New 2022 CRKT... Really?!?

[Chronovore]

Of course you are right about the steels used by CRKT and the Chinese brands, but again - everything below D2 in the Chinese knives is nothing so much better than the 13Mov used by CRKT. They might be good, but nothing exceptional or close to S30V for example, that goes in the higher end of the Chinese knives and they are much more expensive than the higher end of CRKT ( in question)
I'm also following Stassa 73, his tests are fine but I much prefer more scientific approach. They are good for those steels but for something at the higher end, I wouldn't look at the Tube for "facts"... I would look at Larrin's info and will compare it with my own experience with particular steel, this is the only correct comparing in my case.

Steel performance really does matter and the "everything below D2" can be deceptive. While D2 on a Benchmade or a custom knife can have great edge retention, that usually isn't true of a lot of the Chinese D2 used in budget knives. While the worst Chinese D2 tends to be noticeably better than the best 8Cr13Mov, it might not out-cut 14C28N, 9Cr18Mov, or other budget steels that people view as "below D2".

This is where I've taken issue with Larrin's recent ratings. For instance, he rates 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, Nitro-V, and LC200N as equal. While that might be true for his ideal heat treatment in the specific testing environment of CATRA, that is generally not true of actual production knives with their real-world heat treatments under a variety of normal use conditions. We can see similar issues with 440A being rated higher than any of those steels, VG-10 being rated higher than BD1N, or the scale of difference between any of these steels and say, D2.

Here are a couple of videos from that tester I recommended. I described his particular test conditions previously. His results are statistically repeatable and largely in line with my own experiences. Notice that a few of the knives here are loaners from me. My Naja in 9Cr18Mov at 60HRC showed edge retention on par with the low end of various "super steels".

The second video discusses the poor performance of several knives in Chinese D2.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

Yes, it can be deceptive, I agree. But I'm sure you remember our previous conversation - I did use low end steels for years. I don't really care right now or I'm interested of anything below the D2 steel...
That's why I don't want to continue this conversation - I don't have the interest or desire to get educated of something I lost track long time ago, simply because would never use it again in my line of work...
I will definitely look at the tests because as you said - they still carry some info, reference material or such, I think actually I saw recently test about the Imperium I got and also,
I took some pictures of the edge and the micro bevel, because you asked me about my experience with the steel.
I'll post those when I dig them out, it was a week or so ago, sorry didn't answer right away...

 

[Chronovore]

Yes, it can be deceptive, I agree. But I'm sure you remember our previous conversation - I did use low end steels for years. I don't really care right now or I'm interested of anything below the D2 steel...
That's why I don't want to continue this conversation - I don't have the interest or desire to get educated of something I lost track long time ago, simply because would never use it again in my line of work...
I will definitely look at the tests because as you said - they still carry some info, reference material or such, I think actually I saw recently test about the Imperium I got and also,
I took some pictures of the edge and the micro bevel, because you asked me about my experience with the steel.
I'll post those when I dig them out, it was a week or so ago, sorry didn't answer right away...

If I recall correctly, your knives get harder use and you've been well-served by steels like M4 and S90V. From that perspective and being used to spending more anyway, an exciting performer on this tier might not make it into the arena of choice for you in the first place. I'm glad to hear that the Imperium did. I haven't seen any testing on Nitro-V. My only knife in Nitro-V is the Bo, which is brand new and probably destined for light use.

This whole thread comes down to tiers. Like I said, I might be very interested in some of these knives if they actually made it into the arena of choice for me. They don't. The main bullet point is that they are priced the same as a whole bunch that do. Those other knives are now the norm for this price tier. So by using materials that are now woefully obsolete in this tier--materials that are in the same performance tier as those populating a much lower price tier--any amount of innovation or novel design concepts here are totally wasted for me.

I do hope you enjoy those videos. Beyond general information, I thought it might be interesting to compare them. In one, you see D2 consistently punching below its expected performance tier. In the other, you see a "sub D2" steel with an average heat treatment hitting the same performance ballpark, followed the same "sub D2" steel with a good heat treatment punching way above. Tying back to the main topic, this whole comparison is taking place at or above the maximum performance level of these CRKT knives while costing in some cases half or less (with at least as good fit, finish, or action).

 

[xKaidoh]

I'm actually pretty excited about some of these releases from CRKT. While the Kit Carson designs indeed seem to be priced "liberally" (which has always been the case), the rest of the new offerings seem relatively in line with the rest of the industry when compared with US companies, with Kershaw being the exception. But I imagine CRKTs costs are higher due to them producing designs from external sources rather than in-house designs, I would have to think they are paying a certain amount of royalties to the designers. They are certainly comparable to Spyderco's budget line.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Steel performance really does matter and the "everything below D2" can be deceptive. While D2 on a Benchmade or a custom knife can have great edge retention, that usually isn't true of a lot of the Chinese D2 used in budget knives. While the worst Chinese D2 tends to be noticeably better than the best 8Cr13Mov, it might not out-cut 14C28N, 9Cr18Mov, or other budget steels that people view as "below D2".

This is where I've taken issue with Larrin's recent ratings. For instance, he rates 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, Nitro-V, and LC200N as equal. While that might be true for his ideal heat treatment in the specific testing environment of CATRA, that is generally not true of actual production knives with their real-world heat treatments under a variety of normal use conditions. We can see similar issues with 440A being rated higher than any of those steels, VG-10 being rated higher than BD1N, or the scale of difference between any of these steels and say, D2.

Here are a couple of videos from that tester I recommended. I described his particular test conditions previously. His results are statistically repeatable and largely in line with my own experiences. Notice that a few of the knives here are loaners from me. My Naja in 9Cr18Mov at 60HRC showed edge retention on par with the low end of various "super steels".

The second video discusses the poor performance of several knives in Chinese D2.

Bluntly, if you take issue with Larrin's ranking and testing because of that, you have a very poor understanding of how scientific testing needs to be performed. He's isolating as many variables as possible to test the performance of the steel itself.

 

[Chronovore]

Bluntly, if you take issue with Larrin's ranking and testing because of that, you have a very poor understanding of how scientific testing needs to be performed. He's isolating as many variables as possible to test the performance of the steel itself.

While I'm sure you didn't know that I've both done and taught actual science IRL, you could have read what I've actually said on this particular issue here or in other threads. In other words, make sure you actually understand what you are judging before you start talking about what another person understands.

If you'd like to address my actual position or actually answer the questions I ask, specifically and without being rude, go ahead. Otherwise, please don't respond to me anymore, in this or any other thread.

For anyone who is actually interested, the following quotes from a discussion on this topic in another thread should clarify my position on both Larrin's testing and whether any other type of testing can be even remotely valuable.

It's important to remember that any test is modeling particular conditions. Larrin's tests are awesome because they control for a lot of variables. However, they are testing a particular heat treatment for a given steel and testing it against a particular medium. Looking at his table of results for edge retention, do you see any surprises? In actual production knives that you can buy right now, do 8Cr13Mov, 14C28N, AEB-L, Nitro-V, and LC200N all have the same edge retention? Does 440A have better edge retention than all of those steels? Is 440A equivalent to BD1N? Just comparing Spyderco knives, does VG-10 have much better edge retention than BD1N?

Now, Outpost 76 might not have the same level of control but it's not willy-nilly either. He sharpens the same way to 15dps using a KME. He sharpens more than once. He takes care to get past the steel at the factory edge. He tests more than once to check for repeatable results. He is testing on a 1" section of taped off blade against the average cardboard a lot of people might actually be cutting in real life. Accepting these tests for what they are, his results are a valuable contribution.

Larrin's contribution is ongoing and I welcome it. (I have a knife in a steel he invented.) That doesn't mean there isn't more to contribute or that we shouldn't welcome other reasonable efforts. My point stands about exactly what is being modeled in certain types of test. For instance, consider the results for the Rat in D2 vs AUS-8. The test went one way under the conditions from Outpost 76 and another way for Pete's rope-cutting conditions. All of our conditions are different so I value seeing knives tested under a variety of conditions.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

While I'm sure you didn't know that I've both done and taught actual science IRL, you could have read what I've actually said on this particular issue here or in other threads. In other words, make sure you actually understand what you are judging before you start talking about what another person understands.

If you'd like to address my actual position or actually answer the questions I ask, specifically and without being rude, go ahead. Otherwise, please don't respond to me anymore, in this or any other thread.

For anyone who is actually interested, the following quotes from a discussion on this topic in another thread should clarify my position on both Larrin's testing and whether any other type of testing can be even remotely valuable.

I understand what you've said very well, you attempting to claim bona fides without providing any testing or evidence of your own is utterly worthless. Your questioning of, arguably, the foremost steel expert on Bladeforums without any hard data of your own remains a joke. If you find this to be rude, I invite you to use the ignore button, but when you make absurd statements without context I'll not refrain from pointing them out, regardless of how they may impact your feelings.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

While I'm sure you didn't know that

You’ve used variations of the word “actual” six times in three sentences…
Lets actually not be so serious.

 

[Chronovore]

You’ve used variations of the word “actual” six times in three sentences…
Lets actually not be so serious.

Please forgive me for getting visibly annoyed here. I used that word for a reason. I spend time thinking about issues. I spend time writing posts here. If I am wrong in my thinking or have an incorrect understanding of something, I find value in both correction and further education. Simply getting trashed or dismissed without regard for what I've taken the time to write really grates on me. When the same member keeps doing it, I consider it trolling.

I understand what you've said very well, you attempting to claim bona fides without providing any testing or evidence of your own is utterly worthless. Your questioning of, arguably, the foremost steel expert on Bladeforums without any hard data of your own remains a joke. If you find this to be rude, I invite you to use the ignore button, but when you make absurd statements without context I'll not refrain from pointing them out, regardless of how they may impact your feelings.

Insipid Moniker obviously does not understand what I've written. He has consistently failed to address my actual position or any of the points I've made. He has consistently failed to answer any of the questions I've asked. He has instead made blind appeals to authority, dismissed all other possible sources of information out of hand, and insulted me personally.

I will no longer be responding to him. For the first time since joining this forum, I am availing myself of "ignore" feature.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

I don’t want to take sides… As we spoke before, my way of evaluating certain steel will be based on the most scientific, credible conclusion I can find, and I’ll compare it with my experience in my line of work. As you understand it is strictly subjective but it’s my personal exp. I understand your point, also see exactly what Insipid Moniker means.
I think he is correct about the general approach Larrins tests are giving us. On the other hand, even you are concentrating on particular models and manufacturers, close to my way of evaluating a knife design and steel, you are generalizing based on those models and steels and again I’ll say it - I could be wrong, but in this case there are too many variables to state a solid opinion… Every company have bunch of specifics, especially of Spydercos caliber, they are sharpening different steels at different angles and have different HT… There are too many moving parts, where in Larrins data, everything is standardized. Maybe not 100% accurate for specific brand, model, HT of the steel, angle, testing material and techniques , but it will give you base where to start and after this to apply the specifics, and decide what to expect from the particular brand, model and so on…
‘Again, I’m not much into steels, chemical composition and so on. I like to waste time watching YT tests but for general data I’d go to info as Larrins.

 

[Billy The Hungry]

I don't buy Gerber knives, and I feel that CRKT is a step below Gerber.

I have had several CRKT knives. I bought them because of their design. Fit and finish was bad. Their cost is too high for the steel quality and materials used.

I greatly prefer Kershaw to CRKT any day, in the budget knife world.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Please forgive me for getting visibly annoyed here. I used that word for a reason. I spend time thinking about issues. I spend time writing posts here. If I am wrong in my thinking or have an incorrect understanding of something, I find value in both correction and further education. Simply getting trashed or dismissed without regard for what I've taken the time to write really grates on me. When the same member keeps doing it, I consider it trolling.



Insipid Moniker obviously does not understand what I've written. He has consistently failed to address my actual position or any of the points I've made. He has consistently failed to answer any of the questions I've asked. He has instead made blind appeals to authority, dismissed all other possible sources of information out of hand, and insulted me personally.

I will no longer be responding to him. For the first time since joining this forum, I am availing myself of "ignore" feature.

I have consistently addressed the reality of the situations being discussed, your positions and your questions. I've also demonstrated that you straight up do not understand what an appeal to authority actually is. I realize you may dislike my answers and responses, but reality is often unkind and refuses bend to those that wish it otherwise.

 

[Chronovore]

I don’t want to take sides… As we spoke before, my way of evaluating certain steel will be based on the most scientific, credible conclusion I can find, and I’ll compare it with my experience in my line of work. As you understand it is strictly subjective but it’s my personal exp. I understand your point, also see exactly what Insipid Moniker means.
I think he is correct about the general approach Larrins tests are giving us. On the other hand, even you are concentrating on particular models and manufacturers, close to my way of evaluating a knife design and steel, you are generalizing based on those models and steels and again I’ll say it - I could be wrong, but in this case there are too many variables to state a solid opinion… Every company have bunch of specifics, especially of Spydercos caliber, they are sharpening different steels at different angles and have different HT… There are too many moving parts, where in Larrins data, everything is standardized. Maybe not 100% accurate for specific brand, model, HT of the steel, angle, testing material and techniques , but it will give you base where to start and after this to apply the specifics, and decide what to expect from the particular brand, model and so on…
‘Again, I’m not much into steels, chemical composition and so on. I like to waste time watching YT tests but for general data I’d go to info as Larrins.

No problem. To put my point about modeling edge retention in different terms, it's a question of what a given steel can do versus what a given steel will do.

Larrin's tests answer a specific question: What can popular blade steels do when they are (1) given a particular heat treatment, (2) given a particular shape, and (3) tested against a particular medium? I think that's a great question. I think his control of variables is good. I think the results are informative.

Of course, another important question is why we are asking in the first place. Why are we interested? The way I'm seeing his results used is as a guide to how given steels will perform in actual knives. Well, if that's what we are going to do, it is good science to ask how well the model maps the reality. That involves asking three questions of any particular knife: Does Knife X have the same heat treatment as given in 1? Does Knife X have the same shape as given in 2? Will Knife X be used to cut the same medium as given in 3?

You can have all the controls in the world. You can have incredible precision. Those three questions still matter. (I don't think it's coincidence that I've seen versions of all three offered in challenge to the testing done by Outpost 76.) The answer to all three of those questions will often be "no". So we have to think about how much difference exists between Larrin's 1, 2, and 3 and the 1, 2, and 3 for any Knife X; and how much of a difference each will make in the actual edge retention a user will experience with a given Knife X.

The question of 3 is tricky because not everybody does the same things with their knives. (Some users may be specially interested in tests of particular knives against particular media.) The question of 2 is going to come down to the model, how it is ground, etc. The question of 1 will be informed by trends or norms in heat treatments, which I take to be a key issue here. It is from there that I asked the questions I did regarding 8Cr13Mov being rated the same as AEB-L, 14C28N, Nitro-V, and LC200N; or 440A being rated higher than all of those. Will that be true for the knives we can buy in those steels right now?

 

[abcdef]

I don't buy Gerber knives, and I feel that CRKT is a step below Gerber.

I have had several CRKT knives. I bought them because of their design. Fit and finish was bad. Their cost is too high for the steel quality and materials used.

I greatly prefer Kershaw to CRKT any day, in the budget knife world.

After reading BF for 16 years, I've learned to purchase only Gerber and CRKT.

 

[Keyman]

sorry

 

[dano]

I just ordered an M16 with the Deadbolt....will report back in a week when it gets to me...

 

[tk13]

I think I'll try to snag a Inazuma No Ken for a decent price . . . Did you get one? How is it?

 

[Greggy]

This conversation reminds me of the arguments I had with my older brothers in the 1980s over Japanese import autos. They were union workers in the construction industry and opposed the higher quality/lower price Japanese competition. Look at them today and both drive Toyotas. American manufacturers will eventually adapt. In the meantime they will lose the short run game. In the long run, we are all dead.

 

[NG VI]

I kinda dig the grind on the M16. Not enough to grab one, but I do dig it.

Yeah, it looks like a long overdue CQI to the M16 rather than an actual premium version of it. At $40 it would be pretty compelling as a nostalgia piece, at $140 I don't understand who the target audience is.

Maybe just people who refuse to buy from a brand unless they pretend to be 'an American company!' and don't actually care about being discerning with their purchases. Personally I could never look past the existence of Kizer and the WE family, not for the substantially reduced fit and finish, lower grade materials, and general gas station vibe that CRKT usually offers.

Kizer and WE also do interesting models and give the designers who work with them a lot of freedom to get their designs produced in a compelling way. But they don't try to slip turds under our nose, while companies like CRKT make us ask if they're serious with their pricing scheme.

 

[PocketKnifeJimmy]

I only have two CRKT knives in my eclectic collection of do-dads.
The first one I got was a neck knife called the 'Sweet Kiss'. It's nothing fancy, but it had caught my eye. It's made in China, and was my one and only CRKT representation.

Then, a couple or so years ago, I noticed a deal on a CRKT fixed blade knife called the 'Karen Hood Chopper'. It had a ridiculously high MSRP, but was being sold by Knifecenter at an equally ridiculously low blowout clearance price. The sheath was nothing to brag about, but the knife itself seemed very nicely done. It was made for CRKT by a USA maker, but by who?...
Well, the knife had a certain build quality look to it that seemed very familiar to me. It sure did look like it was a Tops made knife, (my having some other Tops knives in my collection to have noticed that).
I wound up doing a bit of online research on it, and sure enough, it was made in the USA by Tops under CRKT contract. I went back to Knifecenter and purchased it for their great deal of under $100.

Since then, I did pick up another great Knifecenter deal on a CRKT Rune Tomahawk, designed by RMJ Tactical, and made in Taiwan. It only cost me about $45.
Nothing else CRKT has entered my collection of "interesting objects" since that purchase.

But, I'm okay with the few representations I do have of CRKT.