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I'm not Cliff, but I'm often called dumb and, yes, 13C26, at a razor-blade hardness range of RC59.5-RC61 is a tougher, harder, finer grained steel than 440A (which is good for both polished and toothy edges).
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My new Manix, review and observations
- Thread starter gunmike1
- Start date
I'm not Cliff, but I'm often called dumb and, yes, 13C26, at a razor-blade hardness range of RC59.5-RC61 is a tougher, harder, finer grained steel than 440A (which is good for both polished and toothy edges).
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No, I don't want you to finance my knife hobby, and if you took it that way you are way too literal in your readings of things. You gave a sarcastic, baiting "apology" , or at least it seemed that way, and I was in a bad mood at the time. I apologize for being pissy.
I think I will test my ZDP Horn (I'm 90% sure I will right now), and I will talk to Cliff, and if he gives the OK I will do the test on the U2 also, probably at a 20 degree microbevel, but only if my Horn doesn't have a really bad experience, even if he does give the OK. He may well call me an idiot and revoke my priveleges with the U2 for asking, but we'll see. Considering the relatively brittle steels and the fact that cutting .032" metal isn't really in the scope of work I pictured for the knives, it seems to me like chopping a cinder block with a ZDP Endura, just way out of the scope of work for the knife and asking for trouble. Why don't you e mail me your address, and I will send you a piece of the twist tie in the mail and lets see how your Caly Jr. does, too. I would be interesting to see the difference in performance of VG-10, ZDP, and SGPS at thin angles. Test to consist of laying the tie flat on a cutting board, then push cutting straight through. Hopefully I can get my sharpness levels up again now that my fingers are a little better, I know I will need it and good control to not twist a chunk out of the edge.
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INFI will laugh it's ass off at that twist tie, I'm guessing!
Cliff Stamp
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It has to be, the compressional strength is way higher as the knife is harder than the wire.
This doesn't hold in general, just with most north american knives and specifically most current north american knives.
This is just due to a lack of critical thinking and a promotion of acceptance on faith.
Yup, and the vast majority of popular "facts" are of similar connection to reality.
As a simple comparison, 440B and 12C27M are both on the same tie line and thus offer the same hardening responce (about 60 HRC max) and corrosion resistance. The difference is that 440B has a much greater fraction of chromium carbides and thus offers more wear resistance but lower edge stability.
Thus in thick edges you pick 440B and for thin edges you pick 12C27M. More coarse edges would also favor 440B and prying/impacts would favor the 12C27M steel. So in short, if you are grinding very thick and obtuse edges you would look at the 440 series steels not the Sandvik stainless because they are optomized for a completely different geometry.
As I have noted before, this already happened, people used AEB-l (13C26) in thick edges knives, it was compared to the high carbon stainless, quickly regarded as low end (which it is if you use it like that) and ended up in every FAQ as an entry level "beater" steel. In reality this isn't close to its performance, but if you use a greyhound as a sled dog then bad things are going to happen and it for sure isn't the dogs fault.
If you want to try to split a piece of wood by hitting the U2 with a sledgehammer, dig a hole in concrete, fight off invading ninjas, etc., then go ahead, the outcome of some events should be obvious but if you want to make sure and quantify them then by all means indulge your curiousity. I would suggest that you do these kind of things last and not let your wife know you are doing them or the men in white coats might make a visit. If in general you are interesting in done to-failure tests on knives but have monetary restrictions then drop me an email with the types of knives you are interested in.
-Cliff
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Yes, and in considering this, IMO the real advantage of wire cutters mentioned previously lies in the fact that the two cutting edges being directly opposite radically reduces lateral stress; plus it also reduces binding such as you'd have cutting with a single blade on a flat surface, further explaining the relative efficiency achieved even with the obtuse edge of your typical wire cutters.
Interestingly my experience with cutting wires hasn't found hardness to be the big problem - e.g. steel coat hanger vs. copper Romex - again just the lateral stress from the nature of the cutting and inability to control the wire itself and forces on the edge. I suspect accidental contact with harder pieces of steel while cutting could in many instances actually spare a fine edge from serious damage when compared to a soft wire tie, since the cutting depth would be less for a given amount of force being used.
Ergo I'm not sure it's fair to place too much weight on this kind of chipping/damage. Just trying to control lateral stress from test to test and knife to knife when cutting wire is a problem .... and ultimately perhaps cutting wire shouldn't be considered in the scope of use for a knife that has an edge even somewhat optimized for most other types of cutting.
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OK, you have properly scolded me not to do an idiotic thing with the knives, as like I said for several posts, it is pretty obvious that is not what the knife was designed for, and the outcome can be easily deduced. ZDP & SGPS are not INFI, and as such shouldn't be used similarly. Sometimes my testosterone levels overcome my brainpower and I can be baited into doing idiotic things. Plus, my wife really WOULD call the men in white coats, and rightfully so, if I allowed my brainfart to continue. Thanks for pulling my head out of my butt for me. There is a lot more work, especially after your Jess Horn is thinned out, to be done testing those knives within their scope of work rather than serrating them out of idiocy. Although I do see that db has a brand new Jess Horn ZDP in another thread, so maybe we can go ahead with the reprofiled vs. stock Jess Horn comparison, as he is so interested in how thin, brittle knives handle metal cutting. More data points, right db?
Just Kidding. I think this issue is at rest now, especially since db said he is done with this thread now.Either way, I think I will just leave last night's idiotic episode behind me and concentrate on testing the Horn and U2 (just like I started this thread on, right! Oh wait, that was my Manix that I started this thread on) more within their scope of work, though I think I will have to thin the meadowlark out slightly more with the D8XX (to remove the existing microbevel), and put on a 20 degree micro and see how it does. Considering the replacement cost and availability of that one compared to the ZDP Jess Horn I think it would be better to represent the thin knife performance on the twist tie. Again, the results are easily deduced, but at least that steel should be tougher than the other 2, and that is much more of a disposable knife than the other 2. There should also be enough good edge left to test it out on digging out roots, ect., so it won't be the end of the world with chip.
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Agreed 100%. I have wire cutters and dog nail trimmers to use as wire cutters, and in the future will try to keep my head out of my butt with things like that twist tie (except for the test I will run on the Meadowlark). That is why I was quick to point out it was my fault, not the Manix's, for the chipping, as I don't see cutting thick wire as being in it's scope of work. Speaker wire, though, didn't cause any issues when I had it flat on the cutting board and pushed stright through it. Still, I usually have my wire cutter/stripper combo on me when I am working with speaker wire, so I probably won't be using my knife for the much, either.
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Well, IMO there's no "fault" in what happened, nor any head-in-butt. I don't feel you were using your Manix recklessly at all when that happened ... just an unlikely and unexpected occurrence. In fact I'd say the same of the cuts you received, really just a case of "shit happens."
By posting the story and pics here you've potentially turned the experience into something valuable for a lot of people. It stimulated some good discussion, and serves to remind all of us to be careful. I'd say your Manix has already provided a lot of value, maybe just not the kind you were expecting.
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Thanks for the words. I am just glad the knife didn't chip out at the first sign of light duty cutting, as my Native did. The whole point of posting the review and "testing" was to share my experiences and impressions, and hopefully learn something and stimulate discussion. Both the knife chipping and finger cutting fit into the reminder categories of pay attention when using your knives. I could have been shy about mentioning those things and posting them, as especially the fingers are embarassing (violating knife safety 101 is never easy to admit to), but like you said I saw the potential of helping others learn from my experience.
Cliff Stamp
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Yes, the lateral loading is minimized by geometry concerns. Hacksaw blades are similar and if you soften them by drawing the temper to make them "tougher" the teeth actually break easier in use. This is a point that is constantly missed on Bladeforums. If a knife is chipping when you are cutting with it then making it softer is only going to make it WORSE, assuming of course you have not mangled the heat treatment and are correcting blown grain, carbide precipitation. There is a huge difference in the properties needed to cut vs to chop something because the speed of loading is very different and thus moves from strength to toughness.
That was a nice piece of deduction. You can see this for example directly if you take a fairly brittle machete (Ontario) and chop it into concrete, it just suffers minor impaction/deformation, but chop it through a hardwood branch and it can take a piece of the edge out the size of a quarter. Again it comes down to the fact that lateral strength is very low and that is the main concern when minimizing damage. Direct compressional failure is very rare because knives are so hard, even the "soft" ones.
All data says something, figuring out what is the difficult part. The trivial deduction that a knife "sucks" in general because it does poorly at a task is fairly common but not really sensible. First it needs to be considered is that task relevant, then are the conditions of that task similar to other more relevant tasks, lastly, are the properties goverened by that task actually relevant. Each one of these deductions requires more knowledge/experience.
For example, even if you don't cut wires and such on a regular basis, it may be that you hit staples on occasion and thus are interested in the results. Maybe you don't do any of that with that knife in particular but are interested in another knife of that steel which would have that ability or maybe you are just interested in figuring out what properties of steels govern such performance and thus can look at other steels to find more suitable materials.
I wasn't clear, or maybe your mood was effected by something, the above was meant to be a joke. Nothing that you do with the knives would bother me and quite frankly I would support curiosity of any level. I was just noting that some of the work has fairly obvious results which would prevent other work and that if you do investigate them make sure it is in private or those around you might tend to think you are spending too much time in poorly ventilated areas.
I think it is sensible given the size and nature of the knife. A lot of people would expect the knife to handle that work but Spyderco has focused the performance elsewhere and that is fine. Essentially all that is being done is clearly defining the scope of work. You need to be careful not to be so restricted and realize that not everything which is obvious to you would be obvious to everyone else. You could look at a knife with a 12 degree bevel and know the scope of work, but if the knife had a 0.185" spine then a lot of people may think differently.
-Cliff
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Point taken. There is definately more work I would like to try with the U2 before I try things that are likely to seriously damage it, especially once the Horn is thinned out to a similar profile. I really doubt chopping, batonning, and prying are the future of either, at least from me. I'm just a squeamish soul when it somes to battering poor little lightweight things. As you say those results would be obvious, and in my mind a waste of time, though I'm sure it would make for good pictures and video.
As to the other point, many people think I spend too much time in a poorly ventilated room, already. More reason to do some things in private as the men in white coats would surely be on thier way if anyone around me thought I was more off than usual, and it is hard to sharpen knives in a straight jacket in padded rooms where sharp objects are not allowed. Then I REALLY would go crazy.
Cliff Stamp
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Generally you start off light and work up, figuring out the exact order takes a little while and there are often surprises. One thing you want to be careful of is not to completely abandon the obvious as you learn unless of course you want to have no appeal aside from the experts.
-Cliff
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Ok, now I have tested Sodak's Busse in INFI on the twist ties I was babbling about. Even the INFI chipped on those little twist ties! Barely visible by eye, but easily seen under magnification. It did much better than the Manix, Endura, or CRKT (a LOT better), but it still chipped. Under 100X they are fairly large chips, and by the naked eye you can see them if you look close. I used a wooden cutting board and push cut straight down into it. That wasn't enough to finish the cut so I tried rocking back and forth while trying not to laterally load the edge, but it ended up taking a few slices to get all the way through. Even turning it over and trying to pushcut it again before slicing didn't help much. I did this a few times, in different parts of the blade, with similar results. My conclusions are as follows:
1. My technique still sucks.
2. I need a harder cutting surface, as I think the twist tie just wanted to sink into the cutting board instead of letting the knife cut right through it (I know you mentioned mild steel before Cliff, looks like I should have listened to that, but I didn't have any handy). Actually, I know it was sinking into the cutting board, as you could see a little denting in the wood. Maybe I can use a oven tray (or whatever the hell they are called) that is metal when my wife isn't paying attention and that would work better?
3. I should try chopping it with a hard wood background, but my daughter was sleeping at the time so that will have to wait.
4. I'm glad I didn't use the Jess Horn or U2 for this purpose, as they may be a mess right now, as obviously my technique still sucks.
5. I really can't blame my Manix for chipping on this, as I used MUCH worse technique when I chipped it and the others out.
6. Sodak, the men in white coats should pay you a visit for loaning me your knives!
The chips are small enough that with me not knowing how to use macro on my camera I would never get a good photo. I need Kel aa's skills so I could show these to you, but it isn't happening. The chips will easily sharpen out, so there are no worries there. Anyway, the INFI's chips are so much smaller than the other's there really isn't a comparison, but it did chip, and using much better (though still crappy, apparently) technique.
Mike
1. My technique still sucks.
2. I need a harder cutting surface, as I think the twist tie just wanted to sink into the cutting board instead of letting the knife cut right through it (I know you mentioned mild steel before Cliff, looks like I should have listened to that, but I didn't have any handy). Actually, I know it was sinking into the cutting board, as you could see a little denting in the wood. Maybe I can use a oven tray (or whatever the hell they are called) that is metal when my wife isn't paying attention and that would work better?
3. I should try chopping it with a hard wood background, but my daughter was sleeping at the time so that will have to wait.
4. I'm glad I didn't use the Jess Horn or U2 for this purpose, as they may be a mess right now, as obviously my technique still sucks.
5. I really can't blame my Manix for chipping on this, as I used MUCH worse technique when I chipped it and the others out.
6. Sodak, the men in white coats should pay you a visit for loaning me your knives!
The chips are small enough that with me not knowing how to use macro on my camera I would never get a good photo. I need Kel aa's skills so I could show these to you, but it isn't happening. The chips will easily sharpen out, so there are no worries there. Anyway, the INFI's chips are so much smaller than the other's there really isn't a comparison, but it did chip, and using much better (though still crappy, apparently) technique.
Mike
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Yeah, Thom can throw a nice edge on a blade, that is for sure.
Cliff Stamp
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Any deformation or just direct fracture.
That is the major problem, the cutting surface needs to be harder than the material being cut. You will of course get some minor blunting from the direct impact off of the cutting board, but this will be minor in depth compared to the isolated damage from the actual cutting.
-Cliff
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Some deformation along the edge where I sliced it, but several fractures, with the biggest ones at the point where I started the push cuts. Maybe I rolled the edge a little and then chipped it when I sliced? I should have had my scope with me and checked the edge along every part of the test, but I just did the cuts until I got all the way through, and noticed a couple chips when I looked closely, then I used my lighted scope afterwards. I also probably should have sharpened the knife first and noted the edge condition under magnification, but I just wanted to do a quick test and see what happened.
This test is what helped me to figure that out. I really feel it wouldn't have chipped nearly as bad (maybe micro, not visible to the eye) if I used a very hard cutting surface, like metal. I would definately expect blunting, but minimizing the large chips would be my main concern here.
Either way, tomorrow morning my wife has wrist surgery so it will be a while before I get to do a retest, or much of anything besides waiting on her hand and foot while chasing around a 28 month old daughter who is constantly trying to pull off stunts worthy of the Jackass series. Unfortunately she doesn't have an off switch and suffers from a lack of fear. The week should be interesting.
Again, many thanks to Thom for helping me out in my gimpy times by reprofiling my Manix and G-10 Cara Cara for me and putting some really nice edges on the knives, to boot. He even picked up the shipping costs, he sent my shipping money I sent with the knives back to me. He's a great guy, and has been teaching me a lot about hones and techniques. Also, many thanks to Sodak for lending me his herd of knives to play with, that was very generous and trusting of him, and I otherwise wouldn't have got to play with such nice hardware. Another great guy and great source of knowledge.
Luckily, my fingers are healing to the point where I can lean into the stone when I reprofile now, but knife sharpening and testing will be on the back burner for a while until my wifey gets better.
Mike
Cliff Stamp
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The damage will look different generally, is it jagged or circular, if you look at the edge straight on, is it well aligned or bent
Yeah, that is the part which surprises a lot of people.
-Cliff