New Doug Ritter folder

We’ve got two sides pointlessly butting heads here over a knife there can be no absolute knowledge of.

On one side we’ve referred to craytab craytab @Insipid Moniker @Pilsner and the rest of the folks who have an issue with this knife as “Social Warriors”. That’s insulting and not constructive. I’ve argued against clones and counterfeits alongside these folks numerous times and know that they’re speaking out from high standards and principles. They’re not objecting to this knife without solid, personal reasons. I don't agree with the directness of their approach but I fully support the wariness with which they're approaching this knife.

On the other side we have detractors who infer that liking this knife is indicative of lesser moral fiber. That’s no Bueno too.

If you like this knife there’s not much more to say until they ship and you get them in hand.

If you object to this knife there are not many more eloquent ways to re-state those objections. At this point you’re probably directing more attention to this knife than you would wish. I consider the objections to be founded, at this point, on opinion and perception, but that doesn’t make them any less valid. Hell, all any of us can have at this point is an opinion.

For now, I’m going to stay in the middle. I haven’t ordered one. Probably wouldn’t order one at this current size, but who knows. I'm going to wait until folks have them in hand and can offer commentary based on relevant experience.

In terms of what “deals” may or may not exist between the named players in this knife; we simply have no right to know as consumers. It would be nice, but we have no right. We can certainly ask for clarification regarding the relationship between Mr. Pardue and Mr. Ritter but if there’s no answer, it doesn't mean we or Mr. Pardue have been wronged. In this case the lack of revelation is not evidence of foul play.

If Mr. Ritter hasn’t returned to address some of those valid questions from earlier, I’d put my money on it being due to him being treated like a common cloner. His name may as well have been Kevin John. I find this far more likely than "running from a line of hard questions".

But then again, I’m a sucker for happy endings. Hopefully we can respect all sides, agree to disagree and have relevant discussion about a knife.
 
Having read the full description on KWs site it seems Ritter credited EVERYONE except Mel Pardue: Benchmade and McHenry/Williams for the axis which became the ABLE lock, Les George for inspiring the handle motif, etc.

Forgetting Mel seems too big of an oversight to be accidental. I'm going to give them benefit of the doubt and guess that there's either something preventing them from mentioning Mel or perhaps the overall shape of the handle on the griptilian was more of a collaborative effort and not something that required design credit.

Regardless, I'd bet Benchmade has benefited greatly from Doug's efforts with kniferights. Allowing the manufacture of what is still basically a griptilian by Hogue and Ritter after choosing to cancel the RSK seems a small concession.
 
T.L.E. Sharp said:
Having read the full description on KWs site it seems Ritter credited EVERYONE except Mel Pardue: Benchmade and McHenry/Williams for the axis which became the ABLE lock, Les George for inspiring the handle motif, etc.

Forgetting Mel seems too big of an oversight to be accidental. I'm going to give them benefit of the doubt and guess that there's either something preventing them from mentioning Mel or perhaps the overall shape of the handle on the griptilian was more of a collaborative effort and not something that required design credit.

Regardless, I'd bet Benchmade has benefited greatly from Doug's efforts with kniferights. Allowing the manufacture of what is still basically a griptilian by Hogue and Ritter after choosing to cancel the RSK seems a small concession.
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I see this as a very distinct possibility. BM discontinued the model to make room for their own "copycat" version with the Freek. Since Ritter took the high road and said nothing about how the Freek's blade practically mirrored his. The least they could do was shut up about the new RSK's handle doing the same.
It could've very easily blown up into something like..
BM: "You stole our handle design!! Stop or we'll sue!"
DR: "Oh yeah? Well you stole my blade design!! I'll sue you right back!"
That is why I think the whole thing wound up with a silent agreement between BM & Mr. Ritter to just quietly move on.

FWIW- I just pulled out my Ritter Mini Grip, and I noticed that Mel's name is not mentioned on the blade like on plain Grips & Mini's. However, It is still referred to as a Griptillian, and Benchmade does give Pardue credit for that design in all it's literature about the knife. To the layman though, it is a knife by Doug Ritter and Benchmade.
Just food for thought.
 
NorthernSouthpaw said:
FWIW- I just pulled out my Ritter Mini Grip, and I noticed that Mel's name is not mentioned on the blade like on plain Grips & Mini's. However, It is still referred to as a Griptillian, and Benchmade does give Pardue credit for that design in all it's literature about the knife.
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Where is the Ritter referred to as a Griptilian? And what literature does Benchmade have for the Ritter?
(serious questions - I have never owned either knife)
 
hhmoore said:
Where is the Ritter referred to as a Griptilian? And what literature does Benchmade have for the Ritter?
(serious questions - I have never owned either knife)
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It's been referred to as that virtually everywhere that I've seen it. The "Ritter MK1" name is virtually never used, which isn't surprising considering the Rittergrip is just a Griptilian with a marginally differently shaped blade* and M390 blade steel in a Griptilian handle. If nothing else, that's why this knife reads as a clone to a lot of us. There was very little that actually separated Griptilians and the Ritter version, so to see Hogue making what is essentually another Griptilian rubs us the wrong way.



* I'm guessing to make it more suitable for "survival". LOL
 
Pilsner said:
The first sentence sums up the rest of the post, which is at best an entirely personal and not very coherent argument as to why you don’t have a moral problem buying this knife. I don’t see why one should just blithely accept leaving Pardue out of the credits, or why pointing out this glaring omission is failing to see the woods for the trees. If you choose to ignore it then of course it is easy to dodge the issue and claim there is nothing wrong.
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I guess you read what you want to read. Either it was wrong to make a blatant copy (forest) or it is fine as long as you make citations(trees). In the latter case not citing Mel Pardue is a nitpick. I think the design of the handle is different enough to not need a citation, despite claims they are indistinguishable they do have differences. I didn't ignore the issue, I don't agree with your premise that he needed to be cited for the handle. You say it is similar enough that it should be cited. I guess that is where we disagree, because apparently it is fine to copy as long as everyone gets cited. Normally I don't like copies, but since Ritter actually worked in collaboration on the knife before being cut loose by corporate restructuring I am fine with him having it made elsewhere, so yes I am fine with it being a copy.
 
hhmoore said:
Where is the Ritter referred to as a Griptilian? And what literature does Benchmade have for the Ritter?
(serious questions - I have never owned either knife)
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This is a collaborative evolution of Benchmade's Griptilian®folder produced exclusively to my own specifications.
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http://www.dougritter.com/dr_rsk_mk1.htm
This is from the description of the original RSK MK1 on Doug Ritters website. The new knife is RSK Mk1-G2 with the G2 standing for generation 2. The new knife can reasonably be considered another evolution of a knife derived from the griptilian.
 
Mr. Ritter's Collaboration was to simply have Benchmade put a different Blade style on an already existing knife. A knife that was (outside of the lock mechanism) 100% designed by Mel Pardue. The handle to the Ritter Grip is more than identical to a regular Griptillian. They came off the same line. The blades are completely interchangeable.
You keep calling it a collaboration, but you seem to not understand that Doug Ritter had absolutely nothing, zero, zip, zilch, nada, nil, to do with the design of the Benchmade RSKs handle.
The argument that Cray & Insipid are making is that the grip is essentially a Grip.
 
I have been silent but I'll play a little devils advocate. Who has the rights/trademarks on the RSK MK1? I would speculate Ritter particularly at this point as it would give him all necessary rights to produce the knife where ever he likes.
 
Quiet said:
It's been referred to as that virtually everywhere that I've seen it. The "Ritter MK1" name is virtually never used, which isn't surprising considering the Rittergrip is just a Griptilian with a marginally differently shaped blade* and M390 blade steel in a Griptilian handle. If nothing else, that's why this knife reads as a clone to a lot of us. There was very little that actually separated Griptilians and the Ritter version, so to see Hogue making what is essentually another Griptilian rubs us the wrong way.
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I know that PEOPLE called it the Ritter Grip - that doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. I was trying to ascertain if anything from Benchmade made such a reference, as the post I quoted seemed to suggest (though, while his "Ritter Grip" seemed to be the subject, he did mention regular griptilians).
Keep in mind that the RSK MK1, while manufactured by Benchmade, was neither sold nor marketed by them. I will make no guesses as to why Benchmade chose to stop producing the knife for Mr. Ritter... but neither will I make the assumption that the decision prohibited Mr. Ritter from finding another manufacturer. There may be some ill feelings surrounding the whole thing; but, again, if anybody should be making a fuss, I would think it would be Benchmade. After all, we aren't talking about companies on opposite sides of the world, with little regard for US law... they're all right here.
 
hhmoore said:
I know that PEOPLE called it the Ritter Grip - that doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things. I was trying to ascertain if anything from Benchmade made such a reference, as the post I quoted seemed to suggest (though, while his "Ritter Grip" seemed to be the subject, he did mention regular griptilians).
Keep in mind that the RSK MK1, while manufactured by Benchmade, was neither sold nor marketed by them. I will make no guesses as to why Benchmade chose to stop producing the knife for Mr. Ritter... but neither will I make the assumption that the decision prohibited Mr. Ritter from finding another manufacturer. There may be some ill feelings surrounding the whole thing; but, again, if anybody should be making a fuss, I would think it would be Benchmade. After all, we aren't talking about companies on opposite sides of the world, with little regard for US law... they're all right here.
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"It doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things"

I'm sorry, what? It's what they were called here, and virtually everywhere else on the internet where knives are talked about. This knife was a Griptilian with a marginally different blade. It was sold as a Knifeworks exclusive, but there were no attempts to cover up what it was.

The problem here is that Benchmade still sells Griptilians, they're one of the absolute bedrock models for them. It's not like we're talking about this Mark2 as something that's bringing an old dead and gone design back. That's the problem here. What if Ritter and Hogue decided to make a knife that looked 99.99% like a Spyderco PM2? Would people still be trying to poo-poo the objections away? I wonder.
 
I'm not poo-pooing the objections - I understand them.

I am simply willing to admit my lack of knowledge of whatever licensing or contractual agreements were had between Ritter and Benchmade, or what restrictions there may have been on him getting the MK1 produced after Benchmade stopped manufacturing it. There's no point in me being outraged or indignant. Given the potential ramifications, I expect that people with far better understanding of the law than me (and that actually viewed & understood whatever contracts, agreements, etc existed) were involved in this process. I would be beyond surprised if it was revealed that Benchmade was unaware that Hogue was going to begin manufacturing the MK1-G2 long before it was announced here. (fwiw, the MK2 is a fixed blade, known on the forums as a BK12 - the designation it was to have when Camillus was going to produce it...but, when Kabar gave their okay on Ritter seeking another manufacturer, it was stipulated that it could not bear BK&T labeling - so, regardless of what we call it, officially it is not a BK12. See the similarity?)
 
Quiet said:
"It doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things"

I'm sorry, what? It's what they were called here, and virtually everywhere else on the internet where knives are talked about. This knife was a Griptilian with a marginally different blade. It was sold as a Knifeworks exclusive, but there were no attempts to cover up what it was.

The problem here is that Benchmade still sells Griptilians, they're one of the absolute bedrock models for them. It's not like we're talking about this Mark2 as something that's bringing an old dead and gone design back. That's the problem here. What if Ritter and Hogue decided to make a knife that looked 99.99% like a Spyderco PM2? Would people still be trying to poo-poo the objections away? I wonder.
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I see a lot of the folks who've done collaborations with Spyderco still selling their version of the knife. Kevin Wilkins, Marcin Slysz, Ed Schempp; the all came to an agreement that didn't involve signing their IP away.

Of course it would be ideal to get statements from both sides of this but that doesn't seem likely if they haven't come yet.

In the absence of that it would seem that the most likely explanation is that as part of the agreement Party A held onto the IP of the knife. When party B decided to stop making it that was the catalyst. From what A said the royalties from that knife were good for him. B most likely looked at the margin on that knife and decided that they could fill that spot in the catalog with something they didn't have to pay royalties on.
 
craytab said:
Sog gets destroyed for the sogzila. This is no different.
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A man who contracted with a company to produce his product(which was created with the help of Mel Pardue admittedly) doing business with another company (after the original company ended their business relations) to continue producing his product.

VS.

A company blatantly copying the design from another company with no common element other than the fact that both companies make knives.

Doesnt sound very similar to me if you take out names/emotions.

Quotes from Les and Mel themselves make it pretty clear to me neither one of them viewed the RSK MK1 a Benchmade or Mel design but in fact really viewed this knife as a creation of Doug himself.

Les noted, "I am very pleased that we have been able to combine Doug Ritter's considerable expertise and uncompromising standards together with Benchmade's world-class manufacturing capabilities to create this 'purpose driven' design collaboration. The resulting Doug Ritter RSK Mk1 is a no-nonsense tool ensuring the highest degree of survivability while in harm's way--and a smart value as well."

Said Mel, "after many years of discussions on the subject, it is a pleasure to see Doug's quest to create a practical survival folder with all the features he holds dear come to life by combining this classic blade shape he loves and top-notch steel with one of my most successful and well-received designs. The Griptilian® has so many subtle features built in to it that really show up when you actually use the knife; the response by the end user has been very gratifying."
 
I agree with whoever it was above that pointed out that the Freek uses the Ritter blade and the ritter knife uses the Griptilian handle.

Were you guys offended when Benchmade copied Ritter's blade for the Freek? If not, why the outrage over Doug copying Mel's handle?

My stance is that Mel, Benchmade, and Doug are all big boys who can take care of themselves. I wouldn't be surprised if all of them were laughing at the outrage displayed on this forum.
 
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