My new small Apogee...

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It's great to see that a discerning customer and a concerned maker can work out perceived problems in such a agreeable way.

Beautiful knives. Interesting review by Jackyl.

If anyone can please him it looks as if Darrell will.

A great example of why Bladeforums is a fine place to visit.

[This message has been edited by ThomM (edited 01 December 1999).]
 
Mr. Ralph, according to you..."As stated before I am only human NOT A MACHINE. These knives are hand made." I think that is a poor excuse for sloppy work. Come on, the blade on the Apogee I got makes contact with the rear spacer. I'm sorry but that is just unacceptable. The grind lines on the handle are uneven as well. The anodized handles look cheap. The blade was not even sharp. The file work done on top of the blade does no give enough support for the thumb. It's barely effective. The pictures I've seen of the Apogee are very misleading. I hope you take my critism seriously and improve the Apogee. Good Day.
 
I bought the Apogee due to the great reviews it got from others. I'm surprised that those people are that impressed with the Apogee. Boy was I shocked when I first opened the Apogee. I won't even bother comparing the Apogee to the Sebenza. As far as I'm concerned, the Apogee does not even come close.

[This message has been edited by KAJNIN (edited 01 December 1999).]
 
First of all, "complaint" posts do not belong in this forum. If the knife was purchased new from a dealer, you can return it for a refund or you can learn some manners and work things out directly with the maker.

I own a plain large Sebenza and a medium Apogee. As Jackyl initially stated, the similarity is in the lock, it really ends there. I love my Sebenza, but the one thing I like least about it is the grip; even with the blasted ti, I still like a rougher, more textured surface. The Apogee is one of the most ergonomic handles available and the crosshatch is brilliant-it is a beautiful design that is at the same time very utilitarian and provides an excellent grip.

The Sebenzas drop point is a little more utilitarian, but Darrel's recurve and blade grinds are just awesome. The sebenza has thicker handle slabs, which I like, but I still prefer the feel of the Apogee.

Bottom line: I will always have at least one of each in my collection.

Cappy
 
Excuse me Cappy? Isn't this the REVIEW section!?! I tell it like it is. I hold back nothing. Hell, the guy makes a cheap Sebenza clone and expects people to pay $450 for it. It's a rip off. If you look at the Apogee closely, the basic design came from the Sebenza. And for the Apogee handle? That came from the Spyderco Military. The Apogee is not orignal. It's a poor imitation of other knives. If you don't like what I have to say, don't read it.

[This message has been edited by KAJNIN (edited 01 December 1999).]
 
Just what other knife does the Apogee "imitate"? Except for the style of lock, it doesn't come close to resembling any other knife I know. If the lock is the only thing that makes the knife an "imitation", I suppose you think all liner locks are "poor imitations" of Walker's knives.

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Kelly

SenatorsPlace.com
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice


 
A knock off Sebenza? I don't think so. Like the Military? Hell no! The Apogee is an AWESOME design. If things work out like I hope they will, this will be one hell of a knife. Lord knows I'm one of the most picky members around here.
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Just ask stjames, The4th., Johnyquest, COPFISH, and many of the others.
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If Darrel can get me to hang on to this puppy, ( ...and he's doin real good job so far, depending on the turn around time
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) he'll be the first of many! -AR

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- AKTI Member ID# A000322

- Intelligent men, unfortunately, learn from fools, more often than fools learn from intelligent men.


 
Hmm. I have a small Apogee. Its one of my favorite carries. I don't see any of the problems in mine that some folks have referred to. I chose to stick with the narrow blade rather than the newer wider blade. Its true the clip is very tight and can shred pocket edges. But I carry mine usually loose in my pocket - I'm not worried about it getting damaged and it is light enough to be no bother. Finally, mine is very sharp out of the box - I have had friends cut themselves accidentally on it because they did not realize how sharp it is. And of course 420V is an excellent steel. I suppose it is true that if you are punching out carbon copies of the same knife design then machine tools can guarantee an accuracy of reproduction that handwork can't replicate. But you lose something as well. Anyway, I find it an excellent and well made knife, that isn't a copy of any one else's. Like all things, these are personal decisions - some people like 'vettes, others like Porsches.

Canuck

BTW, I can understand someone presenting a negative review, if thats how they see it. But there is no need to do so in a rude way.
 
Hey Kajnin:

I don't like what you have to saw. Unfortunately I finished reading your last post before I completed the last sentence about not reading it if I didn't like it.

The Apogee a cheap rip off? Hummn? I suppose it would also be fair to say that any knife that folds and locks is a cheap ripoff of the Buck 110?

I do recall Darrel saying he is only human and he will do whatever he needs to correct the problem. If this is not acceptable to you and you want to contiunue bashing a great knife maker then I guess there is nothing that is going to make you happy.

Try and lighten up
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I think it is unnecessary to lambaste knifemakers on these forums. These men are professionals who devote most of their conscious hours to the art of hand crafting knives - a fairly noble endeavour. If one happens to be unsatisfied with a maker's work, talk to the maker himself in private or just sell/return the knife and buy other makers' work.

I met Darrel and purchased one of his knives (Scorpion) at the NYC Custom Show. The folder is absolutely one of the best. And apparently, my version is just a "laymen's" model; his custom work and damascus patterns have the reputation of being the highest quality. He is willing to work with his clients and it seems to me that customer satisfaction is one of his higher priorities. If one experiences any problems with his work, contact him....he's a nice guy...a professional knife maker. I'm sure he'll be more than receptive to quality control problems.

Knifemakers/artists such as Darrel Ralph are far more deserving than the criticisms I have read in this thread.

 
I simply like the design of the Apogee; it incorporates many elements that I look for in a folder and as well as a unique artistic styling. I have fairly early models of the “plain Jane” variety with hand rubbed 420V blades and a finish very similar to the image above. Really beautiful grinds, and Darryl is a great to work with. I’m glad to hear he will be helping in your quest for that “perfect daily carry”.

When you buy a knife sight unseen, a clip complaint or any other is legitimate reason to return it. If you just don't like the way it looks and feels after being attracted to a picture, return it. This is one of the oldest guarantees in mail order, and one of the things that has kept these companies in business since the days when Sears & Roebuck shipped goods across the continent by stage.

I only have one blade ground by Allen, a Synergy Sweptpoint (#20), and it has a fairly thin edge, but by no means fragile. It is a very nice piece as well, and incorporates some of my other favorite aspects of construction; precision fit and finish, beyond what a “mere” human can accomplish, and a hand ground blade by a talented artist. The best of both worlds.


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James Segura
San Francisco, CA


 
I owned a medium Apogee w/ satin blade for a short while. It was a beautiful and well crafted knife. It is nice knowing that Darrel would have fixed any problems I had with that piece. Traded it to someone who needed it more than I did. IMHO the artistic flair which Darrel brings to his work and the hand craftmanship are two elements which the Sebenza lacks. I am also the very happy owner of two large Sebenzas...

I believe that negative comments on knives DEFINITELY belong in the knife review section. They should, however, be posed in a constructive, polite manner. This information could be very valuable to those of us considering a knife. In this case Darrel's reply to these concerns and willingness to address those is important information also.

I think that once our review, negative or positive, is posed in an objective manner, and we have personal issues to resolve with a maker in reference to a knife we own, that those issues should be resolved via private email. Should this not work then the Good, Bad & Ugly Forum exists for this type of discussion.

My .02,

Waldo

 
KANJIN
Well I feel you love your Sebenza and sir they are very nice knives.

As for the frame locking type knife. This design is much older than Chris Reeve knife company. Mel Pardue made these type of knives far before Chris thought of making them. Other Makers MISSION KNIVES and ALLEN E. Have been using this design for years. As for the lock design comming from the sebenza well I have to admit it did come from the sebenza along with Mission Knives. I feel it is a better lock then a thin liner lock .. AS for the other parts of MY design I think YOU are on drugs.

As for the Spydy Military GET A LIFE NO WAY
I was one of the First people in the modern knife industry to use bg42, cpm 440v and cpm 420v. My handle designs and recurve designed blades go back 13 years. They come from the 10th century... Just updating you as to the state of the union in the knife industry!

As for integral side slab knives I have been making them for 13 years . I have made only a VERY few (4) stacked liner locking type knives.

So my MO for 13 years has been recurve blades , integral side plates (strongest knife available)..WOW I ripped someone off????? I dont think so.. I feel its just the opposite
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AS for the sebnenza ...you are the one comparing my product to the sebenza. I dont. I will admit in public that I cannot make a knife, mechanism wise as good as the Sebenza.
I can........ add life , best materials available , better warranty, personal attention to clients, ergonomic handle design and style though!

As I said I am a knife maker who makes knives BY HAND .
I always take care of my clients and have a great time doing it.

One other thing. The gripper grooves in the Apogee blade were made for Folks who USE the knife. The sharp style grippers tend to cut your thumb in hard use . I was asked by folks I trust to test my pre production knives to build a gripper that when used would grip and NOT cut your thumb.
I understand your thoughts here about the gripper grooves. I feel advanced design takes a while to catch on in the industry. It also requires extra hand work.

Have a great day.
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Web Site At www.infinet.com/~browzer/bldesmth.html
Take a look!!!


[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 02 December 1999).]

[This message has been edited by Darrel Ralph (edited 02 December 1999).]
 
Darrel, correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that Pat Crawford was making slab-locks or integral locks or whatever you want to call them around 1970 or so.

As for the Sebenza / Apogee debate, I like both, but I carry an Apogee. This is not a knock on Reeve knives they are exellent both his sebenza's and his one piece fixed blades.
There is a difference in the directions that Darrel and Chris took in there knifemaking, neither is wrong and I won't debate the merits of one or the other.

In regards to the Apogee that was recieved in an unacceptable condition to it's purchaser, if you haven't given the maker a chance to make good on the piece then you don't deserve to have it. Are you perfect? In every way and every day? In whatever it is that you do for a living do you make everyone you have contact with happy with your work all the time? If this seems harsh I'm sorry, but perhaps you should look at what it means to work with a custom maker, not everything is perfect, Part of the process is the working out of issues with the maker. I know that Darrel has taken critizism from me about certain things about the apogee (I have a very early model #2, which is the 3rd he made I believe [a prototype then #1 and then mine])and he's fine tuned it from there. And yes it does destroy the edge of my jeans pockets, but I destroy jeans at a fairly fast rate as well so I don't worry about it. A tight clip will wear in with time and use. I stiff or even impossible opening is better then an easy closing (right on the fingers). This too will wear in. If the aesthetics of the knife itself don't please you well whats the big deal? everyone has ther own taste and opinions get something you like. Even the car lemon law requires that you return the malfunctioning vehicle to the dealer 3 times before it can even go into effect, and from the text of this thread you haven't even given Darrel one chance. And a new car even a hundyai cost thousands of dollars.

rant off

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~ JerryO ~

Cogito Cogito Ergo Cogito Sum


 
Jackyl, I hope you hate the knife! As a matter of fact, Darryl, just sent it to me when you are done with it. I will treat it right. Jackyl, I will send you something for it... how about two paki blades, a SAK and a chalupa!
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"Hi, I'm Fish, and I'm a Sebenzaholic..."
copfish@aol.com

 
Are you referring to me Jerry? -AR

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- AKTI Member ID# A000322

- Intelligent men, unfortunately, learn from fools, more often than fools learn from intelligent men.


 
Hehehe...funny Fish, funny.
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-AR

------------------
- AKTI Member ID# A000322

- Intelligent men, unfortunately, learn from fools, more often than fools learn from intelligent men.


 
Ah, KAJNIN, making friends again...

While disparaging a Sebenza or a Mad Dog might produce an angry mob of faithful followers, putting down Darrel Ralph's craftsmanship will simply produce howls of laughter.

You don't want to work with one of the pre-eminent names in high-art custom knifemaking to modify your new knife to your precise specifications, but would rather immediately return it? Again - laughable, if not just plain sad.

JerryO is right. You don't deserve the knife. Your comments here, while intended to "expose" the Apogee, have only exposed you as a habitual malcontent, who knows little about, and cares even less for the art.

Thank you for providing your review. I'll consider the source.
 
Why the hell would I spend so much money on a knife and still spend even more money just to get it right? That is stupid. You can praise Darrel Ralph all you want. The first impression is the most important one. And the impression I got from the Apogee I got was that Darrell Ralph lousy knife maker. If the Apogees are in fact hand made, Mr. Ralph should I've seen the problems with the one I got. But no, he got lazy and just let it go out for sale. What does that say about a knife maker? It says that he cares more about quantity rather than quality. What is up with the pictures of the Apogees on line? The Apogee I got looked nothing like them. I call that false advertising.

[This message has been edited by KAJNIN (edited 02 December 1999).]
 
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