My first Kizer

[POCEH KOCEB]

Quote Originally Posted by Comeuppance:

snip

I agree that any discussion of Chinese knives does devolve into xenophobia...I'm sure the quality of Kizer's knives are very good, owners of them have said so. The quality of some fake Striders, Hinderers, and CRKs is superb as well. If Kizer was a maker of fakes at one point (I would not be surprised if this was the case) and they are trying to move legitimate manufacturing, I wish them the best. If Kizer cleans up their website (which needs some work), and is a little clearer about where they are sourcing materials, and develop some more original designs I wish them the best...

I'm very much with Comeuppance on the subject about Chinese manufacturers, but I have to admit that I agree a lot also with Bugout Bill's position... My problem with Chinese manufacturers is mainly the price... If they can produce fake Striders and Hinderers with such amazing quality (even with Chinese steel for the blades), and sell those for below $60-$80, I don't understand why they have to sell those sort of "original" designs of the Kizers for 2-3X more... Regardless the price of the materials, I believe they can make original design knives and still keep the price around $100...
Those Kizers sure look good... I don't care for the most of their designs, the only model I actually find practical is the one with the spanto blade (sorry for the large size pix):

... Unfortunately they don't have it with option to move the clip for tip-up carry, I would wonder why, and they don't have it with black or some other than green color scale, so I'll wait...

 

[Comeuppance]

Glad everyone is getting their money worth so far....or at least feels that way.

I'm missing the value part though? For not a whole lot more money you can get well known knife maker products with high quality materials as well. Got a zt 0801 from a dealer brand new for 150 bucks shipped free. Are these as good as that with a 40 buck or so savings? Yeah we can argue minute details to we are all dead and gone.....but rather than do that.........is the value on these really there? I'm not seeing it....but I also don't have one in my hand either to really get it.

I don't even know if it's a "value" thing. Nobody looks at a $120 knife and says "what a bargain!" except for us. However, to find tight tolerances, attractive designs, and good materials at a good price is nice, regardless of the source.

I feel like I got more than my money's worth so far. Testing through use will be what will really do it, but, having taken mine completely apart, cleaned it, and polished the washers, I can tell you it's REALLY well made. We're talking mid-tech range build quality. Better than that, actually - out of the four Striders I've handled, there was only one with vault lockup like this one has, and none of them were anywhere near as smooth. It locks up as well as the XM-18 I had, too, meaning that you literally could not tell by tactile feedback that it was not one solid chunk of metal when locked open.

I did notice, however, one small thing: One of the phosphor bronze washers, the one on the lockside, was clipped - meaning that about 15% of the washer's circular shape was missing in what looked like a straight-line cut. Very odd. It's still very smooth (and even better now that I wiped off their lubricant and used nano-lube), but that's the first time I've seen that.

I really like the majority of their designs, and the fit and finish is fantastic for the price. If I find that this edge holds up at least as well as the ZT S35VN, I'll definitely be getting another Kizer. If it does as well as the Microtech S35VN (which is pretty unrealistic), I might be getting more than just one more.

The downsides are there, though. For one, there's no pride of ownership like you would get with a mid-tech. The resale value is low, too - and warranty service requires overseas shipping.

I think the real value with these is that you can use the knife without guilt. I envy people that can personally justify carrying and heavily using knives that cost half a grand, but I'm not in that boat. This knife feels like it cost that much, but I know it didn't and I can use it without hesitation.

No, it's not different. Look at the knife Chester posted, they both have the same skull design. TAD used two versions of the skull, one with the round eyes and one with the "mean" eyes and both designs have a tooth missing. I'm sure the knives are good quality, but like chester22 said, I won't support a company that I know steals designs. Too bad, because it sounds like they didn't even need to use the skull logo to sell knives. I'm glad the people who ordered them at least got a quality product.

I mean, really, it is pretty blatant. It's a little far to say they stole "designs" because that makes it sound like they copied a knife - when all they used is a graphic. Do you still buy Kershaw knives, even though some of their older model lockbacks look like the Buck 110? Do you own any Microtech knives, even though they straight stole the 0777 design? In this case, we're talking about a picture on a handle.

I find it offputting that they used the skulls, but, moreso, I find it just plain odd. Maybe one of the people working there just really liked that design, or something.

 

[RamZar]

I think those who want to denigrate Kizer will find plenty of excuses -- real or not. Tim Britton design, made in China, fake materials, stolen designs, why are they so expensive, you can buy US-made for slightly more, etc. It's their way of legitimizing to themselves not to try the Kizers and above all to make sure they spread the word long and wide for others not to either.

 

[Bugout Bill]

I think those who want denigrate Kizer will find plenty of excuses -- real or not. Tim Britton design, made in China, fake materials, stolen designs, why are they so expensive, you can buy US-made for slightly more, etc. It's their way of legitimizing to themselves not try the Kizers and above all make sure they spread the word long and wide for others not to either.

Then why not buy a fake Hinderer or Sebenza?

I mean, really, it is pretty blatant. It's a little far to say they stole "designs" because that makes it sound like they copied a knife - when all they used is a graphic. Do you still buy Kershaw knives, even though some of their older model lockbacks look like the Buck 110? Do you own any Microtech knives, even though they straight stole the 0777 design? In this case, we're talking about a picture on a handle.

I find it offputting that they used the skulls, but, moreso, I find it just plain odd. Maybe one of the people working there just really liked that design, or something.

Why does SRM put a jellyfish on the 710? Who knows. They probably saw TAD skulls, figured people like it, and put it on their knife, ignoring the fact that people are buying it because it is TAD, not because it has skulls on that.

Your comment about value I agree with. I like the Chinese domestics because I won't miss them if they get destroyed, plus they make good gifts for non-knife people who need a knife. Anodized Ti is nice, having it for $100 is even better.

 

[Comeuppance]

jellyfish on the 710? Who knows.

Pssst.

Hey.

Just thought I'd tell you.

It's a leaping flaming tiger.

Not a jellyfish.

 

[Bugout Bill]

Pssst.

Hey.

Just thought I'd tell you.

It's a leaping flaming tiger.

Not a jellyfish.

So it is.

 

[RamZar]

Then why not buy a fake Hinderer or Sebenza?

Nobody is condoning out and out fakes. The "copying" of the TAD Skull design may have been just an oversight or mistake. Nobody has proven design theft in the Britton situation nor that Kizer is using fake S35VN. Hearsay, conjecture or innuendos are not a basis for facts.

 

[Comeuppance]

Nobody is condoning out and out fakes. The "copying" of the TAD Skull design may have been just an oversight or mistake. Nobody has proven design theft in the Britton situation nor that Kizer is using fake S35VN. Hearsay, conjecture or innuendos are not a basis for facts.

And, adding on to that, the fake Hinderers and Sebenzas are never at the same quality levels. I bought a fake hinderer and a real hinderer - one of the really good hinderer fakes, if that makes any sense - and, while the Hinderer fake was a good knife, there was absolutely no comparison to the real deal. On top of that, there are dozens of Hinderer/Strider/Sebenza clone manufacturers out there. While some of those are very high quality and well made, you can never be sure of the quality given the nature of the market. Kizer is a semi-known maker with consistent high quality products, and I can forgive a copied picture on a handle of a non-copied knife.

As far as the Tango situation goes, methinks Britton doth protest too little since Kizer has come out to defend themselves...

...And he seems to be continuing to come out with knives that have a clear tie with Kizer. I present his latest design, the T-10, which has just recently been announced and is not yet available yet bears a striking resemblance to the knife I got today:

T-10:



Kizer 4412:

How strange that he's talking about using S35VN exclusively all of a sudden, too:
(Direct quote from timbritton.com)
"My steel preference is still bg42 but I am unable to locate a dependable source of bar stock in the right sizes. I am seriously evaluating S35VN as an alternative. So far I am VERY impressed.....looks as if this will become my primary steel."

 

[austonh]

I've been very interested in this company for a few months now and look forward to trying one out. All reports from buyers so far have been as good or better than comparable knives from well established companies. Looking forward to more tip up options and hopefully they start using bearings in not too long. At the speed they have "caught up" with the current knife trends I expect some really interesting things from them within the year. Sadly I'll have to wait a while for my Kizer purchase because I just spent an excessive amount on knives this month.... plus I have a few preorders... don't tell my wife. :-(

I want that new T-10 Kizer from Britton, but I want it at the actual Kizer prices.

 

[goldie]

As i have said earlier & in similar threads; if you went to a knife show & saw a kizer on the table,not knowing anything about it, you would be impressed by its quality, & you would think it was made in the U.S.

 

[Fish30114]

Unwisefool, and Chester 22, I stand corrected. I plead internet ignorance, I thought both pics Chester posted were of Kizers. The only skull I could find for TAD is the 'mean' eyes version, which has one full row of teeth. Pic here: http://store.tripleaughtdesign.com/Apparel/Apparel-Accessories/Mean-T-Skull-Dog-Tag

But as stated if that pattern is owned by Triple Aught Design, then Kizers use of it is as stated 'blatant' I am not here to defend Kizer, but it actually makes me wonder since I can't find that pattern at all on TAD's current webpage, if perhaps that pattern is in the public domain--whatever, I stand corrected gentlemen.

 

[RamZar]

TAD actually has several skull designs as portrayed in the images below from their website:

 

[A Justice]

I would say they're using S35VN (why don't somebody just ask crucible, or why don't Kizer just ask Crucible to confirm their source???), and it's the only steel that is unique enough in my experience that I would even stand a chance of identifying just by working with it. I sharpened a Kizer knife earlier this month, and I've gotten a feel for S35VN. The edges finish a little differently than even S30V, and the polish has a finish that is recognizable and unlike cheap stainless. I wasn't even thinking that the steel might have been fake, but I do remember thinking that it finished like I expected S35VN to finish.

The knife itself however isn't anything special. It's made as cheaply as you can make a Ti framelock. It's pretty clear to me what their business plan was, and it looks like their target market is eating it right up. I just looked at their lineup, and almost every model is blatantly borrowing from popular knives already on the market. I see one that looks like a Bodega and an XM-18 had a chinese baby, another looks like an emaciated Strider knockoff, several look like they borrowed extensively from ZT and Kershaw designs. They have a team of people sniping designs out out of Blade magazine, mixxing and matching, but not coming up with anything original. It doesn't surprise me that people have already accused them of design theft. They're pushing that boundary as far as they can. For a Chinese company to come forward with original designs, they're going to have to do better than this for people to give them any credit.

The problem with this discussion is that one group is chastising another for preconception, and at the same time vigorously defending Kizer despite their limited experience with the knives, and making as many or more assumptions than the group they're arguing against. You can't say Kizer makes a product with exceptional fit and finish after handling only a single knife (you can say they made one product with exceptional fit and finish), you can't say that nobody knows the details of the Tim Britton scandal and then insinuate that Tim Britton is now copying Kizer, and you can't pardon them for stealing one design element without entertaining the notion that the numerous similarities with successful products already on the market is more than a coincidence.

The only thing I'm even slightly impressed with is the pivot screw (it's ingenious to make one that can be turned with both a hex driver and flat head screwdriver). Just because they use legitimate steel doesn't mean anything if there isn't something worthwhile about their knives. Why not just buy a block of S35VN if all you want is the steel? You guys are looking to hard for something positive to say about Kizer while ignoring all the negatives, and it's just going to hurt yourself in the long run because they don't have it in them to make their products anything more than they are.

One day there will be a Chinese manufacturer that succeeds in the American market on original designs. They won't need salesmen and apologists to get people to buy their knives because the products will sell themselves, and they won't be faced with as much negative opinion because there will be no basis for it. Kizer was looking at the people who WOULD buy a knockoff Hinderer because it's cheaper; the people that don't care about the details if the price is right. Have at it, but it's going to be a hard sale on Blade Forums where members go 30 pages because somebody didn't put a disclaimer on their handled blanks. Just enough difference to avoid litigation is not enough difference to become a reputable manufacturer or even draw sales away from reputable manufacturers that are already proven, it wouldn't matter if they were giving them away.

 

[Bugout Bill]

snip

:thumbup:

Excellent, even handed response.

Would Crucible really know whether they are selling CPM S35VN and would it be easy to contact them?

EDIT: I sent Crucible an email inquiring as to whether or not they have sold their products to Kizer, I'll let y'all know if I get any response.

 

[longbow]

I like the one I bought. It is a tad big for me seeing as how I have downsized my carry length etc. But in a nut shell you won't find a better knife for the money. I don't get the skull thing on a blade or knife from any manufacturer. Doesn't make sense to me nor the use for it. I don't understand compound grinds mixed with flat grinds, chisel grinds or the like either. I think I am pretty simple in my criteria for a knife folder or fixed. Gotta be of good materials, has to be easy to sharpen, and if a folder the lock up has to be excellent and not unlock during use. Does the Kizer I own meet these criteria, yep it does. Have I had to sharpen it yet? Nope. Has the lock up moved, not one iota. Does it come unlocked with a good spine whack? Nope. Good to go. keepem sharp.

PS My Kizer is not a cheap knife, it is not made with cheap materials, it is finished flawlessly, grinds are crisp and sharp and I don't recall seeing folders like it. I would also like to see a copy of the business plan you seem to know so much about and see what the intent is. As for the spokesman they used, every company will use a spokesman that speaks the language of the country they are doing business in. As for the Tango thing and Tim Briton I seem to recall Kizer produced a copy of a signed contract Briton signed with them to produce the Tango folder for him. Also I don't believe for a minute Customs or anybody else would try and stop a shipment at a port of call on the word of a knife maker. I mean they brought them in a suitcase right? I think it sticks in a lot of folks craw that Kizer makes a good product. Don't know anything about them other than buying the knife I carry being made by them. It is stellar plain and simple. Other folks have said pretty much the same thing about the knives they have purchased from them.

 

[evilgreg]

The knife itself however isn't anything special. It's made as cheaply as you can make a Ti framelock. It's pretty clear to me what their business plan was, and it looks like their target market is eating it right up. I just looked at their lineup, and almost every model is blatantly borrowing from popular knives already on the market. I see one that looks like a Bodega and an XM-18 had a chinese baby, another looks like an emaciated Strider knockoff, several look like they borrowed extensively from ZT and Kershaw designs. They have a team of people sniping designs out out of Blade magazine, mixxing and matching, but not coming up with anything original. It doesn't surprise me that people have already accused them of design theft. They're pushing that boundary as far as they can. For a Chinese company to come forward with original designs, they're going to have to do better than this for people to give them any credit.

What you're describing is a little odd to me, insomuch as it's nothing American manufacturers haven't done themselves. Knives that seem to have taken cues from other designs? What, you mean like this totally original Brous design that took no cues from any other knife:

Oh wait, the Brous knife there is only similar, maybe I should link to the Microtech 0777, er, Matrix instead?

At some point, saying that a knife looks like a cross between two other knives has to sound a little silly even to yourself. That's a lot of where these designs come from, American manufacturer or not.

The problem with this discussion is that one group is chastising another for preconception, and at the same time vigorously defending Kizer despite their limited experience with the knives, and making as many or more assumptions than the group they're arguing against. You can't say Kizer makes a product with exceptional fit and finish after handling only a single knife (you can say they made one product with exceptional fit and finish), you can't say that nobody knows the details of the Tim Britton scandal and then insinuate that Tim Britton is now copying Kizer, and you can't pardon them for stealing one design element without entertaining the notion that the numerous similarities with successful products already on the market is more than a coincidence.

Except that a basic logical analysis of the facts seems to support Kizer's side. To wit:

1. Tim has at least some history of shady dealings, including claiming a kit knife as his own and misrepresenting the materials involved
2. The Tango didn't much resemble Tim's past work, whereas it fits right in with the rest of Kizer's (admittedly derivative) designs
3. Kizer has produced a contract, and Tim has produced, uh, nothing

The only thing I'm even slightly impressed with is the pivot screw (it's ingenious to make one that can be turned with both a hex driver and flat head screwdriver).

Agree to disagree on that one, I guess. The pivot screw is the thing I like least about the one I have. The sharp edges to it feel less well-finished than the rest of the knife.

Just because they use legitimate steel doesn't mean anything if there isn't something worthwhile about their knives. Why not just buy a block of S35VN if all you want is the steel? You guys are looking to hard for something positive to say about Kizer while ignoring all the negatives, and it's just going to hurt yourself in the long run because they don't have it in them to make their products anything more than they are.

I'm not sure who you're referring to, but assuming I'm part of it since I bought one and like it, let me ask this: how am I going to hurt myself by buying a knife and objectively reporting on it? I bought it, and I mostly like it, and have described as much. What's the problem with that?

One day there will be a Chinese manufacturer that succeeds in the American market on original designs. They won't need salesmen and apologists to get people to buy their knives because the products will sell themselves, and they won't be faced with as much negative opinion because there will be no basis for it. Kizer was looking at the people who WOULD buy a knockoff Hinderer because it's cheaper; the people that don't care about the details if the price is right. Have at it, but it's going to be a hard sale on Blade Forums where members go 30 pages because somebody didn't put a disclaimer on their handled blanks. Just enough difference to avoid litigation is not enough difference to become a reputable manufacturer or even draw sales away from reputable manufacturers that are already proven, it wouldn't matter if they were giving them away.

Apologists? Er, what? And knockoff Hinderer? That pre-supposes that first I want a Hinderer (I don't--if I wanted one I've been lucky enough in life that I can just buy one, that's below the cost that my wife would even raise her eyebrows at) and moreover that a Hinderer is somehow superior. I like flippers, and I have yet to handle a Hinderer that flips worth a damn, particularly the smaller ones. The 3" Kizer I bought flips great, by comparison. And people that don't care about the details? Which details? I'm just talking about the knife, and it's surprisingly nice.

If it turns out that Kizer sucks, and I mean that they stole Tim's design or whatever, then I'll treat them accordingly. For now I'm just being objective about the knife, and it's a nice knife. Really. I have plenty of titanium framelock flippers, it's not like I'm comparing the Kizer to my collection of Gerbers . . .

 

[Bugout Bill]

Crucible's response:

Hello,



Thank you for your continued support in the knife areas. We have a number of new and exciting CPM grades marketed to the knife arena coming out in the next year or so.

I am not familiar with Kizer. Do they have a website and we would look into them?

There are many problems with knock off products out of China, however if it is labeled and sold into the USA with our CPM Registered grades and symbols, we very much try to monitor those activities.

Many strong USA only producers, Chris Reeves, Spartan and a few others are very much being taken advantage of with products that are produced on the black market out of China.



Thanks



John Shiesley

Regional Sales Manager

Crucible Industries 575 State Fair Blvd Solvay New York 13209 USA 800-365-1180 x9135 315-317-3207 (Cell)

john.shiesley@crucible.com www.crucible.com

USA Producer of CPM, Stainless, Tool and High Speed Steels

Description: CI

I've emailed them a link to Kizer's website and am awaiting a response.

 

[austonh]

Another aspect to consider is that Crucible probably doesn't deal directly with small buyers such as knife companies; obviously the sales rep has heard of CRK and Spartan, but there are quite a few other small companies that use S35VN. Just as in any market, there is usually a distributor or vendor that buyers in large quantities and then sells in smaller to make a profit.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

Thank you, for doing this. :thumbup:
Should be interesting either way.
Also it could very well be that Kizer isn't buying the steel directly but goes through some distributor in China or even another country.

Crucible's response:



I've emailed them a link to Kizer's website and am awaiting a response.

 

[Bugout Bill]

Also it could very well be that Kizer isn't buying the steel directly but goes through some distributor in China or even another country.

This is quite possible.