My first Kizer

[mattking]

I love my Kizer, infect it's probably my favorite knife that I own, not that I own many expensive knifes but I do have a fairly vast collection. Mine flips like a dream with zero wrist action and is super smooth. I wanted to take the clip off to rake a shot at heat andozing it and the torx screw stripped, I notified Kizer and they were quick to send me several replacements no questions asked. So far my experience has been great and will definitely be a repeat customer.

 

[RamZar]

I've emailed (also sent a PM to BF user Kizer Cutlery although that user has not posted since August 2013 -- last login was last week) Kizer regarding the erroneous blade lengths on their website and where they get their S35VN steel from. Also, included links to the two recent Kizer threads on BF.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Is anyone else as impressed as i am at how quickly Crucible responded to the inquiry?

 

[Bugout Bill]

Is anyone else as impressed as i am at how quickly Crucible responded to the inquiry?

If that was an accusation of me lying, it is 100% false. I can PM you the email if you like.

I was suprised that they responded quickly as well.

 

[chiral.grolim]

If that was an accusation of me lying, it is 100% false.

Not at all! I was just impressed. i guess i should have included a ":thumbup:" to show my sincerity.


By the way, i read through the Kizer vs Britton threads and was also impressed by their spokesman there. He certainly convinced me (with no small amount of help from Britton himself) of who was in the right. I am actually surprised that the company would continue dealing with Mr. Britton. On the other hand, it is clear to me that they produce stolen designs (Hinderer, etc.) which includes knives that folks here seem so impressed with. Why wouldn't it be impressive, it is afterall a strong-selling design in the hands of those paying the designer for its use It would not surprise me if Kizer had a relationship with "Kevin John" as those knives are, by most accounts, quite impressive in apparent quality, while also being blatant copies with no accountability for the blades being made of the steel indicated (why would they be?). I hope that the Kizer rep drops in to chat with folks and perhaps provide descriptive answers to polite questions from those curious or in doubt.

 

[evilgreg]

Not at all! I was just impressed. i guess i should have included a ":thumbup:" to show my sincerity.


By the way, i read through the Kizer vs Britton threads and was also impressed by their spokesman there. He certainly convinced me (with no small amount of help from Britton himself) of who was in the right. I am actually surprised that the company would continue dealing with Mr. Britton. On the other hand, it is clear to me that they produce stolen designs (Hinderer, etc.) which includes knives that folks here seem so impressed with. Why wouldn't it be impressive, it is afterall a strong-selling design in the hands of those paying the designer for its use It would not surprise me if Kizer had a relationship with "Kevin John" as those knives are, by most accounts, quite impressive in apparent quality, while also being blatant copies with no accountability for the blades being made of the steel indicated (why would they be?). I hope that the Kizer rep drops in to chat with folks and perhaps provide descriptive answers to polite questions from those curious or in doubt.

Hey, it's nice to be in a thread where I can agree with you. I generally feel the same way.

That said, last year I bought a few Kevin John knives to see if the prevailing BF wisdom was true ("junk knives", "locks that will fail", "made from tin cans", "not really titanium at all", "terrible fit and finish"). All of which were untrue, as far as I can tell, incidentally. I picked a few knives that I had no desire or remote intention to ever buy the real knife of, so it's not like I was cheating anyone out of anything.

As you can see, the Kevin John knives I purchased were not only clearly marked "K. John" but also "Sandvik 12c27". Don't get me wrong, the 12c27 is a fine steel to use in a knife, but it's not what anyone would pick if they were lying, is it?

The clones are so accurate that the guy that made the PT clone lies about his days as a high speed low drag black operator and the XM clone flips like crap . . .

 

[Comeuppance]

Not at all! I was just impressed. i guess i should have included a ":thumbup:" to show my sincerity.


By the way, i read through the Kizer vs Britton threads and was also impressed by their spokesman there. He certainly convinced me (with no small amount of help from Britton himself) of who was in the right. I am actually surprised that the company would continue dealing with Mr. Britton. On the other hand, it is clear to me that they produce stolen designs (Hinderer, etc.) which includes knives that folks here seem so impressed with. Why wouldn't it be impressive, it is afterall a strong-selling design in the hands of those paying the designer for its use It would not surprise me if Kizer had a relationship with "Kevin John" as those knives are, by most accounts, quite impressive in apparent quality, while also being blatant copies with no accountability for the blades being made of the steel indicated (why would they be?). I hope that the Kizer rep drops in to chat with folks and perhaps provide descriptive answers to polite questions from those curious or in doubt.

Ehhhh... I've handled my share of Kevin John knives (four) - they're not nearly the same level of quality as Kizer. Wild Boar is really just godawful for the price as well. I'm pretty much entirely done with SanRenMu (too small), Enlan (proprietary pivot on all the models I like), Ganzo (poor edge retention), Navy (horribad quality control), Kevin John (1/2 price for 1/4 quality!), and Wild Boar (1/3 price for 1/8 quality!).

Kizer has been a breath of fresh air for cheap bastards like me who just want something sharp they can use that has all of the quality hallmarks of a much more expensive knife.

 

[Bugout Bill]

Not at all! I was just impressed. i guess i should have included a ":thumbup:" to show my sincerity.


By the way, i read through the Kizer vs Britton threads and was also impressed by their spokesman there. He certainly convinced me (with no small amount of help from Britton himself) of who was in the right. I am actually surprised that the company would continue dealing with Mr. Britton. On the other hand, it is clear to me that they produce stolen designs (Hinderer, etc.) which includes knives that folks here seem so impressed with. Why wouldn't it be impressive, it is afterall a strong-selling design in the hands of those paying the designer for its use It would not surprise me if Kizer had a relationship with "Kevin John" as those knives are, by most accounts, quite impressive in apparent quality, while also being blatant copies with no accountability for the blades being made of the steel indicated (why would they be?). I hope that the Kizer rep drops in to chat with folks and perhaps provide descriptive answers to polite questions from those curious or in doubt.

Ah! Sorry, the internets does not convey tone well.

I kind of gave up trying to have an opinion on the Tim Britton case, it was too convoluted to actually make a judgement call. It's interesting that you mention Kevin John, his name popped into my mind as well. If he (or the people who make "him") are trying to transition into legitimate knifemaking, I hope they do well.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Hey, it's nice to be in a thread where I can agree with you. I generally feel the same way.

That said, last year I bought a few Kevin John knives ... not only clearly marked "K. John" but also "Sandvik 12c27". Don't get me wrong, the 12c27 is a fine steel to use in a knife, but it's not what anyone would pick if they were lying, is it?

...

The clones are so accurate that the guy that made the PT clone lies about his days as a high speed low drag black operator and the XM clone flips like crap . . .

Love the choils on those knives

Y'know, SandVik argues that their 12C27 is a BETTER knife-steel than these high-priced high-carbide "super" steels... But you are right, if you are selling a cheap knock-off, why lie about using a cheaper steel than the original? *shrug*

That last part is hysterical

 

[evilgreg]

Love the choils on those knives

Lol, I seriously wanted to make that joke, but I was afraid of derailing this thread even further than our current tangent to a tangent to a tangent

 

[chiral.grolim]

Ah! Sorry, the internets does not convey tone well.

I kind of gave up trying to have an opinion on the Tim Britton case, it was too convoluted to actually make a judgement call. It's interesting that you mention Kevin John, his name popped into my mind as well. If he (or the people who make "him") are trying to transition into legitimate knifemaking, I hope they do well.

Yeah, lack of tone ended a lot of relationships among friends of mine back in college. My apologies for the confusion. I will also be impressed if Crucible is able to track down a sale of their steel to Kizer specifically, though perhaps they could track shipments to China. It'd be moe helpful if the Kizer rep can comment.

And i agree, if they can transition to legitimate knife-making :thumbup: That includes simply purchasing design-licenses the way Boker and others do. If the quality of manufacture is good, then it helps the designer get his intellectual product out there (esp. if his name is mentioned by the producer) :thumbup:

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Just a theory:

Could Kizer be a Chinese company who in the past produced "made in USA" Knives for American makers?
Maybe they signed agreements which in the fine print said that Kizer could use the designs at their discretion? That would explain that there was a protest from the maker at first but then died down fast. Since maybe the "made in USA" from him wasn't really his and not US made. It wouldn't be really cool if that kind of contract became known to customers in a legal dispute or otherwise. Even if Kizer was not allowed to copy they can still do it since the makers would keep quiet in order to save their reputation and hide that their products were actually made in China.
It would also explain how Kizer didnt start with simple knifes but jumped right in the high quality market. They already had the tools available from producing "made in USA" knives for a while.

Again, just a theory and maybe there are better explanations. I actually hope there are.

 

[Bugout Bill]

Just a theory:

Could Kizer be a Chinese company who in the past produced "made in USA" Knives for American makers?
Maybe they signed agreements which in the fine print said that Kizer could use the designs at their discretion? That would explain that there was a protest from the maker at first but then died down fast. Since maybe the "made in USA" from him wasn't really his and not US made. It wouldn't be really cool if that kind of contract became known to customers in a legal dispute or otherwise. Even if Kizer was not allowed to copy they can still do it since the makers would keep quiet in order to save their reputation and hide that their products were actually made in China.
It would also explain how Kizer didnt start with simple knifes but jumped right in the high quality market. They already had the tools available from producing "made in USA" knives for a while.

Again, just a theory and maybe there are better explanations. I actually hope there are.

I doubt that they ever made knives for a US maker (Kai, Spyderco, Taylor), most of those are made by known makers, I think Sanrenmu makes Spyderco's Chinese knives. The things that need to be considered is:

-Making a ti framelock is not horribly difficult if you have machining knowledge, given the massive number of Chinese knife makers, I think there would be no shortage of knowledgeable people.

-Much lower material and labor costs in China

-Lower tooling cost.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

I doubt that they ever made knives for a US maker (Kai, Spyderco, Taylor), most of those are made by known makers, I think Sanrenmu makes Spyderco's Chinese knives. The things that need to be considered is:

-Making a ti framelock is not horribly difficult if you have machining knowledge, given the massive number of Chinese knife makers, I think there would be no shortage of knowledgeable people.

-Much lower material and labor costs in China

-Lower tooling cost.

Thank you. Makes sense
What I didn't consider is that if us makers think it beneficial to take legal actions they probably will be quiet about it until they take these actions. No need to give advance warnings to the other party.

 

[Comeuppance]

Since there's kind of a dearth of pictures from users, here:







The last picture shows my only gripe - just a little off center. Everything else is dead perfect. After opening and closing it a bit more, it is now in the top five smoothest knives I've owned and in the top five for lockup as well.

 

[A Justice]

What you're describing is a little odd to me, insomuch as it's nothing American manufacturers haven't done themselves. Knives that seem to have taken cues from other designs? What, you mean like this totally original Brous design that took no cues from any other knife:


Oh wait, the Brous knife there is only similar, maybe I should link to the Microtech 0777, er, Matrix instead?

At some point, saying that a knife looks like a cross between two other knives has to sound a little silly even to yourself. That's a lot of where these designs come from, American manufacturer or not.


If it turns out that Kizer sucks, and I mean that they stole Tim's design or whatever, then I'll treat them accordingly. For now I'm just being objective about the knife, and it's a nice knife. Really. I have plenty of titanium framelock flippers, it's not like I'm comparing the Kizer to my collection of Gerbers . . .

Read the thread, and it will be clear which members each part of the post referred. So much of your response falsely assumed my post was directed at you (I don't even remember reading your first post, so whatever things seemed pertinent to it were probably because your views were in line with others).

I was addressing the people trumpeting Kizer as the new Kershaw; budget knives with first rate quality (somebody even said they were above mid-techs), even though it's premature to even say they aren't scam artists (it's premature to say they are as well - and most of your responses as well as others have not addressed the matter at hand, so I made sure to add that in there before it became the point of contention of your next reply). I'm not interested in going into a detailed debate about Kizer cutlery, especially when it keeps drifting back to matters that were already discussed to a dead end; like the majority of people, they do not impress me enough to invest in, but my opinion of their product is completely objective. The reasons they don't impress me as a manufacturer, and the overriding reasons they aren't considered a desirable manufacturer are simple, so I will keep this as short as possible - it's redundant since I already covered it, but it's an answer to "these knives are so great, why aren't they more popular? You guys are racists and xenophobes". I wasn't impressed with the fit and finish either, but that's beside the point; they have ingrained problems with their brand that even the tightest tolerances and utmost quality will not address.

Forget about Tim Britton for a minute, the Kizer bandwagon are the ones that bring him up most often. He's not the matter of contention here. Almost ALL of Kizer's designs borrow in a big way from knives that are proven designs for other manufacturers. It's not silly to point out that one of Kizer's knives is basically a cross between two knives; it's hard for you or anyone to defend them as reputable when they have a catalog full of recycled designs. Where there is smoke there is fire, but in this case there is fire every time you turn around. First it's Tim Britton, then it's stealing TAD's logo, then you look at their entire catalog and all the knives borrow extensively from proven designs. Here is the knife I think looks like a Bodega and XM-18 had a baby - can you really tell me that you see no similarities?? That this knife looks no more like a Bodega than a Sebenza looks like a Spyderco Military?



There seems to be a faction that keeps pushing these knives as a great investment, but there is a reason that the majority of Blade Forums is staying away. The people that are hardcore fans of Kizer keep saying "these knives are a great value at 100$, I don't see why they aren't held in high regard" - well, I tried to explain the reason that I don't hold them in high regard, which is likely a subliminal trigger that makes other people suspect them of being disreputable. Their whole business model is 1. Research knives that sell well on the American Market 2. Produce knives that are heavily influenced by those designs and built with the most En Vogue materials and specifications 3. Sell those knives to the American market. They left out make original, cutting edge designs that aren't available from brands that are already respected. They also come from a culture that doesn't care so much about those things, so they do not reconcile why we do here, or why that's what most knife enthusiasts look for in a new brand - not the same old stuff for cheaper. You say you're not comparing them to Gerber, but I never really see any apt comparisons; what are these other Framelocks that do not compare to the quality in your Kizer? I have a Pro Tech Integrity and a ZT 0561 and they're both superior to the Kizer in fit and finish. Actually, the Kizer didn't do anything that I've not seen Gerbers do, so price and what they do right isn't the sticking point; it's the details, and what they're lacking that make them unimpressive to me as far as fit and finish goes; it's their unoriginality and tendency to steal design elements that make them unappealing as a brand. However, it seems like a small group want the de-facto opinion to be "they're cheap and unoriginal, but they're high quality and good value" for whatever reason - but before anybody will be willing to test the quality (it takes more than a handful of knives), they need to do better than they have done. They're going to be held to a higher standard because they come from a country that is known for unethical behavior and stealing, but so far they haven't even met the standard that mediocre American brands meet.

Given that the supply line to get S35VN wouldn't be more than 2 or 3 contacts deep, Crucible and Kizer should have no problem verifying the origin of their material. It was an impressive response time on their part. I was also under the assumption that Kizer was importing the material directly, and wasn't relying on a 3rd party in China (the pro Kizer group always says "They import it") - which would mean that Crucible would only need to verify their contact in the U.S.

 

[evilgreg]

Forget about Tim Britton for a minute, the Kizer bandwagon are the ones that bring him up most often. He's not the matter of contention here. Almost ALL of Kizer's designs borrow in a big way from knives that are proven designs for other manufacturers. It's not silly to point out that one of Kizer's knives is basically a cross between two knives; it's hard for you or anyone to defend them as reputable when they have a catalog full of recycled designs. Where there is smoke there is fire, but in this case there is fire every time you turn around. First it's Tim Britton, then it's stealing TAD's logo, then you look at their entire catalog and all the knives borrow extensively from proven designs. Here is the knife I think looks like a Bodega and XM-18 had a baby - can you really tell me that you see no similarities?? That this knife looks no more like a Bodega than a Sebenza looks like a Spyderco Military?

That's a pretty solid pivot; you side-stepped the bit where I directly compared this to similar behavior from American makers. If I told you that I could find a dozen non-Chinese company examples of "design similarity" such as you've described Kizer of being guilty of, beyond the Brous and Microtech examples I gave, would you loathe those companies equally? Or is it only when it's a Chinese maker that you have this deep enmity towards?

I can prove that Jason Brous has multiple models that are very similar to pre-existing knives, just as similar or even more than any of the Kizers. Have you composed multiple walls of text to document your rage towards him? How about that old favorite of mine, the Microtech 0777, er, Matrix? Or should I suppose that when a Chinese company isn't involved, these are merely cases of manufacturers flattering each other, as in "imitation is the sincerest form of . . ." Of course, if it were a Chinese company doing it, the same behavior would morph from flattery to diabolical, rage-inducing evil, I suppose.

And I have the usual suspects, all the Spyderco flippers, some ZT flippers (e.g. 0560, 0801, 0770, etc.) and so forth. Most of the popular production titanium framelock flippers are either in a drawer here some place or have been previously. I carry a Southard most days, and usually the 0801 on the weekend, and occasionally a William Henry on dressy days, and I don't think the Kizer I received is junk at all. In fact, I quite like it, especially now that I changed it to tip up carry.

 

[Bugout Bill]

I can prove that Jason Brous has multiple models that are very similar to pre-existing knives, just as similar or even more than any of the Kizers. Have you composed multiple walls of text to document your rage towards him? How about that old favorite of mine, the Microtech 0777, er, Matrix?

Ah, the Matrix. One of the few knives ever conceived out of spite.

 

[goldie]

I knew this thread would take this turn;not everyone can afford 500.00 to buy a knife,& its not like everyone is buying from kizer & no one else.Its just another choice on the market. I bought 2 & am happy,now its time to find the next cool knife,wether its kizer,kershaw,bm,spyderco.Its just another choice,its not the end of the world....

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

...Almost ALL of Kizer's designs borrow in a big way from knives that are proven designs for other manufacturers. It's not silly to point out that one of Kizer's knives is basically a cross between two knives....

Forget about Kizer for a second, IMO: Chinese in general are not capable of producing good design, design that the US street will find functional... Geo-politically, as a social system, Chinese doesn't have the base to come up with designs as Hinderer or whatever else in this line, their own original designs does not make any sense to US market, that's why they are copying successful designs or mixing and matching according to the target market, that's it... This is the trend now, Americans are looking for expensive materials and shiny, looks-like-tactical designs, this is what Kizer is producing...