? I get the idea she may be an "anti self-defense person." If so, I have some feminist readings for her. Gotta treat these folks nice and not get so riled up. Kinda like Chic tracts!
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Hey Salad Girl, what's up?

Karl

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"Celebrate the diversity of inclusive, self-esteem nurturing, multicultural weapons arts." Karl Spaulding, The Safety Guy
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cockroachfarm:
What DOES offend me is hypocrisy - for example, Rosie publicly spouting her anti-gun rhetoric to the world, and secretly allowing her bodyguard to apply for a concealed firearm permit to protect HER children.</font>
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Which I might add her Bodyguard would have not been able to do legally, I think, in Connecticut. Gun Free Schools...it's a crime unless you're a Police Officer or some other Law Enforcement Official as far as I know.
 
I get a piece of mail every year that I hate. It states that even though I am really not receiving a proportional benefit, the IRS still would like a large chunk of my paycheck.

I would like to put a piece of return mail in there that sez, "Hey, you already get X amount from every gallon of gas I buy, my property is taxed X dollars, I pay X% on top of every purchase I make, and I have to pay X amount of dollars extra on a Honda cuz of your tarriff......" This note could go on forever, but I do not have the freedom to toss this thing into the trash. I can't even hope that maybe they'll throw a D/A LCC from Microtech into the envelope because this same organization denies me the right to have it.

And you are mad at the choice of packing material?
rolleyes.gif
 
It appears to me that those folks who like these Christian pamphlets coming with knives are Christian themselves. It occurs to me to ask if the welcome would be so warm if the pamphlets were from, say, Heaven's Gate, proclaiming that all these earthly religions are wrong, or from the Church of Satan, prostelytizing that Satan should be worshipped, or from Islam. If you think it's okay for religious pamphlets to ship with various unrelated merchandise, but only if it's your particular religion of choice, what does that say? On the contrary, if you think it's okay for any random religious pamphlets to ship with random merchandise, then you're borderline insane.

Ultimately, it is extremely unprofessional, in my mind, to start putting religious tracts in merchandise that has little to do with religion. My feelings about this have nothing to do with Christianity -- I'm not a hypocrite, so my feelings would be the same regardless of the particular religion involved. I feel there's no place for it.

Granted, there are about 1000 other things I'm much more worried about
smile.gif
In my weaker hours, though, I do daydream about intercepting some random merchandise headed towards some of the contributors of this string, and slipping in pamphlets promoting the Hindu pantheon, or the church of satan, and seeing if it's still deemed as appropriate.

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 04-29-2001).]
 
Spot on, Joe.
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Buck Collectors Club Member # 572
Dedicated ELU
Knifeknut(just ask my wife)
Sebenzanista
 
Eric,
"Cracks me up" was not refering to either of our mental conditions. It was referring to the fact that I was laughibg at you and your post. No more, no less.

You say,to quote; '"Crack kills"'.I agree. My question to you is: Do you know this by personal experience or are you '"simply believing something that you were told"'?

I personally consider your comment about scripture and poision Kool-aid poor. I think it is about like trying to relate knives, guns,cars,or anything else to killing or murder. Anything can be misused including scripture.
It seems to me only those people who do not think for themselves cannot see this. So if you consider this meaningful input, great. I just considered it common knowledge.

AS far as 'failing the course', I didn't know you you taking one much less a test???????? You'll have to answer that one on your own.

I agree that sarcasm can be a sport...along w/ a long list of other things?????????????

Whether I choose to play or spectate is up to me. Zero percent of that choice will be based on anything you have to say or suggest.

I should not have asked the sarcastic question about you feeling OK, cause I really could care less. I'm sure your hurt.

If you really want an answer about the tracts
why don't you contact MT knives and ASK?? Or are you just trying to stir things up w/ no fact to back up what you are saying???? Other than that the tracts were in the box.

Your assumptions and conclusions are meaningless.All you have done is ask a bunch of people who don't know the answer(myself included) what their opinion is. And just like rear ends everybody has one. So what???

If you really want to know, ask MT. Then you and anybody else can base their decision to buy or not to buy on the real answer, if it bothers them.

Your sarcasm is not confusing, no need to apologize. Nor is your endless rhetoric or semantical word games. It makes it easy for you to avoid true issues and questions.

The only real question I asked you was why you would even think about taking a tax deduction for something that seems to go against your '"convictions"' in such a major way. It seems you avoided an answer......

Believe what you believe, that is up to you. But just as you do not want beliefs imposed upon you don't try to impose yours upon me.

I personally could care less to know about who you want to deal w/ professionally. I fail to see how it relates to tracts and MT Knives in a way that would be of any interest to anyone but yourself.

Conviction seems to only '"imply static"' in your own mind. Look it up in Webster.

'To me' you convey the image of being double minded. One whose '"convictions"',beliefs, and ethics are situational.

Convictions must be based upon principles.

Principles are not situational.

This is my opinion, take it or leave it; same as the tracts.


Do I teach Bible school? No. But I consider it a compliment that you asked.
And I can see by your correction of my sentence structure that you figured out all on your own that I "'ain't' a language or english teacher either". In fact I don't even remember saying I was a teacher.

I looked at your 'profile', you had nothing listed. I think my profile says teacher, same as my screen name. Maybe you assumed I was a teacher, it really doesn't matter. To say the very least though, assumptions can be very misleading......So now you know just a bit more than you did before.
rolleyes.gif


Some of the above is sarcastic, some is not. I feel very confident that you will not have any trouble deciding which is which. But just in case I'll give you only a couple of hints in the key below....
rolleyes.gif


********* ********** ********** ******

Simple Sarcasism ID Key
rolleyes.gif


Sarcastic =
rolleyes.gif


********* **************** ***********
?? teacher?????<>maybe
rolleyes.gif
, maybe not

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teacher
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After 2000+ years the real question is still the same. What are you going to do about Jesus?
 
I'm not sure if this point was covered, but here goes.

Putting ANYTHING into Microtech boxes and then selling them to customers reflects on MICROTECH. It is natural for people to assume that whatever comes inside their product box, it came from the manufacturer. This issue should be brought to Microtech so they can deal with it. If they don't care, I guess the best adive then is to throw out the comics if you don't like them, or keep them if you do. If Microtech doesn't appreciate anything else being added to their boxes, nothing should be.
If I were a manufacturer of any product, I'd be a little cheesed off if someone added things to my product boxes.

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"Come What May..."
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joe Talmadge:
It appears to me that those folks who like these Christian pamphlets coming with knives are Christian themselves. It occurs to me to ask if the welcome would be so warm if the pamphlets were from, say, Heaven's Gate, proclaiming that all these earthly religions are wrong, or from the Church of Satan, prostelytizing that Satan should be worshipped, or from Islam. If you think it's okay for religious pamphlets to ship with various unrelated merchandise, but only if it's your particular religion of choice, what does that say? On the contrary, if you think it's okay for any random religious pamphlets to ship with random merchandise, then you're borderline insane.[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 04-29-2001).]</font>
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Count me borderline insane!
Joe,
You can send me anything you like that can match credentials with the Bible or Christ. I'd love to read about another indiviual whose existance, miracles, death, and ressurection are documented through secular historians of his own time. Especially if they did not "believe" in him. Let's see, we teach the Ilead in school but have less than 40 copied examples of the piece . . . but in what was indisputably founded to be a Godly nation we can't teach the Bible even though it is the most thoroughly documented book in the history of the world . . . over 26,000 early examples of the text. Yeah, I'd love to get a copy of it's equal!
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Just my .02

I think I'll buy another Microtech too! I am glad to support Christian businesses that are willing to put possible loss of sales at risk in order to share some good news!

P.S. It's not about a "religion" . . . it's about a relationship.


[This message has been edited by Jason Burns (edited 04-29-2001).]
 
Joe Tallmadge,
You make some good points and observations.
They could be applied to any group, not just Christians.

This is America. I think a company should be able to put any literature in their product they wish to. But it should be a company decision, not a decision made by a 'rogue' employee; no matter what the literature.

I also think that since this IS America,I; as a responsible consumer have the right and responsibility to support them or not support them.

If the company chooses to inform me of their beliefs and I do not agree w/ them, I will not use or buy their product; no matter how good it is. Simple as that.

Sooner or later, right or wrong it's all "gonna come out in the wash anyway".

There is one fence w/ two sides and it can't be straddled. I've read the 'end of the BOOK' and I believe it. This is my choice, if it is not someone else choice; thats OK.It is up to them.

Some of the ones I agree w/ here are m, Jason Burns, and Lifter to name a few. If that suddenly makes me "insane", then so be it. It sure beats anything else I've found.

Sincerely,

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teacher
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As an educator, I can verify that the Bible can be taught in school. It is taught as a historical document, the same way the Koran or the works of Buddha are taught. In teaching world history at the college level, I teach about the historical circumstances surrounding the development of the modern monotheistic tradition which also includes Judaism and Islam. I do not teach theology or Bible school, that is function of churches and other faith based institutions.

BTW, there are independent citations of Jesus, for instance the Jewish historican Josephus. Also, historians have found inscriptions with the name of Pontius Pilate. It should be noted, however, that in crediting miracles to Jesus or the Apostles, the ancient writers are not concending special powers to these figures. Reports of miracles and people being sons of gods were actually pretty common in the ancient world. That is probably why many contemporaries of Jesus did not find his claims especially moving.

For what it is worth, I am a Baptist who just got out of Sunday service about an hour ago. I just want folks to understand that we do live in a society with many different beliefs and many people who are not religious at all. Those who are eager to have their religious beliefs handed to other people should be equally willing to be polite and respectful when confronted with the beliefs of others even when found unexpectedly, like in a knife box.
 
Actually, you seem to have made a good point, albeit unintentionally. If Microtech sent me Satanic propoganda in it's boxes, I would choose one of two actions: I would either decide that it doesn't bother me enough to affect my purchasing decisions, or I would decide that I choose not to put up with it and no longer support MT by buying their products. That's the beauty of a free market. There's no need for rabble-rousing. Simply make your decisions by your principles, and your point will be made. If MT pisses off lots of people, and they stop buying MT and tell their friends not to buy MT, then pretty soon MT is going to be in deep financial ****, and thus THEY would have to decide if it's worth it to continue with the tracts. As Milton Friedman says, people who discriminate on the basis of color, race, creed, religion, or whatever ultimately only end up hurting themselves economically by reducing their marketplace to those members they consider "appropriate". On the other hand, if you choose to ignore those things, and judge solely on the basis of ability, or quality, or whatever, then you've put yourself in a much better position.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Joe Talmadge:
It appears to me that those folks who like these Christian pamphlets coming with knives are Christian themselves. It occurs to me to ask if the welcome would be so warm if the pamphlets were from, say, Heaven's Gate, proclaiming that all these earthly religions are wrong, or from the Church of Satan, prostelytizing that Satan should be worshipped, or from Islam. If you think it's okay for religious pamphlets to ship with various unrelated merchandise, but only if it's your particular religion of choice, what does that say? On the contrary, if you think it's okay for any random religious pamphlets to ship with random merchandise, then you're borderline insane.

Ultimately, it is extremely unprofessional, in my mind, to start putting religious tracts in merchandise that has little to do with religion. My feelings about this have nothing to do with Christianity -- I'm not a hypocrite, so my feelings would be the same regardless of the particular religion involved. I feel there's no place for it.

Granted, there are about 1000 other things I'm much more worried about
smile.gif
In my weaker hours, though, I do daydream about intercepting some random merchandise headed towards some of the contributors of this string, and slipping in pamphlets promoting the Hindu pantheon, or the church of satan, and seeing if it's still deemed as appropriate.

[This message has been edited by Joe Talmadge (edited 04-29-2001).]</font>
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I certainly don't mean to pick on you, or start a new debate, but for your sake and because I worry for your soul, I must exhort you to rethink some things. The Bible in no uncertain terms describes what a Christian is and is not, and that is the standard that we must strive for. Fortunately, our ultimate fate rests in Jesus' hands, not our own, but that does not mean we can do as we please.
Furthermore, the Bible makes very clear that there are NO other ways into heaven and into God's favor than through Jesus Christ. Other religions may "seem" similar, but the God of the Bible has told us that unless it follows Scripture exactly, it is not Christianity - it is something else. That's not to say that there's only one correct denomination - all are wrong on at least a few issues, and the faith in Christ's redemptive power is all that's need for salvation. But any religion without Christ is folly, and is certainly not worshipping the same God of the Bible.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by BaliLover:
I've been watching this develop for a while and have kept out of it because I don't want to come off on the wrong foot.

I have never been to church on a Sunday, never read the bible completely (only small sections if someone tosses out a reference to scripture) but I still consider myself to be a Christian. I don't need the bible or church to show me the beauty of God, nor do I need a little insert with my knives. Yes, it is good to see a company with some good religious backing.

The problem is that there are so many religions out there with a common God, many faiths believe in a single God. Most faiths have very similar rules/commandments and a very similar time line for the past. Where they differ is with prophets and Jesus. I know that the Witnesses believe in Jesus, they just belive he was burned at the stake, not put on a cross. If MT put as saying about God instead of Jesus maybe less people would be offended. Or maybe people aren't offended by the material iteself, but of the idea that someone is attempting to get them to read religious material. I can see how other religions might be a little upset that they're new MT came with such information, or maybe they don't like the way religion is portrayed in the cartoons.

I can see both sides of the argument on this one. Christians see no problem with the tracts because they enjoy them and believe that the don't hurt anyone else. Non-christian are offended because it's not a religion that they practice and may even go against their beliefs. I personally am not going to get my undies in a bunch over this and if I received a knife with a tract in it, my main concern is the knife, everything else will probably be tossed in a drawer somewhere.</font>
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About the 26 000 copies of the bible point:

Scholars have shown that the bible is historically accurate with respect to how well it has been copied over the years. Comparisons of new versions and old texts, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, show us that what has come down to people today matches something like 90+ percent. But that does not mean that every detail in the bible actually happenned. It just means that over 2000 years people have done a great job preserving the original ords that were written.

There are many more texts, gospels and such that DIDN'T make it into the bible, another point worth noting. But I shall say no more, as this thread is starting to stray.

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"Come What May..."
 
For what it's worth, I can make 100 million CD-Rom's with the Unabombers manifesto on it, each being exactly like the original. That doesn't make the source any more correct, logical, rational, or even comprehensible.

Threads like these are the reason we don't like having any religious topics on the forums - far to many people get riled up over machts nichts issues.

The Facts Are:
1. Microtech is / was packaging religious material with their knives.
2. It's up to the end user to decide if they are or are not offended by this; they can vote with their wallets.

I'm locking this thread now since it's drifted from knives to religion... please don't start it up again.

Kevin

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by teacher:
Joe Tallmadge,
You make some good points and observations.'
</font>
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Thank you sir. Just to keep my grounded, let's see that again:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Joe Tallmadge,
You make some good points and observations.'
</font>
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And thank you again! <bow>

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
They could be applied to any group, not just Christians.

This is America. I think a company should be able to put any literature in their product they wish to. But it should be a company decision, not a decision made by a 'rogue' employee; no matter what the literature.

I also think that since this IS America,I; as a responsible consumer have the right and responsibility to support them or not support them.

If the company chooses to inform me of their beliefs and I do not agree w/ them, I will not use or buy their product; no matter how good it is. Simple as that.</font>
Click to expand...

Yes indeedy. I agree completely. This is a free country, after all. I hope I didn't imply that I felt this type of action should be illegal; nor do I feel that I implied that it is immoral. I did state outright that I feel it's unprofessional.

My response was prompted by a reading of this string in which I interpreted certain posters as justifying the inclusion of this Christian text because it was Christian. This position didn't seem to waver even after a rumor that a rogue employee was responsible for the tracts. I am curious to see if that's so, and am still curious, since no one answered my question directly. I'll ask something different ...

If you got a random product with a pamphlet for a non-Christian religion included, would you feel that was unprofessional of the company? If you later found out it was the action of a rogue employee of a distributor, do you think the employee should be disciplined? Are your answers for these questions different if the pamphlet was Christian or non-Christian? What if it was a pamphlet for the church of satan, or a Jewish group, or a Muslim group, or Heaven's Gate, or an Identity Christianity group (that is, a religion that uses the exact same bible as you, with a different interpretation)?

Joe


 
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