My first knife sold!!!!

Jose Reyes said:
Laredo, I know you've been making knives for at least a couple of years, but why would you say you must be doing something wrong by selling a knife for the same price? I haven't handled your knife but they look to be crafted to about the same level, although in different ways.

I guess in my mind there is a major difference between the construction of the two knives. One is a “plain steel” forged blade with a stick tang, solid brass guard, and horn handle. The other is a pattern welded blade that has a four bar twist interrupt offset migration era styled core with a high layer density pattern welded edge, sandwich construction front and rear guards made with mokume and Beng Burl, a mokume pommel, and mokume ferrules. Not to mention the fact that grinding a double-edged dagger is much more involved than grinding a single edge.

The difference in "crafting" is obvious to me; but then again, everybody is entitled to his or her own opinion.
 
Another thought is if I was to have produced that same blade under the watchful eye and guidence of Kevin Cashen or Dr. Jim Hrisoulas and it was my third knife and I sold it for $2400, I would expect to recieve some flack from the fellow forumites.

Heck, I posted my first completed knife here years ago and recieved a healthy does of grief for it. :D ;)
 
Who would have thought such a simple question would bring so many opinions?

I met Butch at Willow Bow in April. He's a hell of a nice guy. Looking at his knife tells me he has talent. What little I know about Butch is that he has been a craftsman for all his life...that would leave me to believe he also has skill.

Anybody who knows anything about me, knows I have held the Willow Bow crew in the highest regard. Ed, Bill, Eldon, and now Butch are all good guys.

Ed has shared his thoughts, his time, and his shop with me over the years.
I am grateful for everything Ed has allowed me to experience.

Jose,
I know you are a huge Fowler fan but to to suggest that the amount of work and craftsmanship that went into the "viking" style short sword that was posted is equal the Butch's knife is highly inaccurate. Even accounting for a complicated HT...there is little comparison. I will leave decisions about aesthetic values to others.

Maybe there is jealousy....maybe there is disbelief...I don't know. I really don't care. If any maker can get high dollars for his work...I say go for it!
Get what you can, while you can!

As for posting the price at the urging of the buyer...
I have to say it is immensely disrespectful to every maker here to do it, even if you have permission. All of these guys have worked there butts off to achieve a a name and face for themselves. Regardless of their fame, acclaim, or obscurity they deserve respect.

Somehow this thread feels like a big raspberry to all those folks who don't command high prices because they don't have a big name behind them.

I don't think Butch intended for it to seem that way. But reading some of these posts a lot of guys felt that way too.

I know that my opinion here may affect my relationships with some of the people involved. That makes me sad. If a disagreement like this one shakes a friednship, it is too delicate for this turbulent business.

Butch I wish you only the best

Shane
 
My first comment will be about Loredo's (shaun's) piece;

That was an absolutely amazing knife, and from the standpoint of a maker, looks to be a masterpiece to me. the forge welds in the blade look flawless, all the fit and finish is amazing, and the materials are well chosen, overall, it's a wonderful knife. (did you notice how straight the laminations in the mokume are?)

All things being equal, a forged 52100 blade, with brass and sheephorn is going to take a mere fraction of the time and even material cost to produce as a migration era viking dagger with mokume accents.

As far as everything else goes, I'm sure that Ed's knives perform quite well, but it's the style that I don't really like (no offense) And I think 52100 is a great steel, it's not the holy grail of steels in my opinion, but it's a great steel. I make a lot of knives out of it, and it does well.

As for names.... I know a guy named Jeff.... does that count for anything? :)

Tony
 
Bill,

Please don't interpret my post as trying to throw sand at anyone. It took me a good long while to type up what I posted and only managed to get about half of what I was feeling across. I can see the effort it took to produce Laredo's knife, by the pattern in the blade and the clean lines, fit & finish, etc. But then that's why he was able to sell it for $1200. How long did it take Butch to create his knife? Maybe he also made $9 an hour when it's all said and done, but if he made more or less why would that affect what anyone else is producing? Will it make the market unstable, is there only so much cash out there for knives and he's infringing on someone else's rightful chunk that they earned?

I don't think that just anyone would be able to take Ed's workshop and be able to produce knives of that quality in a couple of months. Butch has shown a lot of natural talent and perhaps the fact that this was his first sold knife played a part in the decision of the collector to purchase it. Who wouldn't want Jerry Fisk's first knife, yeah, that real ugly one, how much would that be worth today? Would it be worth more if he had managed to make it a bit prettier and more functional? I also don't see anything wrong with using his association with Ed to sell his knife, considering the he made it in Ed's shop, used his equipment and techniques and had the benefit of Ed being right there to point out all the little nuances that can effect performance. As long as the knife is warrantied to perform to a similar level I don't see a problem at all.
 
Laredo,

I just wanted to add that I don't mean to "devalue" the effort it took to produce that knife. It obviously was a very detailed project. It's tough to make a living as a knifemaker and no matter what project you decide to work on, or how much of your talent you manage to infuse into your creation, there still has to be someone out there with the same tastes willing to buy it. I'm not sure how you felt by my apparent lack of appreciation of your hard work but perhaps it was similar to Ed's reaction at reading your post that basically attributed his career-long efforts to smoke and mirrors and hocus pocus voodoo steel.

Shane, I think you're a stand up guy and my opinion of you has only risen. You made some good points and spoke up despite your relationship with those involved. I wish you the best.
 
I think Butch told me his Pronghorn sized knife was around $600 smaller version or $800 for the larger, and $1200 for this camp size. Again, I just want to say what a decent guy he was to meet. I think he's got a lot of talent and going a long way.
David
 
Shane, I was afraid my long winded posts would start alot of conversation but you whipped me with just 5 little words and got everyone goin... :D First off I want you to know that from the very first time I met you at the Willow Bow I realized how much you respect Ed and the friendship you have with him. I very much like you and feel you're a very down to earth and talented guy and consider you a friend. I appreciate your input. As you say there are alot of different ideas coming from this and I personally don't think it is all bad when things get shaken up a little bit and get people to thinking.

To everyone:
I do not mean any disrespect to anyone here and firmly believe that we all have our own ideas and values and it doesn't hurt to share them. Maybe I am too thick skinned(or maybe thick skulled) to take any of the posts as insults and I don't think that most of them are meant to be insulting.
I wish I had been able to be here and try to keep up with this thread and replied to each response as it came in but that didn't happen so I'll try to give my response to each general subject discussed.
First off I am not trying to jump into the world of knives to dabble a bit and try to make a quick buck then be gone. I have given alot of thought into it and have dedicated myself to learning all I can and devote as much of myself as possible to this trade and to Lady Knife.
As for paying dues I can only say that I feel I have been paying my dues to the general organization I call LIFE. I have worked with my hands all of my life and have found that there have been few things that I have tried that I could not succeed at if I put my mind and soul into it(lets just not discuss music) :D I started my own construction business specializing in remodeling over 11 years ago and I built my entire business on my reputation for quality work. I have only ever given my customers one promise and that is I may not be as inexpensive as the other guys out there but I will commit to give them the very best product I can and that my number one goal is that they are completely satisfied with my work.
When I went to Ed and told him that I wanted to learn from him it was not just about how to make a knife but how to make a High performance knife in the manner that he does. Of course that opens a whole new discussion since we all have our ideas on how a knife should perform and what is "in" or not, and what materials, styles or methods are best. I can only say that if we didn't have different ideas then it would be a boring world. I haven't just taken a week or 2 of teaching from Ed and struck out on my own. I have been spending most all of my free time(just ask my wife who thinks she's become widowed) with Ed learning, practicing and exploring his knives, methods and materials and making my knives.
Yes my knives resemble Eds but that is because I find his knives to be one of the best working knives I have ever seen or used and I am really not ashamed to emulate them. I feel that I put my hard work and soul into my own creation as I am forging, shaping, and finishing my knives so I really do feel they are my own creation even though they are styled like Eds. When I first started my knives I sat down and visited with Ed about the fact that I felt that the sheephorn handle and brass guard were his trademark and asked if he would mind if I decided to use them on my knives since I liked the way they work. He very graciously gave me permission to do so. One promise I have made to myself and to Ed is that I will never finish a knife in his style unless it measures up to the standards he places on his own knives and those he is teaching me.
I am not saying that my knives are worth more or less than anyone elses. Laredo posted pictures of a very beautiful dagger. I cannot honestly comment on the the "value" of it since I have not worked with damascus and the dagger is not my knife of interest right now. I can only honestly say that I think it is a beautiful peice and I can see he put alot of work into it.

I simply priced my knife at what I honestly felt that it was worth and figured that if there is a buyer out there that sees what I see in it and also sees something in my abilities or character then they may purchase it. I feel that it would be a disservice to Ed to sell a knife that meets his standards of both performance AND quality of fit and finish for a very low price. To me that would be a true insult to him.

Jose, I appreciate your last posts and feel that they go a long way to helping explain alot of things. I very much appreciate your kind words.

I know this has gotten to be a longwinded reply and I probably have not addressed everyone here but I will follow up later.

I hope that I may someday get the pleasure of meeting those of you who have taken time to get involved in these discussions and I do wish everyone the very best in their endeavors.

Butch
 
jose. I see that you are one of Ed's biggest fans and no matter what anyone says or thinks your going to stick tight as a tick to him. This is good, and to be honest if I had spent as much money on the knives that you have from Ed (assuming all those on your avatar are yours) I would think he was the best of the best too.

The fact is, most all knife classes are good, but when people come from one particular class and anounces to the public just how fantastic they're work is NOW just because they attended this 1 class for a short peroid, in my opinion it takes away from the true craft of knifemaking. It leads the public to believe that a short amount of time spent with another maker is all that is required to produce a knife that is equaled only by those that pay and spend time with this one maker.

Also you brought up a warrenty issue
I keep hearing about the high performance knife, but what is that exactly. People keep posting how a knife from this class will do everything but fly on its own, but I'm from Missouri and you need to SHOW ME that this is more then just crap being blown up the skirts of the public. What kind of warrenty do these knifemakers honestly give. If they claim their knives will bend 20 times and not break, will these makers warrenty a knife to do this if a buyer decides to abuse a knife this way and replace it free of charge if it breaks on bend 19. If not what difference does it make and why should I believe what they say in the first place.

I test my knives religiously and have chopped,diced, edge flexed, bent, drove them though 55 gallon barrels and so on, but I won't warrenty a knife that a person wants to use as a 55 gallon barrel can opener. So do you really believe I do all this to my test knives, just because I said I do, honestly I do, but why should you believe me. This is my point, don't just tell me, show me, and if your going to use 20 bends as a selling point you had better be ready to warrenty that knife if it breaks on bend 19.

No, the true art of the craft goes a lot deeper then the so called high performance knife, so when I see someone getting credit just because they spent some time with someone else, it strikes a nerve with me, as I know for a fact it has with many other knifemakers that have read this thread.
I'm not claiming anyone here is not a nice person or not honorable, but we need to educate the public about hand crafted knives and thats there's more to the art then just attending a short knifemaking class.

Good luck with all your future knife sales Butch, it sounds like your on the way to stardom.

Bill
 
Bill, I agree that one week or one class with anyone does not make a knifemaker. As a quote from my last post " I haven't just taken a week or 2 of teaching from Ed and struck out on my own. I have been spending most all of my free time(just ask my wife who thinks she's become widowed) with Ed learning, practicing and exploring his knives, methods and materials and making my knives."

I am not trying to advocate that spending time with or attending Ed's or anyone elses seminar will make anyone a knifemaker. The message that I am trying to send when I mention Ed is that if you're interested in making a High Performance blade then you can learn the techiques that Ed has developed by attending one of his seminars. As far as becoming a knifemaker that is up to the individual and his dedication and abilities.


As for a warranty I will warrant that my blades will withstand the rigors of normal use of that knife for what that knife it intended to do. I have not stated or indicated that any of my knives are warranted to perform any set number of the tests that we talk about or that they will never break. I have simply stated what our test blades have withstood to give people an idea of the durability and useability of them. Every blade that I make is tested for edge flexing, tip toughness and cutting ability on hemp rope. If it does not pass the standards set by Ed then I do not consider it a High Performance blade.

I hope this helps to answer some of your questions and also to clarify what I am trying to say.

I appreciate your well wishes and also wish you the best.

Butch
 
Bill,

Yes, I'm a fan of Ed's work and am very happy with my collection. That would be true if I had spent a dollar on each knife or a thousand dollars an inch. All my knives are for my own enjoyment and I don't expect everyone to have the same tastes I do. When you talk about the true craft of the knife you are speaking of your own opinion. For whatever reason Dan thought Butch's knife was worth the asking price and I don't feel anyone else should take it personally or as a reflection of thier own ability if they happen to charge less for their own work. Neither do I believe that Ed's methods are the only way to make a quality blade. Ed's work really speaks to me but I'm a fan of Ed Schempp, Al Pendray, Don Fogg and Joe Szilaski among others and don't feel that their work is sub par in any way.
 
First, just because Butch sold his first for 1200$ doesn't mean he'll sell the next for that. Or that he'll have a mile long waiting list. Time will tell on both. Will Fowler style knives be all he ever makes? Again time will tell.

How much does a knife cost? However much a knife buyer will pay, and however little a knifemaker will take.

I admit to a little jealousy, but I didn't make that knife so it's not my place to say what it's worth.

All in all good job Butch, now lets see what you make next, just don't post the price, it seems that is like kicking over an ant hill.
 
Will, thanks for your reply. You sum it up very neatly
"How much does a knife cost? However much a knife buyer will pay, and however little a knifemaker will take."

I have one other order right now and and a few other prospective buyers. I don't expect to become deluged with orders immediately and since I am starting out as a part time maker I am not in a pinch to sell.

As with any business you must balance price/quality/ and quantity. I would much rather be remembered as selling a few great knives at maybe a bit higher cost rather than as the guy that tried to sell a large quantity at the expense of quality. (PLEASE DON'T READ INTO THIS THAT I AM IN ANY WAY SAYING THAT PEOPLE ARE SELLING LOW QUALITY KNIVES)

I realize that time will tell whether or not I was able to walk the tightrope as I either start selling knives or wind up with one hell of a collection of my own knives.. :D I have set my own standards of both fit and finish as well as the quality of my blades and I don't intend to comprimise that for the sake of selling more. I am confident that people who buy my knives will appreciate the type of knife and the quality that I am striving for.

I do agree that I swatted the hornets nest by posting the sale price. :D

Thanks again for your input and your kind words.

Butch
 
Why do you guys all use and capitalize the same terms, like "High Performance blade" and "Thermal Tightrope"? All of this mystical mumbo jumbo about "caressing the soul of Lady Knife" "mechanical reduction" and "bands of wootz" harms the integrity of the knife community just as surely as prating on about "Covert Deanimation", "Controlled Blood Splatter" or the superiority of Kraton and Carbon V steel.

Why is it harmful? It makes knifemakers seem at best like a group of earth worshipping mystics, and at worst like a bunch of mental masturbators, coining silly catchphrases about every mundane aspect of knifemaking.

I'm not saying that Mr. Fowler's techniques and those or his, um... (students? offshoots? worshippers?) aren't effective, as they clearly are. I just think the terminology and silly catchphrases will do the knifemaking community some harm in the long run.

Respectfully,
Jeb
 
Jose Reyes said:
Bill,

When you talk about the true craft of the knife you are speaking of your own opinion. For whatever reason Dan thought Butch's knife was worth the asking price and I don't feel anyone else should take it personally or as a reflection of thier own ability if they happen to charge less for their own work.

Thank you Jose. I appreciate your input on this. I know you handled my knife quite a bit at Blade Show and seemed to be at least somewhat impressed with it. I will have that knife displayed on my table at Blade Show West if anyone is interested in veiwing it.

We enjoyed meeting you in Atlanta and look forward to seeing you in the future.

Butch
 
One thing I must say.....

To become proficient at making knives or anything (fill in the blank with any hand crafted object, or art form) You need at least one of the two following:

1 Natural tallent; I had a guy in the shop several years ago, who after hours of tutleage still couldn't make a point on the end of a bar with his hammer. I had another guy who had never so much as nailed 2 x 4's together who was making damascus on his second day in the shop.

OR

2 True determination; that same kid who couldn't make a point on a bar had enough determination that he was going to learn one way or another. Eventually he built his own forge, and started working at home, he began to understand fire and metal, and now, he makes his living working metal (as a jeweler, I admit, but he makes about 10 knives a year, and they're truly amazing) and the guy who was making damascus on his second day in the shop? He's never so much as finished a knife from that first billet, but he does have it on his mantle.

I've taught several people in my shop, and never recieved any compensation for it, not that I think there's anything wrong with being paid to share information or provide guidance, I've just never done it. Several of the people are now working in metal, one is a jeweler, one a welder, one works part time as a blacksmith for a living history museum, and I've lost track of several others. I believe that a good class can truly shorten the learning curve, but you still require one of the two first mentioned traits, if you have both, you're ahead in the game.

Perhaps I should start charging a modest fee for my classes, I can see the add in the classifieds now: Learn blacksmithing, earn up to $75,000 a year! all I'd need was 50 students a year paying $1,500 each, that along with what I make swinging a hammer otherwise, and I wouldn't be lying. :)

It looks to me like butch has both natural talent, and determination, so I'm sure he'll make a lot of knives. I have no Idea how many he'll sell, but that's another matter entirely.

As for the makers offended that he sold that knife for that price... I say we all jack the prices up to match on everything we sell, and see what happens :) Of course, some young kid will decide that he can make and sell knives for half that price, but the problem for him will be that since all the other knives are $1000+ collectors will think his knives must be junk, just from the price point, and he will, of course, go unrecognized, and unsung untill years later, when he realizes all he has to do is raise prices.

Just throwing my own 2 cents worth in.

Tony
 
Jebadiah_Smith said:
Why do you guys all use and capitalize the same terms, like "High Performance blade" and "Thermal Tightrope"? All of this mystical mumbo jumbo about "caressing the soul of Lady Knife" "mechanical reduction" and "bands of wootz" harms the integrity of the knife community just as surely as prating on about "Covert Deanimation", "Controlled Blood Splatter" or the superiority of Kraton and Carbon V steel.

Why is it harmful? It makes knifemakers seem at best like a group of earth worshipping mystics, and at worst like a bunch of mental masturbators, coining silly catchphrases about every mundane aspect of knifemaking.

I'm not saying that Mr. Fowler's techniques and those or his, um... (students? offshoots? worshippers?) aren't effective, as they clearly are. I just think the terminology and silly catchphrases will do the knifemaking community some harm in the long run.

Respectfully,
Jeb


Amen to that Brother.
 
jose you quoted, "When you talk about the true craft of the knife you are speaking of your own opinion. For whatever reason Dan thought Butch's knife was worth the asking price and I don't feel anyone else should take it personally or as a reflection of thier own ability if they happen to charge less for their own work."

When I talk about the true craft of the knife, I mean all the aspects that are learned and incorperated into the craft. It takes years for many of us to learn (if we ever do) all that is needed. To learn to forge, grind, heat treat, fit/finish, make damascus/mosaics, wootz, engrave, inlay, carve, etc. These are all crafts of the art and should be appreciated for the years of hard work and dedication needed to accomplish them. So when it is published in a way for the public to assume that all that is needed to produce a hand made knife is to take a short class,I find it an insult to my many years of hard work and dedication.

Further more, I have not at any time said anything about the price Butch sold his knife for, nor do I give a rats butt. Nor do I have any throughts with Butchs ability to make a knife, there again I don't care. What I do care about is sending a bunch of hipe out that can discredit and underscore all the years needed to become proficient at this profession.

I'm done, most people will only read and believe what they want to, no matter what else is said or written. I sure hope the public isn't lost in all the smoke.

Bill
 
B . Buxton said:
When I talk about the true craft of the knife, I mean all the aspects that are learned and incorperated into the craft. It takes years for many of us to learn (if we ever do) all that is needed. To learn to forge, grind, heat treat, fit/finish, make damascus/mosaics, wootz, engrave, inlay, carve, etc. These are all crafts of the art and should be appreciated for the years of hard work and dedication needed to accomplish them.

Further more, I have not at any time said anything about the price Butch sold his knife for, nor do I give a rats butt. Nor do I have any throughts with Butchs ability to make a knife, there again I don't care. What I do care about is sending a bunch of hipe out that can discredit and underscore all the years needed to become proficient at this profession.

I'm done, most people will only read and believe what they want to, no matter what else is said or written. I sure hope the public isn't lost in all the smoke.

Bill

Just feel compelled to write, speaking from sort of a middle ground. I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous, but can't really seem to step over that line.

Some makers ignore fit and finish to an artform, producing work that is "Evolved Folk Art". Other makers on the opposite end of the spectrum produce pieces so clean, crisp and machined, they are almost inhuman. A contrast, without being mean, but pointedly speaking in a manner as such befits, would be A Scagel/Moran/Hendrickson to a Loveless/Walker/Lake. There is a place for most, if not all, at the table.

Part of it is the art and craft, part of it is luck, part of it IS marketing. The more financially AND artistically successful of the makers will accept that some degree of smoke and mirrors is necessary to place one's work over that of others, in terms of popularity and price. Personal belief in the smoke and mirrors need not, and should not apply. It is important to take your work, and not yourself, seriously.

Some makers use commercial damascus, some make adequate damascus/knives, some make great damascus/marginal knives, and some excel at the whole enchilada, should they decide to use that material at all.

As a former tattoo artist, I learned that some people love their tattoo artist, great work or crappy work. They are not buying the art, they are buying the artist. When you try to educate them on why their tattoo is crappy, they get defensive. I have seen the same with knives and knifemaking. The idea is and should be to get to the individual, maker or collector, as early as possible, and educate them on as wide a range of ideas as possible.

Unfortunately it is almost impossible to teach aesthetic appreciation for things like design, balance, ratios and proportion. I believe that it is there or it is not. Loveless would be a prime example. He may not believe in sole authorship, :D but he has simply designed some of, if not the, sexiest knives in modern history, and some emulate, but do not surpass, his designs extremely well.

What the ABS in the last 5-10 years has done has changed the way that forged blades are regarded. For the first time, metal mushers are consistently putting out work that is the equal, fit/finish and design wise of stock removal work. The impact of that is absolutely mind blowing. The range of materials right now is absolutely staggering in implication and application.

While any one school of thought/execution may "Hype" it up to the nines, and produce small bodies of accolytes and syncophants, the education of the public is occurring at a degree at this point and time, with the internet and dedicated groups of individuals, in such a way as to make the INFORMATION unavoidable. If this body of information is ignored, or passed up, that would seem to be a conscious decision on the part of the individual knifemaker or collector. I do not believe that hype or hucksterism will prevail over fact, craft or skill. I do believe that certain parties, both maker and purchaser, will steadfastly cling to their beliefs and opinions, in the same way that one man's garbage is another man's gold, for eternity.

In other words, the truth will out, it just might not happen as fast as you would like, and you might not see the particular truth that you hold dear claim victory during your lifetime.

Just my .02.

STeven Garsson
 
Congratulations Butch! I was excited to read that you have sold your first knife. I can feel your excitement and happiness through your words and I think that's wonderful! I was impressed with your knives at the Blade Show and even more so with your character. I have always been impressed with the Blade community and how friendly the people are and how they are always willing to share information and help others along the way. I think that knifemaking is where it is today because of these great people. It's unfortunate that politics is sometimes forced upon us regardless of profession. In good times and bad, you are doing something that you love to do and wow, what an amazing thing! The one thing that I have learned is that you are your only competition; you know your truth and your passions and what you want to do. If you are happy, then you must be doing something right!! Congratulations again and I truly hope all the best for you going forward!

Trina
Atlanta, Georgia
 
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