The big knife retailers wouldn't risk their reputation by falsely advertising these knives as something they aren't. They would just stay away if that were the case. Knifecenter and knifeworks got a lot to lose.
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My first Kizer
- Thread starter Fish30114
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The big knife retailers wouldn't risk their reputation by falsely advertising these knives as something they aren't. They would just stay away if that were the case. Knifecenter and knifeworks got a lot to lose.
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They sell enough crap (Boker Magnum and the like) that they would be ok. It wouldn't necessarily be their fault either, they are going off what a manufacturer says. I just have a real hard time believing that a company with a sketchy background is actually using real, honest to goodness CPM S35VN, rather than some sort of Chinese approximate.
If they are, that's fine. Just don't advertise it as S35VN. If they were using some sort of equivalent, I'm sure it would perform well, provided that they actually know/care how to properly process and heat treat the steel. From what I have heard from some individuals (Chinese individuals mind you), a lot of Chinese manufacturers cannot properly heat treat VG-10.
evilgreg
Why so serious?
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It turns out I like my 3404 even more, now that I switched it to tip up carry. You really just need a longer screw with the same diameter and thread pattern as the frame screws (I used a screw from a knife I'd already pilfered one from for my first Southard STR clip, back before STR sourced some screws to send with them, a cheapo Bee L05-1).
It's much better to carry now. I'll snap a quickie picture later, but basically I just moved the clip to the standoff screw at the end of the lock side of the frame.
It's much better to carry now. I'll snap a quickie picture later, but basically I just moved the clip to the standoff screw at the end of the lock side of the frame.
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Evilgreg, I really like the way you got that clip reoriented. Unfortunately the clip on my Framelock, is mounted inside the Handle, near the end with the pivot. To move it would require drilling and tapping a new hole in the other end of the handle, and probably drilling a hole in the clip itself to access the screw. In it's current configuration there is a 'slot' milled in the end of the handle with the pivot, on the inside of that end of the handle where it is mounted. Nonetheless I remain impressed with this knife, and as an update, I helped a butcher friend bone out 8 shoulders and hind quarters of whitetail deer. That's for a total of 16. During that period I did not need to touch up the blade at all, and it remained shaving sharp. For my definition of shaving sharp it is--to be able to shave arm hair with light pressure and the blade held at about 30* to my arm. Using that definition, it remained shaving sharp along it's whole edge, now I call that a durable edge, and to me it shows that the blade is of quality steel. I have other knives that are of steels from S90V to ATS 34 to S30V, D-2 and others, that have similar edge retaining ability. Currently still awaiting my flipper!
GronK
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Big name retailers are in business to make money. As long as people want and are willing to buy cheap knives dealers will sell them. It isn't their job to be discerning, it's yours!
Comeuppance
Fixed Blade EDC Emisssary
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They have stated on a few forums posts and I think even on their site that they import the blade steels they use. I'm impressed that between importing the products overseas, production, and shipping overseas they still see any kind of profit at the price point we are encountering on this side of the world. I wonder how much they actually spend on materials and production...!
Heck, US manufacturers import Elmax, M390, N690, N680, Vanax, and K390 from Germany. How long do you think it'll be before we start seeing Chinese manufacturers buying from Bohler-Uddeholm? I wouldn't assume it would be very long at this rate.
As a sort of aside, it's interesting that it's not just a probability but a guarantee that any conversation about knives made by Chinese manufacturers will either involve or devolve into purely speculative criticisms from people who are just unwilling to accept that a Chinese manufacturer could produce cheap yet high quality knives. My favorite email exchange with someone involved the person bashing anything made in China, saying how it was all trash and he would never buy anything made there, and at the end of the email was the automatically-added tagline "sent from my iPhone."
People will praise the build quality of the Tenacious in one breath and state that anything made in China is garbage with the next. I hate to burst your respective xenophobic bubbles, but not all manufacturers in one country are the same. There are good and bad US manufacturers and Chinese manufacturers. Buck, for example, while made in the US, can't get consistent quality control on their Vantage lineup anywhere near, say, SanRenMu or Enlan keeps theirs on knives 1/2 to 1/4 the price.
I've started and been a part of many threads on this subject, and there might be a page or two of good discussion and feedback before it becomes somewhat racist and very xenophobic, with people discounting anything made in China out of hand without considering the possibility of exceptions. I understand that cheap Chinese manufacturing has been the go-to for many companies who want to produce poorly-made things for a quick buck, but your experience with having seen many low-quality items marked "Made in China" does not mean that is the height of every Chinese manufacturer's abilities or standards.
Anyway, I'm literally about to go to the post office to pick up my first Kizer that just arrived today. I'll fiddle with it for a while and see what I can tell you guys about it.
![KI3404A1[1].jpg](/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2Fnagornysknives.com%2Fimages%2FKI3404A1%5B1%5D.jpg&hash=4a38d61f68ead07924e7aa677f03dfce)
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I agree that any discussion of Chinese knives does devolve into xenophobia. That is not my intention here. I have zero problems with decent Chinese knives. The Tenacious is great, as is alot of Enlan and SRMs offerings. If an American company owned Kizer, I'd be a lot less suspicious. Unfortunately, a lot of Chinese manufacturers engage in unscrupulous enough that I have doubts about their use of S35VN. Remember that 8cr13MOV was discovered by Spyderco after their manufacture was labeling it 440C. A lot of the fake Hinderer and Strider makers have been using "S35VN" too. Some of SRM's knives are now advertised as using Sandvik steel. Do I actually believe that they are using Swedish steel? No, they very well might be using some Chinese equivalent. Of course, they might actually be using real 12C27. I don't know for certain, but I would not doubt it.
Which brings me to my next point. I'm sure the quality of Kizer's knives are very good, owners of them have said so. The quality of some fake Striders, Hinderers, and CRKs is superb as well. If Kizer was a maker of fakes at one point (I would not be surprised if this was the case) and they are trying to move legitimate manufacturing, I wish them the best. If Kizer cleans up their website (which needs some work), and is a little clearer about where they are sourcing materials, and develop some more original designs I wish them the best. Of course, they might be no better than Ravencrest Knives, that one company that brands fake microtechs as their own.
I hope you enjoy your knife, I must admit that alot of their designs are really nice, as is the cost. I'm gonna watch and wait until more info emerges.
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Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news here. Both of those companies sold "Mantis" knives, which claimed to contain 440V (S60V) steel long after it had dried up everywhere else. Yet the company claimed to have a limited/unlimited supply. Don't speak in such certain terms about that which is uncertain.
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Well, I hate to be the bearer of bad news here. Both of those companies sold "Mantis" knives, which claimed to contain 440V (S60V) steel long after it had dried up everywhere else. Yet the company claimed to have a limited/unlimited supply. Don't speak in such certain terms about that which is uncertain.
Hey, they might have found some extra 440V in one of their bunker's.
Comeuppance
Fixed Blade EDC Emisssary
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UPDATE:
It's perfectly smooth, with perfect lockup, and a very sharp blade. The only negatives I can find are that it is SLIGHTLY off center (I'm very, very, very picky about this) and I can't find anything in my house that accomplished adjusting the pivot. This will not be my last Kizer, methinks - I need to pick up one of the flippers.
I won't be able to attest to edge retention for a while, but I am familiar with S35VN from ZT, Spyderco, and Microtech - both use and sharpening. We'll see how it compares, but I don't think I'm going to be disappointed. (bias from the outset, I know)
It's perfectly smooth, with perfect lockup, and a very sharp blade. The only negatives I can find are that it is SLIGHTLY off center (I'm very, very, very picky about this) and I can't find anything in my house that accomplished adjusting the pivot. This will not be my last Kizer, methinks - I need to pick up one of the flippers.
I won't be able to attest to edge retention for a while, but I am familiar with S35VN from ZT, Spyderco, and Microtech - both use and sharpening. We'll see how it compares, but I don't think I'm going to be disappointed. (bias from the outset, I know)
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Glad everyone is getting their money worth so far....or at least feels that way.
I'm missing the value part though? For not a whole lot more money you can get well known knife maker products with high quality materials as well. Got a zt 0801 from a dealer brand new for 150 bucks shipped free. Are these as good as that with a 40 buck or so savings? Yeah we can argue minute details to we are all dead and gone.....but rather than do that.........is the value on these really there? I'm not seeing it....but I also don't have one in my hand either to really get it.
I'm missing the value part though? For not a whole lot more money you can get well known knife maker products with high quality materials as well. Got a zt 0801 from a dealer brand new for 150 bucks shipped free. Are these as good as that with a 40 buck or so savings? Yeah we can argue minute details to we are all dead and gone.....but rather than do that.........is the value on these really there? I'm not seeing it....but I also don't have one in my hand either to really get it.
I just ordered my first Kizer this morning. I bought the Ki4411, the Glenn Klecker design. Should be here on Thursday at which point I will post a thread about first impression's of the knife.
No more than I will ever use any knife I have I doubt that I will be able to tell the difference between S35VN, 9Cr18MoV, AUS8, 8Cr13MoV, 2Cr13, 420J, or Ou812 for that matter. But until it is PROVEN that it is something other than advertised, we are just rowing our boat upstream. The only thing I know to do is count on reports from people who are actually using the knives, and have used the same steel in a knife everyone is confident is the real thing. That is all we can go on until someone is willing to send the knife wherever it would have to go to be tested, and be willing to pay the fee. But then you run into people who will debunk the tester of the steel if it is proven to be as advertised. Would it ever stop.....I have my doubt's!
No more than I will ever use any knife I have I doubt that I will be able to tell the difference between S35VN, 9Cr18MoV, AUS8, 8Cr13MoV, 2Cr13, 420J, or Ou812 for that matter. But until it is PROVEN that it is something other than advertised, we are just rowing our boat upstream. The only thing I know to do is count on reports from people who are actually using the knives, and have used the same steel in a knife everyone is confident is the real thing. That is all we can go on until someone is willing to send the knife wherever it would have to go to be tested, and be willing to pay the fee. But then you run into people who will debunk the tester of the steel if it is proven to be as advertised. Would it ever stop.....I have my doubt's!
unwisefool
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