My first knife sold!!!!

It is part of almost any profession.

To deny, not accept or ignore that FACT is naive.

Politics is present whenever there are three or more people interacting.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Butch,

It was good to meet you too, good job on your first few knives.

Tony,

Good post, nice work on that rose in your avatar.

Bill,

Yes, it will take Butch years to master his craft, there is no doubt about that. What I don't understand is what hype do you feel he has been spreading that's undermining your years of effort as a knifemaker? As far as I can gather it's the short amount of time he's spent as a maker. But if he has in fact only been making knives for a few months then is it really hype? If there's no problem with the price that was paid, aside from the ettiquette issue of having openly posted that information, and the knife lives up to Butch's claims, then what's the problem?

Steve,

Well written post. Would you please elaborate a bit in regard to what truths you'd like to see vindicated. I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on art versus the artist, aesthetic appreciation of design, balance, ratios and proportion and what hype or hucksterism you're referring to, if any in particular. Please do so by e-mail in all confidentiality if you'd prefer, Liner7@Yahoo.Com.

Einstein, who managed to unravel most of the mysteries of the fabric of space and time, spent the last decades of his life in a fruitless effort to unify relativity and quantum mechanics into a single beautiful, symmetrical equation. Only recently has technology advanced to the point that some of his predictions could be tested and have been validated, eg gravity waves, atomic condensates, etc, yet he was still wrong when it came to his fundamental ideas of the quantum world. What I mean to say is that even though there may be a natural beauty in symmetry, just because an object doesn't meet your standards it doesn't mean that it isn't art or that someone else won't be able to appreciate it's beauty. It's all relative and anyone can be wrong... ;)

Edited to add: {hugs} to Trina :D
 
Hey I just counted, if we take verybodies 2 cents, we can almost afford a soda, but since it was my idea, I get dibs on the first sip :)

Interesting and timely thread.

Tony
 
Originally Posted by Jebadiah_Smith
Why do you guys all use and capitalize the same terms, like "High Performance blade" and "Thermal Tightrope"? All of this mystical mumbo jumbo about "caressing the soul of Lady Knife" "mechanical reduction" and "bands of wootz" harms the integrity of the knife community just as surely as prating on about "Covert Deanimation", "Controlled Blood Splatter" or the superiority of Kraton and Carbon V steel.

hahahahahahhehehehehehhohohohohohohoho -- stop it, my ribs are hurting - stop it!
 
but I wanted to know if the knifemakers here preferred that it be public, or we take it offline?

I have gotten some offline comments that said my points were good, and supported what I have said before, but my response to your questions could be lengthy, and I don't want to suck up public bandwidth if it is not held to be of interest to the resident knifemakers here.

You and I are guests in this Forum.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hey Ed, what did your first knives sell for? Probally not $1200.

I wonder if any of these makers sold their first knives for that much? I think the list could be a bit longer.

Fisk
Scagel
Moran
Loveless
Johnson
Warenski
Schmidt
Mcburnette
Hanson
Pardue
Henry
Hendrickson
Smith
Newton

I bet that when these makers started out they priced their knives where any new maker would, low so they could get their work out there to the public and make a name for themselves. Then as their work got better their prices rose as their skill level did. That's paying your dues!
 
Kohai999 said:
but I wanted to know if the knifemakers here preferred that it be public, or we take it offline?

I have gotten some offline comments that said my points were good, and supported what I have said before, but my response to your questions could be lengthy, and I don't want to suck up public bandwidth if it is not held to be of interest to the resident knifemakers here.

You and I are guests in this Forum.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

Keep it public, it too much fun to miss.
 
In the back of my mind, I can't help but wonder if Butch may have been ill-advised somewhere along the way. Maybe so, maybe no.
 
Arrrrggh---

I couldn't do it.

Had to edit it all away.

Like they say, "You can sit there quietly and let them think you a fool, or you can open your mouth and leave them with no doubt."

:D
-Nick-
 
It was a good talk, and I respect his position, and his passion for the knives that he collects. We are interested in some of the same makers

I'd like to remove some of the possible ambiguity to my statements.

I don't believe that there is any substitute for time and hard work IN THIS CRAFT to justify asking and being paid a certain price for a knife.

I don't believe that there is any ONE TRUTH in knifemaking. These days good knives don't even have to be steel, they can be titanium or ceramic or Stellite. Steel is still the most popular medium though.

I believe that Ed Fowler is in the hunt for the best knife that he can make. I believe that there is sincerity, integrity and honesty in the mans' persuit. I consider Ed a friend, but feel that if we cannot be honest with our friends, they are not friends. I don't believe that his students are Ed, and I believe that they have to find their own way, and they paint themselves into a corner to NOT TRY and find different looks, styles and solutions to the problems presented by knifemaking.

I believe that Butch Deveraux is wrong headed to start out this way, and I believe that Ed is wrong headed to allow him to try it. It is highly limiting by the nature of the thing, and limits based on materials and aesthetics from square one cannot be a good thing, ultimately. There is a fine line between copying and emulating the master.

It is my belief that as Mr. Buxton pointed out, to learn ALL aspects of knifemaking are equally important. This, to my mind, is everything from what materials work, to what logo to choose for a business card, to how the table is laid out at a show. To cherry pick what elements of hard work you are going to put into the effort IS an insult to the other makers toiling in obscurity, but doing damned fine work.

I believe that it is fine to have a favorite maker, but I do not have a favorite maker. I love knives, and count many who make them as close friends, and look forward to our spirited and respectful disagreements, as much as I look forward to our mutual agreements.

I am searching for my own truths in all things knives, as much as any other person on the planet can, and I hope I never think that I have the answer, the any one ultimate truth.

Thank you to everyone for the opportunity to chime in.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
If I may, I'd like to address a few topics that have arisen in this thread.

Apologies

First off, I'd like to start with something of an apology for stirring controversy. Butch was very reluctant to post the price. His initial announcement of the sale didn't even mention the price and he only did so here at my insistence.

I still think it was the right thing to do. Butch has the potential to be a great maker one day and it's admirable that he's made such a good start. Be it positive or negative, a lively discussion can only be good for him. If you are in any doubt as to the quality of his work and the value of the knife, go along and check it out at Blade Show West, where it'll be on his table.

A Fair Price

Secondly, I am adamant that it was a fair price to pay. All my old finance/ economics textbooks define market price as an arms-length transaction entered into by a willing buyer and a willing seller. And that it was.

We both thought long and hard about the deal. You really have to understand our thoughts to understand the sale.

(Butch, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is what I gathered was your side of the bargain: ) Butch is a new maker and tremendously serious about his potential knifemaking career. He had already decided to keep and use his first knife, but sharing a corner of Ed's table in Atlanta, offered his two subsequent creations for sale. His second knife, the one I eventually bought, was a very special piece. It is a substantial knife, and probably the equal of the majority of Ed's production in terms of performance, fit and finish. Butch didn't really want to sell it, but (I understand) decided to offer it at a price that he'd be a fool to refuse.

As for myself, I am a collector and also a maker in my own right, so I know what makes a good knife and what goes into it. I like to scout shows and forums looking for new, or under-appreciated talent. Sometimes it’s a bit of a gamble, but at worst, I’ll end up with a good using knife.

Having made arrangements to attend his class, I stopped by to visit Ed's table and was struck by the similarity of Butch's work in terms of form, fit and finish, and furthermore, by Butch's own influence, which you can see in the shape of the blade and the fit of the handle. At the time, I didn't buy a knife because Butch was an unknown and because of the vast selection of knives, materials and machinery that I could have spent that sum on at the show. Nevertheless, the knife, and the new maker, stuck in my mind.

After the show, I travelled up to Riverton to study under Ed. Due to the state of Ed's shoulder at the time, Butch (and Jeff, another capable new maker) ended up instructing about half of the time.

I was instantly struck with Butch’s skill, which was out of all proportion to his supposed experience. He forged, ground and fitted the knives like a mastersmith (And yes, I have seen mastersmiths forge). His work was impeccable and his attitude mature and professional. I was astounded that under his guidance, I managed to produce a blade capable of ace-ing the obscenely difficult High Performance Blade tests at the first attempt. I was and am grateful for all the effort he made and the time he took away from his more lucrative day-job and his wife, Shannon.

About half way through the course, I had made up my mind to buy the knife. I have only once before paid so much for a knife, a damascus bowie by Shawn McIntyre, which I am sure would have been judged the best of show at the Australian Knifemaker’s Guild show in Melbourne the year before.

I decided to buy the knife based on:
  • The knife’s intrinsic value as a perfectly finished, high performance, using knife;
  • The knife’s potential value as his first knife, sold and first large knife made if he sticks to knifemaking and makes a name for himself;
  • His low production and limited opportunities to buy a knife from him later; and
  • My gratitude to Butch as teacher and friend;

Butch has a lot of feeling invested in that knife and he has said he’d buy the knife back if I change my mind. That won’t happen, but if so, I’m sure I could find a half dozen people willing to pay me more for it that I did.

Paying One’s Dues
I can see how it would seem appropriate that a knifemaker should slave away making piles of trash before finally making a name for himself. After all, most of us have done so, and I for one have never made a knife worth half this price.

However, it doesn’t have to be so. By virtue of Ed’s many years of practice and research and Butch’s long career working with his hands as a contractor, the dues have already been paid in kind. You can see the guiding hand of the master in the apprentice’s work.

What’s Butch’s Next Knife Worth?
You can decide that for yourself. You can pay his asking price or you can walk on by. Only, don’t kick yourself if you regret missing the chance when you look back on this thread one day, when Butch’s knives are selling for double the price.

A Style of His Own

Eventually, Butch’s knifemaking may evolve in a different direction to Ed’s. On the other hand, he and Bill and the others may pick up the Pronghorn banner when Ed eventually retires. This is ultimately Butch’s decision, as artist and craftsman and as his own man.
 
Mumbo Jumbo

One more thing I'd like to say is about Ed Fowler's work. Ed and Butch, and Jeff can all attest to my having a healthy skepticism regarding the necessity of the high degree of forging, the endless thermal cycling and other processes that appeared at first sight to do little more than increase production cost.

As the week's training passed, I slowly began to appreciate the decades of serious study that Ed has devoted to improving the performance and utility of his knives. Finally, as I tested my blade, I realised that not only had he managed to create an high performance blade, but he had perfected a process that produces incredibly consistent results.

As a scientist by training, I can appreciate Ed's rigorous research methodology in his unending quest. Ed also works hand-in-hand with a metallurgist and with other bladesmiths so that he can be certain that his achievements are not some experimental aberration. He freely publishes his findings and methods and teaches them to new makers like myself.

This is no secret, mystical, voodoo magic. It is methodological progress.
 
"First off, I'd like to start with something of an apology for stirring controversy. Butch was very reluctant to post the price. His initial announcement of the sale didn't even mention the price and he only did so here at my insistence.

I still think it was the right thing to do. Butch has the potential to be a great maker one day and it's admirable that he's made such a good start. Be it positive or negative, a lively discussion can only be good for him. If you are in any doubt as to the quality of his work and the value of the knife, go along and check it out at Blade Show West, where it'll be on his table."

I don't accept your apology, you crapped in the punch bowl, and who in the hell are you, anyway? What dues have you paid, where did you come from, and what gives you the right to turn a valued forum into an Ed Fowler and Co. infomercial. You do an awfully poor job of being contrite. You put Butch in a BAD position, basically poisoning his future in a lot of ways, and you put Shane in a bad position, because he had to choke down a lot of bile and concern himself with how his friends would view him, you made makers here unnecessarily upset, and, Man, did you rile me.

"Secondly, I am adamant that it was a fair price to pay. All my old finance/ economics textbooks define market price as an arms-length transaction entered into by a willing buyer and a willing seller. And that it was."

Do you know anything about the aftermarket? That is usually not a big subect covered by economics books. Aftermarket prices are determined by purveyors and cash paying collectors. I know most of them, never heard of you before, and you can ask around about me, I am pretty well known, not by all, but you can ask Ed. I have bought and sold knives professionally for over 10 years, and you are a freakin' amateur. Bob Neal, Les Robertson, Larry Connelly, these guys would be the ones to ask what the "value" of the knife is. Right now, it is a cold fish.

"We both thought long and hard about the deal. You really have to understand our thoughts to understand the sale."

It is none of our business, and should have stayed that way.


"Sometimes it’s a bit of a gamble, but at worst, I’ll end up with a good using knife."
That is true.

"My gratitude to Butch as teacher and friend"

You can remove your head from his or your posterior, any time you like. I could help you, if you prefer.

"I can see how it would seem appropriate that a knifemaker should slave away making piles of trash before finally making a name for himself. After all, most of us have done so, and I for one have never made a knife worth half this price.

However, it doesn’t have to be so. By virtue of Ed’s many years of practice and research and Butch’s long career working with his hands as a contractor, the dues have already been paid in kind. You can see the guiding hand of the master in the apprentice’s work."

I did not see your name as a knifemaker in the Knives Annuals that I checked, so again, I am seeing AMATEUR all over this, and you write somewhat flowery, too "You can see the guiding hand of the master in the apprentice’s work."? A blind man could see that, it is a very fine copy. Please, do not quit your day job!

["b]What’s Butch’s Next Knife Worth?[/b]
You can decide that for yourself. You can pay his asking price or you can walk on by. Only, don’t kick yourself if you regret missing the chance when you look back on this thread one day, when Butch’s knives are selling for double the price."

Maybe, maybe not. Were I a professional betting man (I can be) I have $100 bill that says not in the next 10 years, unless you stack the deck, and as I don't trust you already, I'll just keep my money.

b]A Style of His Own

Eventually, Butch’s knifemaking may evolve in a different direction to Ed’s. On the other hand, he and Bill and the others may pick up the Pronghorn banner when Ed eventually retires. This is ultimately Butch’s decision, as artist and craftsman and as his own man

Don't you freakin' dare put Mr. Deveraux and Bill Burke in the same sentence, you make it sound like they are equals, and they are not. One has done it for a long time, and is still paying his dues, and is a damn fine maker, the other is another newbie maker, proven to Ed maybe, and you, and that is it. Bill posts on this Forum from time to time, and he has remained silent thus far, leading me to more questions, and not enough answers. Him I trust.

I'm done with this thread, I need to cool off, and maybe switch to decaf, but I had no intention of getting worked up until you stumbled in here like a bull in a china shop.

STeven Garsson
 
ZDP-189 said:
Paying One’s Dues
I can see how it would seem appropriate that a knifemaker should slave away making piles of trash before finally making a name for himself. After all, most of us have done so, and I for one have never made a knife worth half this price.
Click to expand...

Okay, perhaps the term Piles of trash isn't appropriate, my second knife was a damascus quillion dagger, I made the damascus, and did all the work without even the help of a power drill, let alone other power tools, and just because I didn't sell it for over $1000 doesn't mean that it was junk. I am personally offended at the comment, and the inference that the price point of a knife is an indication of quality.

I don't charge a lot for my knives, usually under $400, does that mean their crap? Heck, I've been making knives for 14 years, but you still don't know who I am, do you? Have I paid my dues, I guess not, but I've made and sold at least 400 blades, most of them are in hard use environments. so far, only 2 have been returned, one for cleaning after going overboard while flats fishing, another had the tip break off when used to punch a hole in a steel plate, he said it made the hole fine, the tip broke when they tryed to ream the hole round for a bolt to fit through.

As for the guidance of a master, yes, it will improve the learning curve, but unless you're able to make your own mistakes, and learn new techniques, you simply become a clone. Back when the guild system was in effect, the tearm journeyman meant that you travelled (thus the journey in the name) from shop to shop learning under different masters, the reason was simple, if a student wanted to progress, he needed further input, and it wasn't untill he'd studied under several masters, and devloped himself that he could join the ranks of the masters.

I don't test my knives to see if they'll bend 180º, I test them to see that they spring back to normal from a 30º flex, why you ask? because I don't dig out canoes with my knives, if I wanted a scorp, I'd have forged one.

I make knives my way, and I sell them my way, for you to say "hey I sold a knife for $1200" I say that's great, but for you to say "I've sold a knife for $1200, I've now obviously surpassed you, simply by the price I command" then I'm offended.

The idea that was posted that Controversy is good publicity was quite confirmed by the post of the buyer, heck, after all, you've got to make sure your investments will go up in value. :grumpy: I personally do feel offended at the way this was presented, and even more so by the comments that followed., but Butch, I don't think this was your doing, so, you're not the jerk in my book.

Tony
 
There is no doubt that this thread is one of the best I have seen in this forum. I butt heads with just about anybody that is willing to go to “battle.” Not out of arrogance or ego, but because I only know a few things, and I want to learn more. But the things I know are true, proven from quantitative empirical and theoretical knowledge.

My words are very often misconstrued and contorted, but I try not to argue semantics (even though I do).

I can not help being the skeptical creature that I am. I should have been born in Missouri as opposed to Michigan. I want you to show me the quantitative empirical data that supports the process, and I still have not seen it. I stated in my main response that I didn’t intend to “disenfranchise” Ed’s work. That is not my intent. But if he does have a metallurgist working with/for him, why isn’t the scientific data published? You say it is “methodological” so where is the proof?

In my mind I wonder many things, some which I share and some I don’t, and sometimes the ones I do, I shouldn’t. But when I brought up the controversial subject of how to make Timascus and why I wanted to produce it myself, it was not well received. I was called a “thief” and a “chode” because of my quest for knowledge. Ultimately I figured it out (the exact process) and also performed a transient liquid phase bonding technique that obtains similar results.

The preface leads me to quote your words; “I was astounded that under his guidance, I managed to produce a blade capable of ace-ing the obscenely difficult High Performance Blade tests at the first attempt.” In my mind, if you can produce what you desire in a blade, and in your words; while being a “maker in my own right, so I know what makes a good knife and what goes into it,” then why do you feel the need to purchase the blade as opposed to making it yourself?

That is what got me in “trouble” with the Timascus thread. I didn’t want to buy it; I wanted to make it, not for profit, but just to make it. It was a new adventure and challenge for me. That to me is what makes a maker. Go ahead and just do like Ed did, but whose coat tails did he ride into “stardom?”

I should, at this point, explicitly announce that I don’t denounce Butch’s or Ed's abilities, motivation, or achievments. Just so we all know I mean no ill respect.

But then again, I am a newbie, so take it as you will. I will consider myself a newbie until I can stand up and butt heads with Mete and Kevin Cashen on metallurgical knowledge/thoery and get my fit and finish to where no one but me can notice the uneveness of the quillions on my dagger ;) .

Anyway, I think I missed half the points I wanted make, but who cares? The most important thing is that I finally made it back into the shop tonight. How is that for a thread hijack? :p Now I just need to rebuild my salt pot. :barf:
 
Another after thought. If you boys are so up on this high tech performace steel, whay can't you all figure out how not to log on to each others BF accounts?

It has happened more than just on this thread. :confused:
 
Okay Steven, calm down. The earth is still on its axis. :)

I deleted my last post... maybe I can try again.

I don't think Butch or ZDP were trying to crap in the punch bowl. I could be wrong, but I don' think so.

I would venture a guess that most folks here were offended because they felt like "hey, I sold my first knife for $1200" was construed as bragging. Not sure what the reason for disclosing the price was. I don't mention it unless asked, but that's just me.

I will admit I was blown away when I saw that a 52100, brass and sheephorn SECOND knife sold for $1200. But I wasn't purchasing it, so it doesn't really affect me. My concern for Butch, is coming out of the gate too fast. Leaving yourself only room to go up, from a VERY high start is tough.

I feel like I've been working pretty hard on paying my dues, and after over 4 years as a full-time maker... I'm only now starting to get there.

I can't say that there is a "universal paying dues path or degree or certificate." So what is/was paying dues for me???

It started with trying to make knives. Going to shows and meeting makers. Spending hours and hours working on knives, going to classes if I could find any (which required some serious $$$).

Finally I got a table at a show, and again, and then again... networking with makers. Getting my name and face in front of people all while trying to make a better knife.

I went to Blade and sold hunters that were clay-hardened, polished to 4000x, and 2000x hand-rubbed handles for $150. I sold 10" bowies for $350. I even sold damascus hunters with stag handles for $150.

Were they worth more than that??? I sure hope to shout they were! But collectors/buyers of customs are buying the maker just as much as the knife. The knife sitting on the table may have been worth $1000, but the young maker standing behind it wasn't.

That's a bit of a break for Butch, as ZDP stated he already thought very highly of him and his devotion.

Standing next to a big name for anything always takes me back to my old job as a personal trainer. We always had young guys that were "buff by association."

They were skinny, not very strong guys, that would work out with big roid freak muscle-heads. They always acted like they were big dogs too, because people were so impressed with the people they were working out with. They mistakenly thought some of that attention the big boys were getting was somehow for them too.

But if/when you put that little guy in the gym all by himself, he didn't garner a second look from anyone. Without the big-dog standing next to him, he was just a small guy starting out with weights, trying to get somewhere in the gym.

I'm not calling Butch a skinny, punk teen-ager ;) But I think you can see the thoughts behind my analogy.

I think Butch needs to have some of his own ground to stand on

A huge part of it for ME, has been getting to a point that I can make the knives I see in my mind become a reality. Not just make a knife that's pointy and can cut. But make the knives I've been envisioning, with the same lines, materials, and execution.

There-in lies another part of the disagreement. I wanted to make my own knives, my own style. Part of "my dues" was finding that.

It doesn't happen overnight. I think you're lucky if it happens in a couple years. I'm still working on it.

I don't get the idea of wanting to copy another maker's work, but hey, again... that's just me.

I learned a lot from Mike Vagnino. Mike learned a lot from Tim Hancock. Now while all three of us pride ourselves in making forged blades with great precision and clean knives... none of us make knives exactly like the other.

I think most makers see copying someone's style directly as "cutting to the front of the line."

Now this gets touchy.

I like Bill Burke very much. I consider him a friend, and respect him greatly. But I was a little shocked when his ad came out in Blade that read, "as close to a Fowler as you can get." It's not my business what his ad says... but he is a really talented guy that can make a knife all to his own standards and vision. He had a water quenched tanto on his table at Eugene that was one of the most memorable blades of the show to me.

So I'd much rather see, "The best damn Burke you can get." And let his start/friendship with Ed stay part of who he is, but not define him or at least his work.

Many of us know he certainly has what it takes.

I want to be known/remembered for my own stuff, and hope that things like striving for perfection, a dedication to heat-treating and performance, and being *not too much of a prick* are some of the things that define me as a bladesmith.

Butch seems like a great guy, and I look forward to meeting him at BladeShowWest and looking over his work!

The always verbose,
-Nick-

http://www.wheelerknives.com
 
NickWheeler said:
A huge part of it for ME, has been getting to a point that I can make the knives I see in my mind become a reality. Not just make a knife that's pointy and can cut. But make the knives I've been envisioning, with the same lines, materials, and execution.
Click to expand...

......Right on!.....
 
Steve, again, no offence was meant. Personally I wouldn't think of my post as an infommercial; I simply like Ed and Butch's work and I was happy to pay what it took to buy the knife I liked.

Tony, thanks for your comments. I never meant to imply that you were producing "piles of crap" or that his work was necessarily better because I paid more for it. Anyway, many makers tend to undervalue their own work; you might be surprised what some people would be prepared to pay.

I, personally, have made enough knives to have amassed a good collection of knives that I would be embarrassed to sell. That's what I was referring to. Knifemaking is currently my only source of income, so by that measure, I am a professional, even if the quality is surpassed by many amateurs.

Nick, thanks for realising that the posts were not intended to be political.
 
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