Model 10 from R. W. Clark in Liquid Metal (LM1)

[Cliff Stamp]

ColoradoDave :

Would be particularly interested in hearing what you're seeing under magnification as the edge degrades with use ...

With use, edge damage will set in at the 100 to 10 micron level depending on the nature of the cutting, carpet is about 100 microns, hemp rope about 10 micron. Examining the edge of this knife and various steels the behavior isn't significantly different in type, the magnitude varies with steel properties, some chip, wear or roll more than others. I should really get a decent photo magnifier so I could illustate this with some pictures.

I'm guessing with this material, the edge may not roll ...

So would I except I have seen it with ceramic blades. While the ductility is low for LM1 if you get it thin enough, it will take a set. After doing 62 cuts into hemp rope for example, the edge was down to about 20% of optimal slicing aggression, after steeling it was within a few percent of freshly honed. Looking right down into the edge, the deflections can be seen, and are a fraction of a mm, on the order of 100 microns.

rdangerer :

Want to unveil your former alter-BF-ego for us anytime soon?

He joined right after Chad234 / Eric_Draven was banned for the second time. His first posts with the hillbilly persona are nearly identical to the way that Draven intruduced himself. His recent posts in the above on angles are near identical in structure and wording comments Chad and later Draven has made. His last post in this thread has a near insane level of irony considering his previous posts. That is the downside to anon internet postings, and why in most forms with a long history they are all ignored. It is also why a lot of the discussion forums require real name registeration as it massively cuts down on trolls.

R. W. Clark :

Treat is as you would any other material considering the taper and the thickness at the point.

That was essentially what I was looking for. The tip taper is fairly thin, I have not seen a steel knife with that profile which could do heavy wood digging (1/2"+ thickness), with that geometry. However with them you are farely safe on examining it because they will all bend (will most will anyway).

At perfect 90s it does not push cut worth a damn, but with a slight change in the blade it will slice till the cows come home.

Is this with the rougher finish you noted in the above? No steel blade will push cut then either, as the edge is just a saw. What you are describing isn't an inherent propertly of LM1 just general cutting mechanices. For example look at cutting with a skew chisel vs an ordinary one. The skew chisel, at the same level of sharpness, can given cleaner cuts. Lee talks about this in detail in his book on sharpening.

As you are cutting in a way which is very much a slice, the blade will continue to cut long past the point in which is would have stopped push cutting. This allows more material to be cut, with any blade material even mild steels. One of the reasons I stopped doing cardboard comparisons in this manner was that it required far too much cardboard as even really cheap knives (SAK's and such) would cut for vast periods of time.

As to edge wear. LM1, as with any other amorphic metal, has what is called "edge band shearing" (there is a more scientific name but I can never remember it). Basically this is what you see when a sheet of plate glass breaks. The edges tend to break at sharp angles and the tend to be very sharp. This is happening with LM1 and it is the way that it wears (on a microscopic level of coarse). As the molicules on the very edge fail and break away from the rest of the material the seperate at 45 degree angles and tend to leave "dished" voids. This can also be looked at as really tiny flint knapping. So what is happening is that the edge is being replaced with a fresh edge at the point of failure.

What needs to be considered here is the size of this effect. As the metal wears you can see deformations and chips which are just sub-mm in size (~100 microns). These will produce distortions of the edge which will vastly mask effects on a sub molecular level. Consider various steels, all which has greatly different grain structure and levels of carbide segregation, these can vary by more than ten to one. However if you sharpen them at some fairly coarse grit level, say 100 AO, they all slice the same. Why, because the structures formed by the abrasive are so large they completely mask the underlying structure which is only micron in size (and even that this is still far larger than molecular).

I have finished four rounds of carpet cutting, three on hemp (three different rolls), one left to do, when that is done I'll repeat it on a more coarse abrasive, 80 or 100 AO and see if it behaves significantly difference from steel when also used at that level. This isn't looked forward to however because it makes a massive change in slicing aggression in general which greatly induces edge holding and thus requires *lots* more material to be cut.

-Cliff

 

[digger1]

Mr. Clark,

Re: Shearing effect

A forumite named Singularity made some very interesting observations last year about the shearing effect when chopping. Since chopping is really just a glorified pushcut, I think the same principles would apply.

Here is the thread However, the images are not showing.

He also has a very nice web site with detailed reviews (proper reviews) of different edged tools. Perhaps there is more information there.

Singularity's site

I find it interesting that 220 grit is the optimim edge finish for this materail, as this would be very course for a knife steel (As you well know.)

I think this material has certain appliactions which it would excel at, and will only improve in time, as more research and development is done.

I think you have done a great service to the knife world, by bringing thius material to us, it may well be the future of knives.

You sir, are on the cutting edge.

 

[Mike_Chandler]

Cliff:

It is also why a lot of the discussion forums require real name registeration as it massively cuts down on trolls.

I am with you all the way on that. Use of real names adds accountability and personal responsibility to forum members. Some people have privacy concerns, and that is understandable. A good balance used by some forums is that people can use screen names, but they must list their real name in their profile. Profiles can only be seen by other members, who have in turn listed their real names. A database is also kept by the site admins and mods, so that when engaged in a trade or deal with another forumite, you can confirm their real name and address before shipping.

Reputation is conduct based. Having to stick with the name your parents gave you, means that your repuatation follows. People will conduct themselves accordingly.

 

[Gator97]

Originally posted by V Shrake

Gator97. So your job as a computer geek doesn't leave you any time to actually USE your knives. How surprising.
What is really surprising that apparently you didn't understand what I wrote. Quoting myself rom that msg:
"Due to sheer number of knives I can't physically use all of them intensively, especially that my job is comp related"
I said intensively, doesn't mean I do not use them.

Why is that guys like you are constantly bragging up their latest, greatest "investment" and yet never take the time to actually use the knife as intended?
I don't see my knives as "investment". It's my hobby and it's ok with me to pay the price for it without expecting the return. As of the use I stated above, I use them as needed, and I have a choice which makes it more interesting.

So I don't usually have many chances to take a picture of my knife before the coating is worn, or the blade is scratched, unless I take a pic of it right out of the box.
Doh. That was an interesting statement. You must be very busy cutting all sorts of things if you can't find 5 mins to take a picture. Apparently you can't afford to spend any time and have to get to cutting right away, as soon as your new knife arrives.
Anyway, I do take my time to take pix, I like that too, before I start using my new knife.

And anyone that thinks his methods are anything other than an attempt to get attention is missing the point.
Oh really? May be you could post a review or two so we can see what's the real thing?

all they have to do is buy themselves a web site.
To make it easier for you, you don't have to buy a website, there are tonns of places that will provide you with free webspace and beginner tools for building it. Looking forward for reviews from you on your website then?

 

[VampyreWolf]

just going to toss my 2 cents in here...

I've been reading cliff's reviews for a while, give an interesting view point on some aspects. I got into my habit of thinning edges from both joe t and cliff. Current beater is a stainless dragonfly(spyderco) with a basic ats-55 plain edge, thinned to about 12deg inclusive with a 20deg or so double grind at the edge. Ran a 20deg inclusive for a month before thinning it to 12ish. week 3 took a 5min strop. This is 2 weeks in on this edge now, still shaves.

I put more trust into factory testing though than "reviewers". Spyderco does a lot of the production, including a corrosion fog(q-fog testing), edge retention via a CATRA machine(controlled abrasive and pressure), as well as breaking knives on the lock testing, just to see how much they take. Granted, thats dead on vertical testing, not "real world"...

Liquid Metal is fairly new, and I suspect will take a few years to catch on and get bugs worked out. Don't know of any steels that picked up and were big in the first year.

Digger: one word, troll.

I've been aquiring knives for 14yrs, since my 5th bday. In 14yrs, I've broken 1 knife. I've bought, sold, and given over 50 knives. Right now I have about 30, most around the 100usd mark. Carry a 180usd fixed in rotation with a 120usd fixed on my left hip. I even rotate 2 slipjoints, worth about 5usd each... and my dad's old one, 30yrs+ old. Used pretty much every stainless steel, couple variations of high carbon(1095, 5160, and something else I can't remember the name of). Sharpening freehand since that first knife. I take care of my knives, and everything from my first one to my 2yr beater are in great shape.

 

[V Shrake]

Actually, Gator97, I *have* done quite a few reviews, on not just knives but other things as well. You can see them at:

http://oldjimbo.com/survival/

So I do know what I'm talking about. As for the picture taking thing, I don't have my own camera, and often by the time I can borrow one I've already used the knife, as intended. Also, I very rarely, if ever, use a knife fresh out of the box with the factory edge. Instead I almost always sharpen them to my preferred edge *before* use. And I do tend to use my knives "extensively", as in real world uses.

And no worries about me "wasting my time" here any further. It's obvioulsy futile on my part, and not worth my time and efort to lower myself to your level. I usually try to avoid such pointless debate, as nothing is ever accomplished by it. You will believe what you will, and I honestly don't care.

Big pistol pointing in face dude: I raised goats for eating; the fact that you missed this obvious intent points up that fact that it's YOU, not I, that would have an "ulterior motive" for rasing livestock.

As for calling Digger 1 a "troll"; well, that is interesting. Granted, he obvioulsy adopted a persoan different from his real one, and it's equally obvious that it was done for comedic effect. Callin ghim a troll for such behavior is a bit odd, to say the least. Or perhaps he earned the sobriquet of troll due to his uncanny knack for telling the truth, despite how it flies n the face of your preconcieved notions? If you're calling him a troll because he defended himself using the same techniques you yourselves employ, how does that make you any different or better than him? After all, it was you that started with the name-calling and personal bashing. He merely replied in kind, and with much better wit and closer to the mark as well. So it would seem that he (and I, perhaps) are not the ONLY trolls lurking under bridges in these parts, hey?

But never fear, the ugly light of reason shall no longer sully your dank little world. I'm not going to waste any more time or effort here.

 

[Roadrunner]

Bye bye.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

More work with the Model 10.

Edge Retention with coarse finish (x-coarse DMT) :

The edge produced (22 degree micro-bevel) was many times more coarse than the fine DMT finish, the edge showed teeth up to ~75 microns deep. Again using a two inch slice on 3/8" Manila hemp, the edge retention was roughly double what it was with a fine DMT finish. However it still did not outperform a SAK which was used as a benchmark with the same finish. More numbers will be given with the review.

[knives were then sharpened to a fine shaving polish, CrO]

Paint Can (one quart can) :

Pressed the point of the Model 10 into the can and sliced a section off. The cutting was difficult, very hard to get through the seam. The edge was reflecting light in the entire contact region and fracture was evident [why the cutting was difficult]. Under magnification the entire edge was basically broken away showing chips about 0.1-0.2 mm in depth and 1-2 mm in length. This was repeated with the Howling Rat, no damage was visible by eye, near the tip some light was reflecting from the edge, under magnification the damage was ~25% that of seen on the Model 10.

[with edges left from paint can]

Bone chopping (frozen turkey and ham bones - cooked) :

The turkey leg bones were 1.2 cm wide with ~2mm thick walls. The Ham bones were 2 cm wide with 4-5 mm thick walls. The chops were very forceful, the turkey bones were severed with 1-2 hits, and large pieces were broken out of the ham bone with every impact. The chops were cut into the bones on a 45 degree angle to minimise stress on the knife.

The Model 10 took visible damage with every impact on the Turkey bone, chips clearly visible by eye. The largest was 0.018" thick at the back and 0.070" wide. On the ham bones the dents were smaller, about half as large, due to the decreased pressure from the wider contact area. No trouble in getting enough penetration to chop through either bone.

The Howling Rat was not visibly effected on either bone chopping. On a lark it was used in a fairly abusive manner. To clarify this Howling Rat had been *extensively* modified from the NIB profile. The primary grind had been thinner, the the knife was ~0.005" thick behind the edge.

The edge was placed straight down into the ham bone and a 3 foot length of 2x4 was used to forcefully hammer the knife into the bone. This proved to be fairly difficult, and a sloppy hit twisted the knife in the bone and chipped the edge. The fracture was 0.012" at the back of the bevel (deep due to the modified very thin profile - 0.048").

[knives were fully sharpened to high polishes, CrO, push shaving]

It took 12-13 minutes on a coarse hone (hockey puck) to remove the visible damage from the Model 10.

Wood chopping :

The Model 10 and Howling Rat were used on some scrap lumber, soft clear pine and harder spruce. The knives were held in a two fingered grip around the end of the handle. The Howling Rat had about 35 +/- 7 % and the Model 10 36 +/- 2 % the penetration of the Camp Tramp. This translates to 19 +/- 4 and 20 +/- 2 % of the penetration of the Wildlife Hatchet from Gransfors Bruks.

Tip penetration :

The Model 10 sank into a phone book well on a vertical stab, on average 687 +/- 56 pages of penetration. The Howling Rat achieved 627 +/- 8. The Howling Rat is also heavier than the Model 10 (185 vs 160 g) which inherently makes for a more powerful stab, and the handle is more ergonomic. However the much slimmer tip of the Model 10 is enough to counter act both of those effects and gives better penetration.


Tip durability :

The knife was inserted 1/8" deep into clear pine, on a sideways pry it popped free of the wood. On 1/4" deep the knife went to 60-70 degrees with no clearing of the wood. The flex was aborted as the wood was snowing no signs of strain and more utility work needed to be done with the tip.

Details on high polish sharpening :

The Model 10 and Swiss Army knife Rucksack were both honed with a 1000 grit waterstone. Under magnification [x20] the edges showed the same micro-tooth pattern. The edges were then refined on a 4000 grit waterstone. Both edges look identical again, the teeth were not just on the level of visible under magnification. The edges were refined with CrO [a 8000 grit waterstone or similar abrasive would be a good in between step here]. The teeth got significantly smaller quickly on both blades. After a few passes on CrO loaded leather and then on plain leather, both blades could shave arm hair when held at a 45 degree angle above the skin.

Miscellaneous use :

The Model 10 was used to pry the meat off the inside of a coconut. The very thin point was able to readily get between the meat and the shell. The Camp Tramp could not do this at all and just tore up the meat, as did the Howling Rat. However the Camp Tramp was able to open the Coconut readily, just whacked it a few times. A Blackjack small was used in an attempt to open it with the tip, it cracked off with little to no flex losing 1/8" of tip. The knife was 0.018" thick at the back of the break.

Handle security in extremes :

The Model 10 was used with liquid soap and water on the grip, it could still whittle wood fine, and chop readily, however regripping was frequently necessary and a lanyard hole would be of benefit. Stabbing and hard hammering with the pommell was not possible, hand would ramp over the grip too readily [it takes a very aggressive surface texture to do this like the Reeve one piece line]. When vegetable oil was used, whittling and chopping were still possible, however now regripping was necessary every 1-2 hits.

Hard stabs could be done if the thumb was used on the pommell for stabilisation, however with the blade facing outward (away from the body), the upper part of the pommell contacts the thumb and it is too squarish and is a high pressure point. If the blade is reversed then the thumb fits well over the sloped pommel, however the handle ergonomics as a whole are not that comfortable in such a grip as the index finger cutout faces towards the palm.

Handle ergonomics :

The end hook on the handle is too sharp for most use, and becomes abrasive quickly in partial finger grips for snap chopping. The Howling Rat is much more ergonomic in the same grip. On the heavy stabs, the index finger cutout in the handle proved to be troublesome. It was too thin and almost pointy.

[knives were fully sharpened to high polishes, CrO, push shaving]

Various wood working :

Carving - the Model 10 had slightly greater wood roughing ability than the Camp Tramp [6.8 +/- 0.3 vs 7.9 +/- 1.0 on the hardwood dowel pointing], and further using the Camp Tramp in such a choked up grip to maximize cutting poer is problematic due to the squarish nature of the front of the grip and reduced ergonomics of an index finger cutout opposed to a grip around a full handle. When the Camp Tramp is used in regular grip the wood roughing ability is reduced due to the leverage disadvantage.


Felling - Both knives knocked down a few small trees from 1.5 to 2.5" in diameter compared to a the saw on a Rucksack (SAK). The Model 10 had about 21 +/- 5 % of the ability of the saw and the Camp Tramp 40 +/- 6 % better than the saw. The performance ratio was much greater than the raw penetration ratios because the Model 10 could not achieve enough penetration to clear out the necessary full wedge and thus had to consistently multiple notch the cuts.

Limbing - The Model 10 was easily enough blade to limb out trees of that size, even the decently harder ones like spruce. The limbs were small, usually 1/2" and under and could be knocked off in a hit or two. The knife was usually swung in a partial grip, but was used in a full grip to sweep off the smaller branches.

Bark - On light barks (birch), the Model 10's more precise point and overall lighter blade was more efficient, similar for barks up to 1/2" thick. The blade could easily be inserted under the bark and leverage up large pitchy slabs, excellent for tinder. The Camp Tramp needed significantly more force to be inserted under the bark, and due to the cross section tended to fracture it often. On really thick barks, the Camp Tramp's more robust point was easily able to quickly tear off large chunks, whereas the Model 10 was much more inefficient due to the lack of stiffness of the tip (mainly a cross section issues however also inherent materials strength).

Digging prying - the Camp Tramp's robust tip was used to break apart rotted trees to get at the often ant riddled core. This wood is almost paper light, excellent tinder, even used as paper and for makeshift strainers. The knife was able to break open the main tree body with body weight prying to the side. It also broke/tore open stumps and trees readily to get pitch wood, also excellent tinder. The Model 10 didn't have the tip strength to match the Camp Tramp on those type of tasks and was vastly less efficient.

Baton work - the Model 10 was used with a baton for some chopping which greatly increased its functionality. The impacts were heavy enough to readily break off the batons (~2") thick. No visible damage to the knife. The very tip was avoided in the impacts, tried to focus the impacts at least 1/2" back.


Edge retention on wood chopping :

After fairly brief wood chopping sessions the Model 10 was examined under magnification [x10]. The edge would consistently chip out at an extent of 0.05 - 0.1 mm deep and ~1mm long. These would have a frequency of about one chip every 5 mm or so. The edge retention when whittling very hard woods was also not up to par with a much harder cutlery steel due to rolling (yes fairly vague - should quantify that).


-Cliff

 

[digger1]

Re: Changes in tone.

I was forced to change from a informal "home style" tone, used to bring levity to the situation, to a more formal one, using industry accepted nomenclature after I was subject to personal attacks from Mr. Rdangerer, such as "digger1 can't be for real... not with backwoods-hillbilly-BS quotes like this: and "Digger1, here's aiming at you: me smell troll. I think you are a troll." This statement, made in light of Mr. Rdanger's avatar which depicts him pointing a handgun, makes me feel threatened by his statement. His personal attacks on me are obviously prohibited by forum rules, yet he continues.

If there are any further attacks made on me, I will have no choice but to report your behavior to the moderators for appropriate actions.

I have placed several people on my ignore list, and the site seems much more mature because of it.


Re: Self appointed "Troll Hunters"

German philosopher, poet and critic Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche (1844-1900) wrote:
""He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster."

The behavior that these self appointed "troll hunters" engage is far more troll like than the behavior of those they unjustly pursue.

It is obvious that these "troll hunters" engage in this behavior for the sole purpose of garnering attention on themselves. They have no real interest ion learning or sharing information that concerns knife performance attributes, they only want conflict, drama and attention. They do not even care if the attention is good (praise) or bad (scorn). These troll hunters, are nothing but trolls themselves. THey should be ashamed of themselves.

Mr. V-Shrake:

Callin ghim a troll for such behavior is a bit odd, to say the least. Or perhaps he earned the sobriquet of troll due to his uncanny knack for telling the truth, despite how it flies n the face of your preconcieved notions? If you're calling him a troll because he defended himself using the same techniques you yourselves employ, how does that make you any different or better than him? After all, it was you that started with the name-calling and personal bashing.

I find your statements in this matter to be directly on point. Especially so, since they are in my favor.

Mr. Cliff Stamp,
Your recent work with the Model 10 is much better than your previous work with it. It is clear that you are using more "real world" focused testing, and it is appreciated. It should be noted that despite people's common misconception, the Swiss army knife is a high standard in a benchmark for cutting performance.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Chad234 : Eric_Draven : digger1 :

[talking about rob]

... I will have no choice but to report your behavior to the moderators for appropriate actions.

Yes, I would be interested to see how they respond to a poster who has been banned twice, and comes back almost immediately with a fabricated identity which was very similar to a past one and posts in a very inflammatory troll like manner.

Your recent work with the Model 10 is much better than your previous work with it. It is clear that you are using more "real world" focused testing...

Extended testing for scope of work over a broad range of applciations has always been apart of the reviews alongside the more controlled comparisons. It is done in stages of course, the stock work gets done first mainly because it can be done fast and is fairly consistent so it doesn't need to be repeated as much as less controlled work to get a decently robust performance estimate.

Back to the Model 10 :

What is mainly left to do with this knife is some cardboard cutting just to confirm the edge holding is similar here as to on hemp and carpet, repeat the wood chopping with a higher angle to check the influence on the chipping, and try on some more miscellanous materials (ruber tubing, fabrics) to see if anything out of the ordinary develops. Once that is done I'll talk to Gabe about any harder work he wants to see, tip work, leverage with the body, assisted splitting, etc. .

-Cliff

 

[Cliff Stamp]

For Jeff :

I took the Model 10 to a 4000 and then CrO finish, this wasn't completely optimal as there is too much of a gap. I then gave it a very light honing on a fine ceramic rod. The knife consisently scored under 100 g on the light thread cutting and could consisently catch arm hair at an angle above the skin and cut it. In the kitchen the knife could still readily cut over ripe tomatoes in spite of the very fine finish.

Now before this is used to promote LM1's ability to take a superior edge than steel, I used several other steel knives as benchmarks in the above sharpening and with other abrasives and they stayed with the LM1 readily. What I would propose is that while there very well may be a difference in ultimate sharpness, the amount of skill, particular abrasive used, and simply extreme standard that the user would need to have to even notice this difference would make it very rare.

This beings to light comments made in rec.knives awhile ago that coarse edges are often used to compensate for over thick edges and sloppy sharpening jobs. It is very true that you can be a lot sloppier with a coarse edge and still get high cutting ability (due to the larger tolerance of alignment for larger teeth) and that thicker edges simply don't push cut well.

Along these lines I have been leaving many of my optomized kitchen knives at higher polishes (4000 + CrO) and they still cut well even on tomatoes and such. It is something to consider. Joe has also demonstrated that as the knife gets more optomized cutting which is usually a slicing role can often be reverted back to push cuts (rope cutting).

-Cliff

 

[R.W.Clark]

Cliff, why are you compairing it to a steel knife? If you had bothered to read ANY of my writings or interviews I have clearly stated that in most testing it does not compair to high quality steel blades. But you just want to hear yourself gab.

Once again clear bias. Look how a Busse product outperformed another knife. Did it ever occur to you to compair it to a Stettile or Talonite knife? Of course not, Busse doesn't make any.

I am done with you Cliff. Have a nice life with your rabid following of Jerry Krishnas.

BTW: Looking forward to reviewing ANY knife you have ever made out of a material you discovered and helped develop for knife usage, for which you have gotten many technology awards and mentions in both Popular Mechanics and Popular Science. Oh, and I will be looking for your work ever to be the feature article in Blade Magazine.

But that will never happen.

Cliff you continue to be a bad joke with no punch line!:barf:

 

[Roadrunner]

I've been following this thread since the beginning; I just wanted to add a bystander's perspective to some of the views presented here. Ron, I think you're jumping the gun to dismiss Cliff's review before he's finished with it. As a blade material, Liquid Metal will compete with steel, plain and simple. I'm very interested in knowing how it compares to steel for work like this, it's a relevant comparison. You're right though, it's not the only comparison that should be made. I'd also be very interested in seeing how it stacks up to Talonite and Stellite. Maybe Cliff doesn't have any blades in those materials on hand, I don't know all of the circumstances regarding this test beyond what has been shown in this thread. It's a bit premature to dismiss it out of hand though.

On a slightly different tack, you seem to be taking all of these results very personally. I understand where you're coming from as this is your livelihood and your passion; knifemakers aren't in it for the money because this isn't an overly lucrative field. I respect you for that, but your attitude isn't helping to get any constructive work done in this case. I think it's doing more harm to your credibility than anything else; that's not intended to be a judgement, it's just my observation from a bystander's perspective. I've gotten some good information from Cliff's reviews, he does a good job of noting both the good and the bad. His writing style is very impersonal, and frankly can be tough to get through at times, but the information is valid. He just writes what happens. For that reason alone I doubt he'll ever be published in Blade, but then again I don't put much stock in the reviews I read in Blade either.

Basically, I'm just asking you to look at this a little more dispassionately. None of it is worth getting worked up over, it's just an internet forum. Please take this for what it's worth, which very well may not be much. Either way I wish you luck with your knives and other endeavours.

 

[R.W.Clark]

Roadrunner, this is personal for me but not because of the knife in question. It has to do with Cliff himself. Cliff is a giant blow hard and is quite frankly the laughing stock of the knife industry. Yes Cliff is known to almost everyone in the industry, but in Cliffs case that is not a good thing.

Cliff is nothing more than a punchline to our jokes. He is known far and wide for his biased reviews and worship of Jerry Busse.

I have had lots of meetings with leading knife companies over the past year and it never fails that Cliffs name comes up. When it does, eyes roll and everyone begins to laugh and snicker. It seems that everyone outside of BF knows what a giant goof this guy is. Here at BF he seems to have a following. That is one thing most of us will never figure out.

He has been thrown under the bus by makers and real testers more times than I can count. But, to his credit, he always comes right back and continues his biased "science" for his lapdogs to lap up. Did you know that he was once quoted as saying that he could destroy any maker that he did not like? Ya, thats impartial science.

The only thing that bugs me about all this is that some forumites take what he has to say to heart.

I for one at least posted photos of my testing. That is one thing that I have never seen Cliff do. Sure he will post the occasional photo before and/or after, but have any of you actually seem him performing any of these "tests". Why does Cliff not show photos of all his super lab equipment doing what they do? Why have we never seen photos of his tesing lab?

Cliffs moto is that if you can't provide unbiased proof, you have to baffle them with Bullshit.

As far as competing with steel in the open market, sure in some cases it will. But that is not the intent of the material. It should have been tested up against other non-magnetic alloys (Stellite, Talonite and Titanium). If he did not have any blades to compare it to, he should have waited. You do not compare a Lexus to a F350 in car reveiws do you?

Maybe in the overall big picture a comparison to steel knives would be of some vague value. But then why not test some other areas as well. How about sea spray testing, or acid exposure testing, or magnetic signature testing or any other number of aras that LM1 knives are designed to excell. No he puts it up against an overbuilt Busse product and tests it for chopping and prying. What a loser.

Will all of Cliffs testing have any real affect on me or my knives. Nope! not one bit. I might lose a few sales from Jerryphiles, but who cares. In the big picture people know the truth about Cliff and disregaurd his "research" as quickly as I do.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Sorry about the delay -- we had some technical difficulties, but that's all fixed and digger1 is banned now. No doubt he'll be back....

 

[Andrew Lynch]

Ron,

All these personal attacks are very sad. Want to criticise his methods? Fine. Want to add your commentary on his test of your knife? Great. However, calling him names is childish and in my mind only detracts from the credibility of your criticisms.

This has been an informative thread, and I hope it continues to be...let's not let it degenerate further.

 

[Roadrunner]

Ron, regardless of what you think of Cliff and his testing methods, your comments are getting out of line. Seeing you resort to name calling with a user of your knives whom you don't like doesn't give me a lot of confidence in your customer service. I like your knives, in fact I recently tried to buy one of your Mini-MAU models, but it was already sold. I'm just telling you from a customer's perspective now that your comments are making me a lot less likely to buy your knives. Andrew Lynch already said it best. I just don't like to see you digging yourself this kind of hole out of spite.

 

[R.W.Clark]

I call a spade a spade. Period. If that makes you not want to buy my knives, fine. I am not going to change who I am for a couple sales. I am in this business to make the best product that I am capable of, not to win any popularity contests. Being a maker does not mean that I should hold my tounge for fear of offending anyone. And if you guys think that I am bad, 10 minutes in a room with Loveless would kill you. When I see a lair, I call him a lair. When I see a thief, I call him a thief. When I see a joke, I call him a joke. Offensive language should be used when descibing offensive people or actions.

Cliffs "science" has been called to the mat time after time. Cliff just throws more techy sounding words out and the masses buy into it.

I would rather speak my peace and be poor, than to hold my tounge as a rich man. Evil will prosper when good men stand silent.

 

[FEATHERSTONE]

Well I just read this mess,I will say this when I buy a knife I ask the maker on what he designed the knife to do and how it will function at certain task and what are its limits.I will not go beyond its limits "just to see",because once you do that your useing the blade for what its NOT designed for .

As for V-shrake,well I know him from another forum and have alot of respect for him and his knowledge,and when V rights up review's I learn alot from him,one of the things Ive learned from V is he can take nothing and make something very usefull,which can save your bacon if your out in the sticks and things go to hell in a hand basket.

 

[Roadrunner]

OK. I'm not asking you to change who you are and what you believe; you should stand up for these things. Name calling is still childish and inappropriate. I'm not bothered by your opinion of Cliff. What bothers me is that you feel your opinion gives you the right to sling insults at him. That is one thing I've never seen him do. He disagrees with you, but doesn't call you an idiot because of it. Usually people only have to resort to name-calling when they don't have a leg to stand on. Hopefully this clarifies where I'm coming from a little better.