New Doug Ritter folder

Connor_MacLeod said:
I agree with whoever it was above that pointed out that the Freek uses the Ritter blade and the ritter knife uses the Griptilian handle.

Were you guys offended when Benchmade copied Ritter's blade for the Freek? If not, why the outrage over Doug copying Mel's handle?

My stance is that Mel, Benchmade, and Doug are all big boys who can take care of themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if all of them were laughing at the outrage displayed on this forum.
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So, Benchmade used a design element from an item in their catalogue and put it to further use on another item. The Rittergrip isn't the only knife on the planet to have that basic drop-point shape. Also, again, the Griptilian is a bread and butter model for Benchmade, and now another company is making a knife which to everyone who's not kidding themselves looks like a Rittergrip, a product which was essentially a Griptilian with minor changes.
 
Knife_Geek said:
A man who contracted with a company to produce his product(which was created with the help of Mel Pardue admittedly) doing business with another company (after the original company ended their business relations) to continue producing his product.

VS.

A company blatantly copying the design from another company with no common element other than the fact that both companies make knives.

Doesnt sound very similar to me if you take out names/emotions.

Quotes from Les and Mel themselves make it pretty clear to me neither one of them viewed the RSK MK1 a Benchmade or Mel design but in fact really viewed this knife as a creation of Doug himself.

Les noted, "I am very pleased that we have been able to combine Doug Ritter's considerable expertise and uncompromising standards together with Benchmade's world-class manufacturing capabilities to create this 'purpose driven' design collaboration. The resulting Doug Ritter RSK Mk1 is a no-nonsense tool ensuring the highest degree of survivability while in harm's way--and a smart value as well."

Said Mel, "after many years of discussions on the subject, it is a pleasure to see Doug's quest to create a practical survival folder with all the features he holds dear come to life by combining this classic blade shape he loves and top-notch steel with one of my most successful and well-received designs. The Griptilian® has so many subtle features built in to it that really show up when you actually use the knife; the response by the end user has been very gratifying."
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I don't recall the Griptilian being Doug's product. Which came first?
 
Knife_Geek said:
A man who contracted with a company to produce his product(which was created with the help of Mel Pardue admittedly) doing business with another company (after the original company ended their business relations) to continue producing his product.

VS.

A company blatantly copying the design from another company with no common element other than the fact that both companies make knives.

Doesnt sound very similar to me if you take out names/emotions.

Quotes from Les and Mel themselves make it pretty clear to me neither one of them viewed the RSK MK1 a Benchmade or Mel design but in fact really viewed this knife as a creation of Doug himself.

Les noted, "I am very pleased that we have been able to combine Doug Ritter's considerable expertise and uncompromising standards together with Benchmade's world-class manufacturing capabilities to create this 'purpose driven' design collaboration. The resulting Doug Ritter RSK Mk1 is a no-nonsense tool ensuring the highest degree of survivability while in harm's way--and a smart value as well."

Said Mel, "after many years of discussions on the subject, it is a pleasure to see Doug's quest to create a practical survival folder with all the features he holds dear come to life by combining this classic blade shape he loves and top-notch steel with one of my most successful and well-received designs. The Griptilian® has so many subtle features built in to it that really show up when you actually use the knife; the response by the end user has been very gratifying."
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Doug didn't design the griptilian. He just put his blade on it. The thing isn't called the bladetilian. It's called a grip for a reason. The grip. Doug was not involved with that. But he now gets a pass for taking that design? Nope.
 
hhmoore said:
I'm not poo-pooing the objections - I understand them.

I am simply willing to admit my lack of knowledge of whatever licensing or contractual agreements were had between Ritter and Benchmade, or what restrictions there may have been on him getting the MK1 produced after Benchmade stopped manufacturing it. There's no point in me being outraged or indignant. Given the potential ramifications, I expect that people with far better understanding of the law than me (and that actually viewed & understood whatever contracts, agreements, etc existed) were involved in this process. I would be beyond surprised if it was revealed that Benchmade was unaware that Hogue was going to begin manufacturing the MK1-G2 long before it was announced here. (fwiw, the MK2 is a fixed blade, known on the forums as a BK12 - the designation it was to have when Camillus was going to produce it...but, when Kabar gave their okay on Ritter seeking another manufacturer, it was stipulated that it could not bear BK&T labeling - so, regardless of what we call it, officially it is not a BK12. See the similarity?)
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Not really. The BK"12" is just a rebranded BK10, isn't it? They're both KAbar products branded under the "Becker" name, aren't they? They're very similar, just with some weight gimmickry in the handle. I've held one and noticed little discernible difference. It certainly doesn't have any elements that would allow me to "survive" better than I could with a regular BK10.

That's really my point. We're talking about established products with minimal changes versus another company now producing what was another company's bread and butter model with minimal changes. At this juncture, I don't really care what the foibles are. I think vastly less of Doug Ritter, and don't care what his explanations are, I'll never give him or his organization a dime. Everyone else here is free to do as they wish.
 
I don’t see this fervor when the Buck 110 gets copied.
The only way I have a problem with this is if Houge puts BM branding on the knife, and that is not the case.
 
willc said:
I don’t see this fervor when the Buck 110 gets copied.
The only way I have a problem with this is if Houge puts BM branding on the knife, and that is not the case.
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So your line is drawn at counterfeiting, not cloning. Good to know.
 
Quiet said:
Not really. The BK"12" is just a rebranded BK10, isn't it? They're both KAbar products branded under the "Becker" name, aren't they? They're very similar, just with some weight gimmickry in the handle. I've held one and noticed little discernible difference. It certainly doesn't have any elements that would allow me to "survive" better than I could with a regular BK10.

That's really my point. We're talking about established products with minimal changes versus another company now producing what was another company's bread and butter model with minimal changes. At this juncture, I don't really care what the foibles are. I think vastly less of Doug Ritter, and don't care what his explanations are, I'll never give him or his organization a dime. Everyone else here is free to do as they wish.
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The BK12 isn't a Ka-Bar product.
 
Nautique said:
The BK12 isn't a Ka-Bar product.
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Interesting, so they essentially had another company make a Kabar/Becker product with minimal changes. So, this is something that they've done before. Interesting.
 
willc said:
I don’t see this fervor when the Buck 110 gets copied.
The only way I have a problem with this is if Houge puts BM branding on the knife, and that is not the case.
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The hell's a Buck 110?
 
Quiet said:
Not really. The BK"12" is just a rebranded BK10, isn't it? They're both KAbar products branded under the "Becker" name, aren't they? They're very similar, just with some weight gimmickry in the handle. I've held one and noticed little discernible difference. It certainly doesn't have any elements that would allow me to "survive" better than I could with a regular BK10.
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No, the Mk2 ("BK12") is not just a rebranded BK10... neither is it a Kabar or BK&T product. Yes, it uses the Becker handles - with Ethan Becker's blessing - it was a collaboration, after all. You might want to read Ritter's explanation of how that knife came to be, since your "understanding" of it seems more than a little off base.
As far as whether you like the knife, or think it's better than the BK10, well, you're welcome to your opinions - personally, I'm not a fan of the BK10; but a lot of people find it quite useful. I took the weights out...the difference, while sitting inside, was pretty minimal; and I can't say I found it noticeable during use.
 
hhmoore said:
No, the Mk2 ("BK12") is not just a rebranded BK10... neither is it a Kabar or BK&T product. Yes, it uses the Becker handles - with Ethan Becker's blessing - it was a collaboration, after all. You might want to read Ritter's explanation of how that knife came to be, since your "understanding" of it seems more than a little off base.
As far as whether you like the knife, or think it's better than the BK10, well, you're welcome to your opinions - personally, I'm not a fan of the BK10; but a lot of people find it quite useful. I took the weights out...the difference, while sitting inside, was pretty minimal; and I can't say I found it noticeable during use.
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My point is that that product was essentially what happened there, and actually, I DID just read up more on it, and see, that's the odd thing. There, Ritter had the blessing of the folks who had created and designed the base product.

Why isn't that the case here?
 
Are you suggesting that Pardue had an issue with his handle design being used on the Mk1? (I'm assuming that you consider the handle the base product)
 
hhmoore said:
Are you suggesting that Pardue had an issue with his handle design being used on the Mk1? (I'm assuming that you consider the handle the base product)
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No, I am just not sure if he has an issue with his handle being used on this MK2, and I also don't know how Benchmade feels about their bread and butter product knife's handle being used for another company's product. That's my issue.

And really, you know, at this point I don't care. I'm just one person, so who cares what I think? No one is kidding themselves here, Knifeworks will sell as many of them as they can have Hogue make. (shrug)
 
Quiet said:
No, I am just not sure if he has an issue with his handle being used on this MK2, and I also don't know how Benchmade feels about their bread and butter product knife's handle being used for another company's product. That's my issue.

And really, you know, at this point I don't care. I'm just one person, so who cares what I think? No one is kidding themselves here, Knifeworks will sell as many of them as they can have Hogue make. (shrug)
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The point is, the article about the original Mk1 references the discussions between Pardue, Ritter, and Benchmade & calls the Mk1 a collaborative effort manufactured to his specifications. There is also a quote from Pardue which seems to indicate that Ritter had his blessing, regarding the use of the handle design. I think the biggest issue now stems from the colloquial name Ritter Grip for a knife that was manufactured under a different name. Rather than accepting it as a separate thing, or denouncing it as a clone, it was widely embraced as an improved version of the griptilian. Now, years later, the person whose name has been on it all this time is continuing production with another manufacturer; and suddenly it's a problem. But is it because the knife more of a clone now than it was then? Or is it because people failed to accept it as the RSK Mk1, and now they are confronted by it no longer being a griptilian?
I've wasted too much time on this discussion already. Time for me to focus on things that actually impact my world.
 
hhmoore said:
The point is, the article about the original Mk1 references the discussions between Pardue, Ritter, and Benchmade & calls the Mk1 a collaborative effort manufactured to his specifications. There is also a quote from Pardue which seems to indicate that Ritter had his blessing, regarding the use of the handle design. I think the biggest issue now stems from the colloquial name Ritter Grip for a knife that was manufactured under a different name. Rather than accepting it as a separate thing, or denouncing it as a clone, it was widely embraced as an improved version of the griptilian. Now, years later, the person whose name has been on it all this time is continuing production with another manufacturer; and suddenly it's a problem. But is it because the knife more of a clone now than it was then? Or is it because people failed to accept it as the RSK Mk1, and now they are confronted by it no longer being a griptilian?
I've wasted too much time on this discussion already. Time for me to focus on things that actually impact my world.
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My last response in this thread addresses your last question. You're actually clarifying the actual issue for me. The MK1 was not a wholesale design. It was a modified version of a company's regular product. That's the issue at hand. This HogTilian isn't a wholesale design. It's essentially a 99% rehash of the MK1, which is a modified version of another company's regular product. Why didn't Ritter simply look through Hogue's catalog and do what he did with Benchmade? Find a handle that seemed good, and then add his drop-point design blade and call it good? Why did he have to say "Hogue, see that thing I did at Benchmade with a Benchmade product, well copy that whole shebang"? Was that necessary?

Also, some Google-Fu brought this to light: "The Griptilian-series is the result of a joint design effort between Benchmade engineers, custom makers Bill McHenry and Jason Williams (of AXIS fame) and Mel Pardue."

I don't see Doug Ritter's name anywhere there, so I'm guessing he had zero to do with the design of the Griptilian. His blade shape? A modified version of a Griptilian blade. This essentially means exactly what I have been saying: the MK1 (which this MK2 copies) is essentially a modified Benchmade product, not some super duper new design, and therefore something that Ritter owns himself by virtue of being the designer.

Now, having said my piece, I also am bowing out of this thread.
 
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