My Dispute with "The Bright Edge"

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anyone

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I had asked a question of etics in the bali forum concerning a $750 custom balisong that I returned to the seller because the latch didn't work. I had called ahead ( Long distance on my own dime) and asked specifically about the latch to ensure it was good because some of the maker's work has been suspect.

Because i was put into a position of put-up or shut-up on another forum, I went ahead and posted the pics without getting to talk to the current owner first (unfortunately).

Since the cat's out of the bag, here is the email exchange over this issue:
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Hello Robert,

I'm not sure if your mail account will accept photo attachments, so I will provide a link for each description of what is in the photo.

In the first two photos, you can clearly see daylight between the latch and the handle even though it is in the fully closed position.. The latch does not function as a latch in this condition. I always make sure that I call and speak to whoever is selling a balisong to be absolutely certain that the knife locks up tight in both the open and closed positions.

dtb.jpg


dtb5.jpg


This photo shows the reason that the knife does not lock up. The tang pins have excessively worn notches into the tang..

dtb1.jpg


Here's a closer shot of the worn area..

dtb2.jpg


This photo shows where the blind tang pin has a flat spot beaten into it.. This flat spot is from where the pin contacts the blade in the closed position. Incidentally, I found the knife to have perfect lockup in the closed position, so this wear is not as bad as the other side.

dtb3.jpg


This photo show the "hourglass" shaped spacers, but the one to the right is of a different "rounded" variety. This suggeststhat the knife may have required service at some point to replace a stripped spacer but an identicle match was not available.

dtb4.jpg


You have told me that you've only opened and closed this knife only 5 or 6 times and I have no reason to doubt your credibility, but it's absolutely obvious to me (and would be to any half-way serious collector) that this piece exhibits excessive wear. Since it's highly unlikely that the materials used to build the knife are inferior and that level of wear happened from only 5 or 6 openings & closings, I could only conclude that someone has access to your merchandise and is taking considerable advantage in honing their balisong flipping skills.. Wear like that takes some time to build up like that.

I might add that this knife is incredibly beautiful and has an absolutely perfect blade. I really hate having to return it but it has too obvious and serious of a defect. In order to repair the damage this knife has, larger diameter tang pings will have to be installed by the maker and the closing position be re-fit. I would also recommend that the spacers be exchanged for ones that all match and the pivot washers upgraded to phosphor-bronze. Properly repaired, this knife could be the center of someone's collection. I certainly would have kept this knife given these slight defects if it had locked up properly in the open position. The only other option that I see would be to sell it without the latch..

Regardless of how you choose to deal with this knife, I sincerely hope that you'll take extra care to fully advise any future customers of the condition of this knife.

Roger
 
Here's is Robert's reply to the above email ->
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Roger since you are an expert I don't think that trying to explain anything to you will help but, I will try.

First, I don't appreciate your statements about the care and handling of this knife. It has never been flipped, played with or ever handled by anyone but me, the maker and you, PERIOD!

I would challenge your skill and inspection of the knife in many ways. The blade tang is drilled all the way thru before the blade profile is finished so the amount of material needed to be removed is known. They are not wear notches! Every TB Brad has made has these same marks (from new condition) to some more or less degree.

The knife is Hand made, no CNC, no mills, it is cut by hand, fitted by hand ETC. The Knife has never been handled, repaired, had parts replaced etc.

I do not believe that bronze, or steel bushings would be the way to go as wear on the handles or blade would not be acceptable.

Also, most people would be content flipping a $100-$200.00 Bali compared to something of this quality and the materials used. I think 99% of the collecting population would see this knife from the beginning as a
show/display piece rather than a flipping Bali!

If you are the knife expert you claim to be, Bali's especially you would know that the knife could not be flipped period without it showing wear on the handles, latch and liners. And as you well know there is no wear.

Hand made is indeed that, Hand made, with some minor flaws, hand fitted, etc.

I have knives well in the $3,000- $4000.00 range in my collection, there is not a one that is absolutely perfect, or that I would use, they are what they are, hand made customs.

I am sorry you are not happy with the knife, I do not like or agree with what you say. I think your expectations on the knife being a one of a kind custom, hand made knife are unreasonable, and unrealistic.

The knife is tight and against the stops, centered, and true in the open position, being a little bit interested in Bali's, I own several, I can say that in the open position I have never had the need, or the reasoning to latch the handle? It is important to latch it in the closed position, and on
this knife it functions fine!

Robert Bartoli
 
Here's is my reply back to Robert->
**********************************

Robert,

Let me say that I never stated anywhere in our conversations that I was a "knife expert" - re-read my email, those are your words entirely... Nor did I write to you in any attempt to anger you what so ever. I merely suggested that perhaps someone has handled your inventory WITHOUT your knowledge, that's all. If you REALLY would like to challenge my skill & expertise in inspecting this knife, I would be more than happy to share my photos in a number of on-line knife discussion forums and solicit opinions of the membership at large - just say the word. How many people do you really think will find that totally loose latch "normal" on a $750 custom bali?

The photos were provided as a means of helping me express to you why I was not satisfied with the knife. All of the balis in my collection (all the way down to my $100 a piece Benchmades) have latches that lock fully in both the open and closed positions. But yet you want to suggest that I have "unreal expectations" that a custom should have an operational latch??? Come awn!!! Should a $750 custom knife be assembled with spacers that don't match?? Do you really think that's acceptable?

You also seem to feel that a bali of this caliber should be the "center of a collection" and not used for flipping. While I tend to agree with your contention, I still do occasionally flip all of the balis in my personal collection and I expect each of them to lock securely and be fully functional. Some "pivot" manipulations that I practice require the blade to be locked securely in the open position. I respect your opinion on your preference for the plastic pivot washers, but I totally disagree that metal ones would cause "unacceptable wear" particularly since Microtech, Benchmade, Cold Steel, and Dobruski all use them on their balis without problems.

The fact is, I called you and asked you SPECIFICALLY if the knife locked up securely in BOTH the OPEN and CLOSED positions. I would certainly not have bought it had I been told otherwise. It was also obvious that at one time this knife DID lock securely in the open position BECAUSE there is a wear mark in the blue anodize in the open position.

This has turned out to be a major disappointment (not to mention needless expense) and I had hoped for your kind understanding and for you to cheerfully handle this issue, but unfortunately it seems you want to merely insult me with your remarks. That's actually what I find most regrettable.. Your poor attitude with me does little to reinforce any confidence in your credibility. In any event, just let me know if you'd like for me to take those photos public with a request for opinions as to whether or not my expectations are "unreasonable". I had not intended to share them as I had anticipated (out of consideration for you) that you would have preferred to handle this refund discreetly.

In conclusion, I tried to do everything possible to ensure this would be a good transaction. I don't know what more I could have done, but it just didn't work out.. I do feel that you should re-consider the tone that you're using with me because despite the fact that I'm not happy either, I am trying to handle this as amicably as possible and would appreciate if you would do likewise.

Roger
 
So that's pretty much the story... I really hate having to go to all the trouble contesting CC charges, I hope this does't happen to any else out there. :(
 
Sorry to see that you are having this problem. Robert has a very good reputation with many of the members here and I hope that the two of you will be able to work this out.

There are definite problems with this knife that I would want fixed under warranty. The problems that I would want fixed are the latch, mismatched spacer and worn parts (unless I was told of these problems before I purchased the knife). If this was not done then I too would expect a refund.
 
I own several, I can say that in the open position I have never had the need, or the reasoning to latch the handle? It is important to latch it in the closed position, and on
Click to expand...
IMHO If the bali is made with a latch it should be able to lock in either open or closed position ..
Also some people do flip their high end balis and they should faction as intended...
Hope your guys setle this without bad blood
 
In my opinion, the wear (more like indentation) in the tang is possibly due to an improperly hardened blade.

It's a pretty design qne great-looking Damascus, but a pitty that it's just not right. The devil is in the details... and nowhere is that more true than in the balisong.
 
Sorry, I neglected to state that my outstanding issue with the seller is a $100 "re-stocking" fee that he's attempting to charge me..

The issue has been pretty much narrowed down to this be a "misunderstanding" of what "lockup" is on a balisong knife. The sellers description of lock-up is valid for a latch-less balisong (hand grip only). A $750 bali should have a latch that works, that's why I called ahead to verify that - end of story... :yawn:

I need balis that have latches to truely satisfy me and have only but a single latchless bali (Spyderfly) in my collection. I did not buy the balisong to never get flipped..

The sad part is the great deal of acrimony in the communications with the seller (I'm guilty here too). We have both managed to rub each other the wrong way and compromise seems unlikely. While I certainly hate "being the bearer of stink" I still feel a need to warn others to what I've had to go through with this seller over something that I have absolutely no fault in... At the same time I trying to be as fair-handed as possible in my hadling of this issue..
 
well this is kind of ironic because i have owned a brad duncan knife before and i know bob personally.
i won a green g-10 aftershock custom knife by brad duncan about a year and a half ago.i traded it for a plain sebbie almost immediately.it sucked.the knife was valued at @550.00 but i thought it was a piece of crap and i know i got the better of the trade.

so i guess what i'm saying is,bob is an honest guy and when he says the knife was new straight from brad he was telling the truth.
unfortunately brad isn't a very good knife maker especially for what he charges.so that's why the knife was on sale i'm sure.
brad has gotten a well deserved bad reputation for craftsmanship and bad business practices by serious collectors.

sorry things worked out the way they did but if you had asked a few people about duncan knives you might not have bought it.

bob does not sell used or reconditioned knives as new,in fact he lost money on that knife.
 
borinquen said:
so i guess what i'm saying is,bob is an honest guy and when he says the knife was new straight from brad he was telling the truth.

unfortunately brad isn't a very good knife maker especially for what he charges.so that's why the knife was on sale i'm sure. brad has gotten a well deserved bad reputation for craftsmanship and bad business practices by serious collectors.
Click to expand...

Hey Bud, I think you've hit the nail on the head!! (Thanks) But , so how can I resolve this with the seller? I NEVER accused the seller (regardless what he may think) of being dishonest in his initial post. I think I made it VERY clear that I didn't call this man's credibility into question.. I just want a JUST resolution because Brad's work is not my fault..

THANKS for adding in some valuable input..
 
Based on what has been presented here,I would say under the circumstances you should be entitled to a full refund.Good Luck.
 
You called and asked specific questions... and the item did not arrive in the condition stated...end of story. I don't think there is a wide margin for interpretation in the word "lock up." It locks in a position or it doesn't. I think a refund is in order.
In addition, was the $100 re-stocking fee ever disclosed to you before the purchase (over the phone, website, etc)? If not then I don't think that it is right (or legal, for that matter) for you to be charged said fee.
...just my .02
Hope you guys can get it worked out...
 
"Restocking fees" are appropriate when a knife is being returned because the buyer simply changed his mind. But, when the knife is defective, that's not the buyer's fault and the buyer shouldn't have to pay any fee beyond return postage.
 
For the record: I bought my Timebomb from Robert, and it arrived with the same 'burr' type marks in the area where the Zen Pins make contact with the tang.

Robert had the knife all of about two days when he shipped it to me, so the only conclussion i can draw on that speciffic aspect is that Brad Duncan usually ships Timebombs with those marks in the tang area.
 
The photos are clear and convincing!!

A full refund [including shipping costs] is in order.

A deal is never a deal unless and until both parties are happy.....
 
swingshot said:
For the record: I bought my Timebomb from Robert, and it arrived with the same 'burr' type marks in the area where the Zen Pins make contact with the tang.

Robert had the knife all of about two days when he shipped it to me, so the only conclussion i can draw on that speciffic aspect is that Brad Duncan usually ships Timebombs with those marks in the tang area.
Click to expand...

Understood. Did your knife latch at all? I had only heard 2 criticisms of the TB.. they were too light to flip properly and had a too loose a latch. I though that if this Damasteel had a nice latch..... Well, you know I would have been blowing all kinds of praise over Robert..

The sad fact is it did not work out that way, and I am not talented enough to do 180* pivots without a working latch. :shrug: I won't attempt any kind of 1/2 pivots either...it pretty much makes the knife useless for me.

For someone who likes "latch-less" balis, $750 is a score!!

I'm just NOT a "latchless guy", should I be ashamed?

If I'm damned, then why did I call about it in the first place????

I'm tired of this whole mess, and am sorry for subjecting my fellow bali friends with this crud.
 
He should just "hand make" another latch.... I mean how long would that take compared to having this small war? :rolleyes:

-pakora
 
pakoraman said:
He should just "hand make" another latch.... I mean how long would that take compared to having this small war? :rolleyes:

-pakora
Click to expand...

The knife latched perfectly in the CLOSED position... The problem is one of the dynamics of the way the knife was made. (loosee open / snug closed).

To let you in on a little secret, I'm certain that I can engineer a better friction fit lock. This experience makes me consider buying a good mill and trying to do more. who knows?
 
anyone said:
Understood. Did your knife latch at all? I had only heard 2 criticisms of the TB.. they were too light to flip properly and had a too loose a latch. I though that if this Damasteel had a nice latch..... Well, you know I would have been blowing all kinds of praise over Robert..


I'm tired of this whole mess, and am sorry for subjecting my fellow bali friends with this crud.
Click to expand...


Yes. It latches *tightly* in both positions. I forgot to mention, my TB has nylon washers, so i'd imagine all of them do. They're not uncommon in custom/handmade balis.

Can't speak for others, but i'm not tired of hearing about it. Thanks for taking the time to outline the events.


Edited to add: I've found the 'poor flipper' criticisms to be a little harsh. The handles are perhaps a tad on the light side, but it's nothing major.
 
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