My Manix 2 Maxamet Just Snapped !!

[craytab]

It is not a design issue. People dont buy high performance sports cars for off-roading.

With almost any kind of scoring application, where medium to high pressure is required along with a length of reach that geometrically makes it impossible to precisely control the angle of the blade in relationship to what's being scored, would be the wrong usage profile for Maxamet.



This isnt Buck or Benchmade, the steels they use are relatively inexpensive and idiot proof, and their heat treat protocols are over hyped.

Had this been a different steel, I'm confident Spyderco would have handled it differently.

Spyderco also makes knives with blades and steels that are idiot proof, virtually all of their knives in fact. Maxamet is not one of those products.

I'm not a Spyderco customer because they make dumbed-down knives that look pretty and have warm and fuzzy warranties.

I buy Spyderco knives because of the design, because of the steel choices, because of the usability, and because they're pushing the envelope of what is possible.

A knife is a tool and the end user is responsible for using the right tool for the job.

You are wrong on many levels here.

 

[Ippon98]

If the task is deemed abusive by Spyderco, they can do better to warn their customers of proper use. Clearly a lot of people think that task is reasonable.

If the problem is a faulty product, their warranty can improve.

I love Spyderco as much as the next guy, but there is room for improvement no matter how you slice it.

EDIT: yes, pun intended

 

[SubMicron]

I haven't seen anyone asking for "unconditional" replacement. What I have seen is people expressing their belief that this is a design issue on Spyderco's part. That makes it conditional.

The only steels where the existing blade designs are problematic for some, are the ones that are well known to be the most brittle, such as Maxamet and S110V.

The standard production and less expensive S30V would be a better choice for scoring drywall.

Spyderco cant be expected to redesign their knives every time certian segments of the market demand these types of high wear resistance steels.

Spyderco goes farther than any company on the planet to make sure that independent and credible people (Larrin) have steel samples so they can accurately report on the properties of the different steels so people have a clear understanding of what they're buying.

While I do believe it would be a best practice to include a clear warning in the box, Spyderco is under no obligation to replace the knife even though no such warning is included. They have put the information out there.

 

[SubMicron]

You are wrong on many levels here.

Feel free to elaborate. I don't take any of this personally and I embrace disagreement.

 

[ronnie hood]

Give a 488 pista a 4 inch lift and some off road tyres and it would work.
Now there is a problem, maxamet is limited in its applications,so does the consumer change what he does with knife or spyderco change or limit the application of the steel.

The only concern I have is how some have been replaced and some have not.
Makes me wonder if he didn't start this thread whether it would have been dealt with differently.
Personally I think so

 

[Eli Chaps]

It is not a design issue. People dont buy high performance sports cars for off-roading.

With almost any kind of scoring application, where medium to high pressure is required along with a length of reach that geometrically makes it impossible to precisely control the angle of the blade in relationship to what's being scored, would be the wrong usage profile for Maxamet.



This isnt Buck or Benchmade, the steels they use are relatively inexpensive and idiot proof, and their heat treat protocols are over hyped.

Had this been a different steel, I'm confident Spyderco would have handled it differently.

Spyderco also makes knives with blades and steels that are idiot proof, virtually all of their knives in fact. Maxamet is not one of those products.

I'm not a Spyderco customer because they make dumbed-down knives that look pretty and have warm and fuzzy warranties.

I buy Spyderco knives because of the design, because of the steel choices, because of the usability, and because they're pushing the envelope of what is possible.

A knife is a tool and the end user is responsible for using the right tool for the job.

The only steels where the existing blade designs are problematic for some, are the ones that are well known to be the most brittle, such as Maxamet and S110V.

The standard production and less expensive S30V would be a better choice for scoring drywall.

Spyderco cant be expected to redesign their knives every time certian segments of the market demand these types of high wear resistance steels.

Spyderco goes farther than any company on the planet to make sure that independent and credible people (Larrin) have steel samples so they can accurately report on the properties of the different steels so people have a clear understanding of what they're buying.

While I do believe it would be a best practice to include a clear warning in the box, Spyderco is under no obligation to replace the knife even though no such warning is included. They have put the information out there.

I'm not sure why you feel the need to be a Crusader here and I don't need you lecturing me on Spyderco's contributions to the industry and community. I've been on the Spyderco train for a loooong time.

Are you implying that the OP and others who have had their knives break are idiots?

If scoring drywall, again, just accepting that was what was going on, is too much for Maxamet and makes one an idiot for attempting it, then what type of cutting tasks would you recommend Maxamet be used for?

As for redesigning the knife, Spyderco chose to use the steel in this design. They could have skipped it but they didn't so yes they are on the hook if this steel in this knife is prone to breaking.

But again, what would you recommend Maxamet to be used for? Specifically?

 

[fq55]

Ergh. In my opinion I would say that the op scoring drywall was not the main factor in snapping his blade but probably all stress that came before. The drywall was probably the final nail in the coffin and I don’t think he abused his knife either.

When I first looking into buying a Maxamet Native it sounds like the blade would excel at cutting fibrous softer materials and not anything that would put any level of stress on the blade. It’s simple would not Be a very good edc blade (for me) and when I finally did buy one my concerns were confirmed.

 

[ronnie hood]

Are you implying that the OP and others who have had their knives break are idiots?

I'm an idiot so I brought rex45

 

[SubMicron]

I think the subject of a lifetime no-questions asked replacement on craftsman tools and the dynamics of the retailers that have handled that brand are an apples to oranges comparison.

Craftsman tools are not producing products that are using exotic steels pushed to the absolute limit. Whereas they are producing high gross margin tools where the costs of replacement are averaged into the retail price. If that warranty was not present, I'd expect the tools to be roughly half of their present price or less assuming the retailer wouldn't use the opportunity to increase their own margins.

All costs of a business, any business, including warranty costs, are passed on to the consumer through the price of the product or service.

Spyderco could easily offer lifetime unconditional replacements, they'd just need to charge about double or triple which then would make their products cost prohibitive and less obtainable to most people. They could maintain existing price points but they'd need to significantly dumb down their product offering, discontinuing a lot of the exotic steels, and sticking with plain old S30V like their competitors.

How much does a blade replacement for a $200 Benchmade cost? Isnt it about $25 or $30??? Where's all that cost coming from in their products? The answer is high gross margin... aka significant markup.

 

[Blues]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to be a Crusader here and I don't need you lecturing me on Spyderco's contributions to the industry and community. I've been on the Spyderco train for a loooong time.

Are you implying that the OP and others who have had their knives break are idiots?

If scoring drywall, again, just accepting that was what was going on, is too much for Maxamet and makes one an idiot for attempting it, then what type of cutting tasks would you recommend Maxamet be used for?

As for redesigning the knife, Spyderco chose to use the steel in this design. They could have skipped it but they didn't so yes they are on the hook if this steel in this knife is prone to breaking.

But again, what would you recommend Maxamet to be sued for? Specifically?

I agree with you, Eli. I guess we should limit cutting to telephone book paper with Maxamet...to be on the safe side.

My main issue with the current situation is that the response from Spyderco to the OP is unsatisfactory as it doesn't address any of the underlying issues.

Not a warranty issue? Why? How was that determined if it wasn't presented to R&D to be analyzed?

If not a faulty heat treat or a blade with a stress riser or some other particular issue leading to failure, to what is the failure attributed?

Offering a small additional discount over MAP for another knife when one has skin in the game to the tune of a couple hundred bucks is wholly unsatisfying...especially in light of the answers which have not been provided.

I know Shawn has demonstrated in past videos that his Maxamet blade was up to taking some less than gentle treatment.

So, Spyderco needs to step up to the plate and articulate the reasons why it's not a warranty issue. Then perhaps the matter can be put to bed. Absent that, I don't see how any of us can feel particular confidence in just what the warranty actually does for us.

I have nothing but great respect for Sal and Spyderco, so this isn't personal. I own quite a few of their knives and they are pretty much the only production knives I have purchased in the past several years.

 

[Twindog]

I think you're missing the point(s). Why would a knife maker stack three well-known stress risers on top of one another on a blade that is known to be more brittle and fragile than blades made from most other steels?

How could Spyderco know that the blade didn't have a defect unless it inspected that blade?

What would be helpful is if the OP could post a macro shot of the grain on both broken pieces. An inclusion or pre-existing crack, for example, could show signs of rust or discoloration.

I think the subject of a lifetime no-questions asked replacement on craftsman tools and the dynamics of the retailers that have handled that brand are an apples to oranges comparison.

Craftsman tools are not producing products that are using exotic steels pushed to the absolute limit. Whereas they are producing high gross margin tools where the costs of replacement are averaged into the retail price. If that warranty was not present, I'd expect the tools to be roughly half of their present price or less assuming the retailer wouldn't use the opportunity to increase their own margins.

All costs of a business, any business, including warranty costs, are passed on to the consumer through the price of the product or service.

Spyderco could easily offer lifetime unconditional replacements, they'd just need to charge about double or triple which then would make their products cost prohibitive and less obtainable to most people. They could maintain existing price points but they'd need to significantly dumb down their product offering, discontinuing a lot of the exotic steels, and sticking with plain old S30V like their competitors.

How much does a blade replacement for a $200 Benchmade cost? Isnt it about $25 or $30??? Where's all that cost coming from in their products? The answer is high gross margin... aka significant markup.

 

[SubMicron]

I'm not sure why you feel the need to be a Crusader here and I don't need you lecturing me on Spyderco's contributions to the industry and community. I've been on the Spyderco train for a loooong time.

I do not mean to lecture. In a large part, my posts are tailored to the silent majority who do not post here and only read threads as they come up in Google search results.

Are you implying that the OP and others who have had their knives break are idiots?

No, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify. That remark was not pointed in a specific direction but I'm sure you'll agree that some people out there who break their knives are in fact thoroughbred idiots.

If I am ever calling a specific person an idiot, or anything else, my post will not be unclear on the subject and no one will need to ask if I am or not.

If scoring drywall, again, just accepting that was what was going on, is too much for Maxamet and makes one an idiot for attempting it, then what type of cutting tasks would you recommend Maxamet be used for?

Idiocy is typically in the eyes of the beholder, a matter of perception, and often associated with ignorance, or otherwise lacking necessary information on the subject.

I'm simply asserting that, at least in part, and absent of a highly cautious end user, Maxamet, S110V, and similar steels are poorly suited to medium and high pressure scoring applications, especially where a long draw stroke at full reach is necessary because in that scenario, it's quite difficult to control lateral stress on the blade.

As for redesigning the knife, Spyderco chose to use the steel in this design. They could have skipped it but they didn't so yes they are on the hook if this steel in this knife is prone to breaking.

But again, what would you recommend Maxamet to be sued for? Specifically?

Spyderco has other knife designs in Maxamet. The Native 5 maintains the same stock thickness and sliciness but is a shorter blade thus making it slightly less vulnerable to breaking. The PM2 and Para3 both have thicker stock, and the shorter nature of the Para3 would make it best suited if Maxamet had to be used in lateral stress applications such as scoring.

Maxamet is best suited to slicing applications, especially with things like volumes of cardboard that do not put dynamic lateral forces on a blade like thick rubber does.

Maxamet and S110v are also ideal for the EDC profile of some users.

Ultimately the end user has some responsibility to make sure their high end exotic steel choice matches their usage requirements.

If I took my beloved Manix 2 in CPM-4V, or my Manix XL in CPM-M4 on a week long saltwater fishing trip, should Spyderco replace it because it rusted throughout the blade and pivot area? No of course not. That would be my fault.

 

[jp9mm]

Snapped after 2 weeks of use

Spyderco "We are happy to see that your knife has been put to good use, buy another "

 

[SubMicron]

I think you're missing the point(s). Why would a knife maker stack three well-known stress risers on top of one another on a blade that is known to be more brittle and fragile than blades made from most other steels?

How could Spyderco know that the blade didn't have a defect unless it inspected that blade?

What would be helpful is if the OP could post a macro shot of the grain on both broken pieces. An inclusion or pre-existing crack, for example, could show signs of rust or discoloration.

With the bulk of the other steel options for the Manix 2, the stress risers being discussed are a moot point because those steels, realistically, arent going to break.

There are no doubt very specific reasons that those points on the knife exist the way that they do and they are no problem with any normal steel.

This is simply a case where Spyderco has made existing blade/knife designs also available in specialty steels, each with their own weak points, such as strength and corrosion resistance.

Maxamet is not a balanced steel. People break it while sharpening with too much pressure. Others snap the whole edge off on the stones in a big thick wire.

Maxamet is wear resistance to the max while sacrificing nearly everything else.

Wear resistance = abrasion resistance balanced with apex strength versus compressive forces.

Lateral side to side pressure is quite literally the Achilles heel for Maxamet.

 

[Blues]

The military has 90-Day Wonders...and we have SubMicron who has come here to educate us all.

Just imagine what he'll have to share after another few months.

 

[Twindog]

Thanks for the reply, but I don't see how you answered either of my questions.

Why put a delicate, brittle steel on a design platform that is inherently weak? You did say that "there are no doubt very specific reasons" for that decision, but that doesn't answer the question.

The other question: How does Spyderco know the blade isn't defective without examining it?

With the bulk of the other steel options for the Manix 2, the stress risers being discussed are a moot point because those steels, realistically, arent going to break.

There are no doubt very specific reasons that those points on the knife exist the way that they do and they are no problem with any normal steel.

This is simply a case where Spyderco has made existing blade/knife designs also available in specialty steels, each with their own weak points, such as strength and corrosion resistance.

Maxamet is not a balanced steel. People break it while sharpening with too much pressure. Others snap the whole edge off on the stones in a big thick wire.

Maxamet is wear resistance to the max while sacrificing nearly everything else.

Wear resistance = abrasion resistance balanced with apex strength versus compressive forces.

Lateral side to side pressure is quite literally the Achilles heel for Maxamet.

 

[SubMicron]

My main issue with the current situation is that the response from Spyderco to the OP is unsatisfactory as it doesn't address any of the underlying issues.

I agree, generally, with the bulk of your post which is why I extracted this one piece.

I'll just ask: How then is Spyderco supposed to make it clear that they do not have an unconditional blade/knife replacement program?

Someone, somewhere, eventually has to be told "No"... Who better than the one who makes a very public example of his situation BEFORE Spyderco has the opportunity to address it?

 

[SubMicron]

Thanks for the reply, but I don't see how you answered either of my questions.

My bad.

Why put a delicate, brittle steel on a design platform that is inherently weak? You did say that "there are no doubt very specific reasons" for that decision, but that doesn't answer the question.

Because people want to buy it and the strength is sufficient for how they'll use it.

The other question: How does Spyderco know the blade isn't defective without examining it?

Because the OP posted in the Spyderco subform and said he was using it to score drywall.

 

[SubMicron]

Afk for 4 hours.

I fully understand that I've unintentially poked some of you in the eye, figuratively.

I have respect for all of you. I truly do, and I'm happy to continue this debate.

 

[Blues]

I agree, generally, with the bulk of your post which is why I extracted this one piece.

I'll just ask: How then is Spyderco supposed to make it clear that they do not have an unconditional blade/knife replacement program?

Someone, somewhere, eventually has to be told "No"... Who better than the one who makes a very public example of his situation BEFORE Spyderco has the opportunity to address it?

Not having an unconditional warranty in no way lets them off the hook for making a finding and pronouncement in the absence of investigation.

I was in federal law enforcement for 20 plus years. When I brought a matter to the U.S. Attorney, and before the court, I had evidence to support my conclusions. Those were presented to a jury and they rendered verdicts. (All guilty, in my case.)

Facts matter. Evidence matters. A clear and concise response matters. If fault is found with the OP and is justified by the facts, so be it and drive on. If fault exists elsewhere...then the proper steps should be taken accordingly.

Further, if a member here were to be summarily punished by Spyderco or other company for bringing an honest post before our community for discussion, I would recommend that that company was not a good fit for our forums and did not "do the right thing even when no one was looking". But, I don't believe that to be the case here. I think it was just a poor example of customer service in this instance.