NEW 4.7 Thread

Guy runs his business the way Guy runs his business and I get that and respect that, but of people keep saying they can't find flaws with seconds and even ugly betties maybe more of them should be kept in the factory first pile.
 
Guy runs his business the way Guy runs his business and I get that and respect that, but of people keep saying they can't find flaws with seconds and even ugly betties maybe more of them should be kept in the factory first pile.

I disagree
This is ecactly what make survive unique
Their worse knives are better than the competition's best
 
Guy runs his business the way Guy runs his business and I get that and respect that, but of people keep saying they can't find flaws with seconds and even ugly betties maybe more of them should be kept in the factory first pile.

Agree.

I've never seen a new knife come from the factory with a polished edge. Extremely sharp, yes, but polished no. Until my 'factory 2nd' showed up. Which is also perfect in every other regard, as far as I can tell.

This level of materials, attention to detail, crazy good work on the edge, and included accessories (great sheath, loctite, stickers, notebook, great shipping packaging, torx bit, etc.) seems like it should cost considerably more. I'm not one to sneeze at a good value, but I can't help wondering if the obsessive standards and low pricepoint, in conjunction, are part of what's hampering throughput.

Anyways, I'm really impressed with the product, all else aside.
 
Guy runs his business the way Guy runs his business and I get that and respect that, but of people keep saying they can't find flaws with seconds and even ugly betties maybe more of them should be kept in the factory first pile.

Rereading my post it could be seen as snarky, but that wasn't my intent. If the seconds and betties had visible flaws then that would mean more firsts going out to preorderers and more money (because Guy could charge full price) for the company. Win/win, right?
 
I disagree
This is ecactly what make survive unique
Their worse knives are better than the competition's best

Personally, I can't help wondering if they shouldn't have a series of grades that get different levels of fit/finish and q/a — they'd all need to pass the same basic geometric and functional q/a, but have differing levels of tolerance and finish available at different price-points and cost grades. "Safe queen" grade (perfect, full custom setup), "field grade premium" (some blems allowed, broad configuration options), "field grade" (some blems allowed, only shelf-stock configurations), "ugly betty" (barebones finish, q/a, and accoutrements). Each sequentially lower grade would also be sequentially more available due to less labour input required to produce the knife.

I'd happily buy an as-ground (or stonewashed) b-grade (actual b-grade, not "looks-perfect" b-grade) with a normal (unpolished, but sharp) edge cruforge blade, with no customizations, no cerakote (maybe something simpler/cheaper like the caswell coating Winkler uses), and none of the included accessories. My new CFV 2nd is going to be a beater knife for general house and camping chores, and it's sure not going to look unblemished for very long. I'm sure a lot of other users just don't need to see the ultra-perfectionist-grade QA level applied on their user knives, and I wonder if the option to forego some processes would help speed up overall shop throughput over at SK!

I'm sure the SK! folks are thinking in more or less the same direction (the ambiguous SK series, I'd wager, is probably coming from some of the same thinking as above). Ultimately, there's a big available niche they could fill in between the "holy hell it's perfect" level of the current GSOs, and the "my god, this thing is a great value" level of something like a Becker. The middle-ground, I imagine, is the "top materials, top heat treat, top design, but user finish". IE. GSO level design + materials, but Becker level finish. Reckon they'd sell like hotcakes — and ship faster too.

Anyways... I'm definitely not complaining about my 4.7. It's lovely. Just thinking out loud.
 
Great thoughts, timi. As far as what you're getting for the price, I think the cost of a GSO could easily cover 1095 steel with an average sheath and the insane attention to detail OR true production level fit and finish with the super steels and micarta and excellent sheath. To get both at this cost is amazing.

If they keep the options limited on the SK line and maybe even let someone else sharpen them I could see the design and materials standing on their own selling very, very well.

I'm sure there are those folks who feel the essence of a SURVIVE! knife IS the insane level of attention and quality, and as much as I respect Guy for his high standards, I'll be ready with my $$$ for the SK line!
 
As I recall it took a lot to get Guy to sell anything that wasn't the absolute best he could create.
Then he was convinced to sell seconds, and later he sold ugly bettys, and then he even released some of the old spec 5s.
So if think from Guy's perspective he already has taken steps to move more product with different levels of finish.
From my perspective they are all truly excellent knives.
I am also looking forward to learning more about the SK series, because if I'm reading the tea leaves correctly they won't be getting the same level of hands on attention that even the Uglies are getting.
I'm assuming that they will still be pretty great knives (because Guy is designing them) but with fewer production headaches.
That really should make everybody happier, and probably also move the GSO line further into the custom quality realm.
 
Personally, I can't help wondering if they shouldn't have a series of grades that get different levels of fit/finish and q/a — they'd all need to pass the same basic geometric and functional q/a, but have differing levels of tolerance and finish available at different price-points and cost grades. "Safe queen" grade (perfect, full custom setup), "field grade premium" (some blems allowed, broad configuration options), "field grade" (some blems allowed, only shelf-stock configurations), "ugly betty" (barebones finish, q/a, and accoutrements). Each sequentially lower grade would also be sequentially more available due to less labour input required to produce the knife.

I'd happily buy an as-ground (or stonewashed) b-grade (actual b-grade, not "looks-perfect" b-grade) with a normal (unpolished, but sharp) edge cruforge blade, with no customizations, no cerakote (maybe something simpler/cheaper like the caswell coating Winkler uses), and none of the included accessories. My new CFV 2nd is going to be a beater knife for general house and camping chores, and it's sure not going to look unblemished for very long. I'm sure a lot of other users just don't need to see the ultra-perfectionist-grade QA level applied on their user knives, and I wonder if the option to forego some processes would help speed up overall shop throughput over at SK!

I'm sure the SK! folks are thinking in more or less the same direction (the ambiguous SK series, I'd wager, is probably coming from some of the same thinking as above). Ultimately, there's a big available niche they could fill in between the "holy hell it's perfect" level of the current GSOs, and the "my god, this thing is a great value" level of something like a Becker. The middle-ground, I imagine, is the "top materials, top heat treat, top design, but user finish". IE. GSO level design + materials, but Becker level finish. Reckon they'd sell like hotcakes — and ship faster too...

Yeah, really curious to see who they pick (or who makes the best bid) to produce the SK line at a more cost-effective price, and where they cut corners to achieve it.

The Benchmade "Steep Mountain" is (spec-wise) a close comparison to the GSO-3.5, but has S30V steel and a 'santoprene' handle and very basic kydex sheath + loop, and it'll run you $100. Slap some G10 scales on it like the "Saddle Mountain Skinner" and your now paying $132. Now that's certainly more affordable than the GSO 'first' at $184, but with a factory second priced at ~$165 or whatever, or compared to an "Ugly Betty" 4.7 priced at just $125 ??? Sorry, no, the Benchmade just ain't worth it. S30V is nice, but isn't Delta3V or 20CV, and that benchmade sheath is trash compared to what S!K provides with their knives, and those two things right there are worth well more than $30-40 difference.

Ontario just released the "Cerberus" that compares to the GSO-4.7, featuring D2 steel, G10 scales, and a kydex sheath (with a weird cord+loop thing), priced at ~$150 at KC right now, and the geometry is not going to be able to cut it alongside a 4.7 (pun intended)... But they have made knvies for other companies before.

The closest thing that Buck has to compare may be the 245 "Matt Would Go" - pretty decent looking kydex sheath, micarta scales, 5160 steel that is just ground and coated and sharpened... priced at ~$145, and again it won't have the cutting geomety of a GSO... Buck also has the "Endeavor" that is 420HC with their standard sort of look (satin-ground, hollow to a none-too-thin edge), comes with a china-made nylon sheath and has nylon scales, and that is <$50 - very low for US-made.

Gerber has a US factory but is now owned by Fiskars and doesn't seem to sport the QC level that Guy would demand even for a production-line entirely out of his hands. Though something that impresses me about the Gerber Strongarm and LMFII is that those two knives are well built, USA-made, and feature pretty decent injection-molded sheaths. Gerber used nylon and rubber on the handles, that saved some costs, and isn't too picky about how even their workers grind the final edge bevels (mine was alright but some are terrible uneven), but they're pretty nice considering the price, I'd pick either one over most Beckers (excluding the BK16 - that's a really well-made inexpensive knife).

Becker keeps building knives in their standard 1095CV rough-ground and coated, with 'grivory' scales and a sad china/mexico-made nylon sheath... I really don't understand that, what consumer wouldn't be willing to pay $15 more and get an excellent US-made kydex sheath from S!K's supplier??? Anyway, Becker does seem like a nice option for enhanced affordability. Even the Ritter Mk2 is <$130. But the Mk2 is made by Rowen, and would Becker/Kabar really care to make knives for another company? Have they ever done that before?

TOPS knives - the HOG 4.5 may be their nicest but skips the kydex sheath, BOB is pretty popular but is a brick compared to S!K's geometry, and both feature basic rough-ground and traction-coated 1095 and price ~$140... Also made by Rowen? Not sure...

ESEE knives are made by Rowen Mfg in Idaho Falls (just down the road from S!K in Kellogg) and are similar to TOPS in regard to materials and manufacture although they only recently started shaping their handles a little better (the 'HM' models?), that was evidently a way that they saved on costs... the Izula and Candiru are <$100 but the 3 is right there and larger models are more. If Guy and Rowen were able to strike a deal, I'd be VERY interested to see the result :thumbup:


So what I am seeing is, companies scrimp on the sheath, on the handle material, on the steel, and on the surface finish in order to get down to $100, and only Becker-Buck-Gerber succeed. The rest are somewhere between Becker and S!K in price, upgrading handle materials and maybe other aspects as well.


Anyway, sorry for the long ramble, also just thinking 'out loud' :p
 
Yeah, I think, reasonably, that the 'full-tilt' S!K knives should cost substantially more than they currently do, and the 'budget' option, at around the $175-200 pricepoint, would still represent a great value as compared to a lot of the options listed above. It's reasonable to think that a prospective buyer would see the jump from an ESEE 4 to a budget SK 4.7 as being worth an additional $75-ish bucks, particularly once you fit the esee with better scales and sheath.

At the current level of fit/finish on the GSOs (even the Bettys, it seems), the S!K knives are a crazy value (not counting the buying experience, but that's neither here nor there). They could conceivably continue making a 'budget' line in-house, on an alternating production cycle with the 'full-bore-GSO-quality' grade, at around what I paid for my ostensibly perfect fac-second cruforge, without having to go to an external manufacturer. I don't think they need to get anywhere near $100. At $175, they could deliver less knife, faster, and it'd still be a very good value.

Once/If Guy doesn't need to personally Q/A and sharpen every single knife, I'd imagine that throughput likely goes wayyy up.
 
I was thinking the new SK line would be kept in house like the first run, just with limited models, materials and options and a new, full on S! employee grinding alongside Guy as Guy works on the GSO's.

Unless, Chiral, there's something you know that we don't???

Again, Guy knows what is best, but I would think if the entire production left the S! shop, the knives would lose the heart that makes them what they are.
 
I was thinking the new SK line would be kept in house like the first run, just with limited models, materials and options and a new, full on S! employee grinding alongside Guy as Guy works on the GSO's.

Unless, Chiral, there's something you know that we don't???

Again, Guy knows what is best, but I would think if the entire production left the S! shop, the knives would lose the heart that makes them what they are.

Yeah, my thinking aligns with yours there. Ultimately it seems like the bottleneck we've seen has been the difficulty in scaling up from one ultra-perfectionist acting as the final arbiter of what goes out the door. If they can jump that hurdle by relaxing the standard on a different 'grade' of knife (with the same general configurations), things could get interesting.
 
Yeah, my thinking aligns with yours there. Ultimately it seems like the bottleneck we've seen has been the difficulty in scaling up from one ultra-perfectionist acting as the final arbiter of what goes out the door. If they can jump that hurdle by relaxing the standard on a different 'grade' of knife (with the same general configurations), things could get interesting.

To go along with your last few posts, I think letting most factory seconds go out as firsts might help their margins a bit and would have more blades going to preorder customers, but really wouldn't speed things up.

If the SK line kept even all the same materials (3v being an amazing steel, yet remaining the least expensive option for the customer) and had 2 handle choices and a black sheath with a new, yet reputable guy or gal doing the final finishing, we'd really see a change. Forget Gerber or TOPS, what would stop this scenario of the SK models from competing with the Fiddleback Forge production line?
 
Does anyone know why they started labeling the 2nds as such ?

Do you mean 1.why did they start putting "factory second" under the flag or 2.why do they sell factory seconds?

1. Factory seconds used to be identified by a small divot on the tang under the handle. While discrete, a lot of people didn't know to look here or removing the handle wasn't something folks usually did to take pics to sell the knife.

2. Guy has super high OCD levels of attention to detail and fit and finish, so if something is a little off on a blade (scratch, dent, unevenness) it gets marked as a second and sold at a discount.
 
Do you mean 1.why did they start putting "factory second" under the flag or 2.why do they sell factory seconds?

1. Factory seconds used to be identified by a small divot on the tang under the handle. While discrete, a lot of people didn't know to look here or removing the handle wasn't something folks usually did to take pics to sell the knife.

2. Guy has super high OCD levels of attention to detail and fit and finish, so if something is a little off on a blade (scratch, dent, unevenness) it gets marked as a second and sold at a discount.

My 4.7 and 2.7 don't say factory 2nd on them and I wonder if my 4.1 I just ordered is going to have a stamp. I was just wondering if anyone knew if this was going to be a permanent thing with sk ?
 
My 4.7 and 2.7 don't say factory 2nd on them and I wonder if my 4.1 I just ordered is going to have a stamp. I was just wondering if anyone knew if this was going to be a permanent thing with sk ?

Now I get it. I can't remember when the engraving took over from the divot, but I believe the plan is to keep the engraving with everything moving forward. My guess is your 4.7 and 2.7 have divots under the scale and your 4.1 will be engraved.
 
Now I get it. I can't remember when the engraving took over from the divot, but I believe the plan is to keep the engraving with everything moving forward. My guess is your 4.7 and 2.7 have divots under the scale and your 4.1 will be engraved.
I will be honest I was really kinda bummed to see the stamps but It's not that big a deal for me
 
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