New Rules for the Exchange forum - Feedback thread.

[PeterPHWS]

If I understand that correctly, are you saying if a buyer doesn't pay for insurance and doesn't receive the knife he paid for, that is his responsibility?

I believe that is illegal anywhere in the world. If you tell the judge "He didn't pay for insurance so I don't have to deliver the knife he paid for" you will not get any sympathy from any judge anywhere.

Shipping insurance is for the benefit of the shipper (seller). He is the one who pays for insurance, who files a claim, and who gets paid the settlement, eventually. Insurance or the lack of it does not absolve him of the obligation to deliver what he's been paid for.

Cougar Allen is quite correct on this. The right way to word this is that the seller has to assume risk until the goods are delivered. Meaning the seller has to insure or if he does'nt and the knife is not delivered or lost .... it is his risk.

If the goods are paid for by paypal and the buyer advises he never received them he is entitled to a refund of the monies paid .... that is the cornerstone of the protection paypal offers.

A buyer is never liable for loss until the goods are in his hands. The threads where sellers say it is the buyers risk once posted are what are needed to be stopped.

 

[Spark]

If I understand that correctly, are you saying if a buyer doesn't pay for insurance and doesn't receive the knife he paid for, that is his responsibility?

I believe that is illegal anywhere in the world. If you tell the judge "He didn't pay for insurance so I don't have to deliver the knife he paid for" you will not get any sympathy from any judge anywhere.

Shipping insurance is for the benefit of the shipper (seller). He is the one who pays for insurance, who files a claim, and who gets paid the settlement, eventually. Insurance or the lack of it does not absolve him of the obligation to deliver what he's been paid for.

If the buyer specifically states that they don't want to have the item insured, and it gets lost / stolen / whatever, that's their problem. The seller, on the other hand, should want to insure the item regardless for their own protection. If the buyer stated they don't want insurance, documentation of that should provide some level of protection to the seller.

Aren't these 2 contradictory? We cannot discuss the item for sale in the thread, but if interested we're supposed to post in the thread?

There's a difference between "Oh hey this is cool, only 500 were made right?" and "Is this one of the serial numbered models?" Questions are allowed without penalty to the asker. Chatter isn't allowed, period. I'll update this to change "discuss" to "idly discuss" or something similar.

What was so wrong with the current system?

What was the big issue? If someone was dropping the price $10 a day and re-bumping people would notice and be turned off. I don't see the need for the new rules and I think that it will alienate some members.

The problems were repeated instances of "rules lawyering" and people trying to skirt the rules to make things go their way. I got fed up after having to read 20+ emails in one day from one particular individual trying to get over. Certain other aspects (new clarifications on memberships & such) have been a long time coming. These new rules are largely based upon the ones from AR15.com and identified existing problems here.

Does this mean that Dealers will have this right to exemption outside the Dealers' Exchange sub-forum also? This seems like it might be a fairly serious disadvantage to individuals listing in the Individual Exchange sub-forums...

If dealers are posting so many threads that it's overwhelming everyone else, we'll add additional rules. Honestly, if that's the case the dealers in question should be posting consolidated threads.

Are "Dealers" allowed to post in any Exchange Forum now, or just the "Dealers" forums?

We may be eliminating the dealer forums and combining them with the individual ones in the near future. Certain forums, IIRC the Busse For Sale one, requested specific Dealer posting allowances.

Ok, I am a platinum member but I also got into making sheaths recently. I mostly make sheaths for Busse knives. Can I still list them for sale in the Busse for sale section??

Yes, but you'll need a Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider membership.

I'm not sure this was covered in the revised rules but is it okay to have a link to your sales thread in your signature line?

No change from previous rules (yes, you can).

You might consider publicizing these new rules. I just happened to read it with other threads. I normally do not check the pinned threads at the top, so I would have missed it normally.

It's in the announcements at the top. A sitewide notice will be going up as well.

Just to make sure I am reading this right.
1). I make knife sheaths and I have a Knifemaker membership.

So unless I buy a dealer membership:
a). I must change my username?
b). I need to remove the link to my web site?
c). If someone posts that they like something I made, I cannot respond?
d). My sig has to go?
e). And I cannot mention my business in any way?

See the above description "KNIFEMAKER / CRAFTSMAN / SERVICE PROVIDER (hearafter referred to as "Knifemaker") - Knifemaker's are allowed to sell items that they have personally created or modified in the KnifeMaker For Sale forums, or their own Hosted KnifeMaker Forum. If you are a knifemaker and would like your own Hosted KnifeMaker Forum, please contact us."

I'll probably modify this to allow sales in Manufacturer-specific for sale forums.

Next group of answers will come up shortly.

 

[Spark]

Regarding 3.1.13.2 -
I agree with Morimotom on this, the no respond rule seems to be a little too harsh. If someone asks a question in a thread, and it happens to be on the first page already, I cannot see the purpose of waiting 72 hours to answer. It does not seem to be something that will benefit anyone (buyer or seller). I would agree, add as much info to the OP as possible, but something people come out with odd but pertinient questions, or sellers space out and leave out details.

We can issue warnings for a reason, but people continually bumping up their threads is what lead us to institute "no bumping" rules to begin with. The seller should edit their OP to reflect the question & answer, and would probably be smart to PM or otherwise message the potential buyer as well. No extra bumps, no people trying to skirt the rules.

13.1.13.4 -
If 72 hours have not passed since the last post by anyone, all questions should be addressed by email, private message, or editing previous posts ONLY.

This will be easier said than done by buyers, given th fact that it takes some time for new rules to break in and get accustomed to. It sounds more reasonable to be able to provide answers that might not be covered by the original post.

This rule applies to the sellers, not the buyers. Again, there'll be a break in period, as well as sitewide notifications. I'll edit it to make it more clear.

Cougar Allen makes a very valid point as well. We MUST use insurance or else? Wow.

Your choice. Whoever doesn't want insurance, however, is f'ed if it goes missing. If you can't insure something because the seller is in another country, I'd suggest using either a method that allows insurance (UPS, Fedex) or making sure that the funds are certified (cashier's check, money order, western union) as to prevent getting screwed if the item is lost, stolen, or seized in customs. As a buyer, I can't personally understand not wanting to pay money for insured shipping, but some people like to gamble. If that's the case, it's not the seller's fault if my stupidity causes a problem.

So I can't have a price in a trade ad, nor can I have both a for sale ad and a trade ad? In other words I can have trade options in for sale ads with my platinum membership, but not a price in a trade ad with any level of membership? I have no problem with that but I wish I could lock some ads now without bumping them and further violating the new rules.

This applies only to items in the trade forum, since non paying members were using it to try and sell their stuff.

This will probably be addressed with a new prefix set for thread titles in the For Sale forums - "For Sale" and "For Sale or Trade".

Cougar Allen is quite correct on this. The right way to word this is that the seller has to assume risk until the goods are delivered. Meaning the seller has to insure or if he does'nt and the knife is not delivered or lost .... it is his risk.

If the goods are paid for by paypal and the buyer advises he never received them he is entitled to a refund of the monies paid .... that is the cornerstone of the protection paypal offers.

A buyer is never liable for loss until the goods are in his hands. The threads where sellers say it is the buyers risk once posted are what are needed to be stopped.

Sellers have always assumed the risk unless the buyer specifically requested that no insurance be purchased. That's basic common sense, and has been our policy for as long as I can remember.

 

[Spark]

Original announcement updated with specified clarifications.

 

[DowntownDM]

my question was answered above, to my satisfaction. thanks.

 

[tundratrader]

I am one of the newer folks but, I really like the system of having separate dealer and individual for sale forums. I think it keeps everyone a little more honest and keeps the clutter down. Dealers are often able to beat the prices of individuals because they buy in volume or set the profit margins lower. The reverse is also true and newer people can be taken advantage of by this. I think it adds comfort to folks to pay the extra to a dealer and they assume they are getting a better deal. Having dealers mixed with regular folks selling the odd knife or two just causes chaos. I also think many of the collector folks belong in the dealer section based on the amount of knives they have for sale on a regular basis. This is how this site is paid for and maintained. For folks not to follow these rules is clear abuse of the system.

I think a system allowing folks to have 3-4 knives at the most for sale in the individual forum at the non dealer membership would be more than fair. If people are able to purchase, collect and sell 10 knives at a time they can surely pay for the dealer membership to support this wonderful site.

Zach

 

[Darkfin]

Regarding the insurance discussion, the Uniform Commercial Code says the following:

U.C.C. § 2-504. Shipment by Seller.

Where the seller is required or authorized to send the goods to the buyer and the contract does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, then unless otherwise agreed he must

(a) put the goods in the possession of such a carrier and make such a contract for their transportation as may be reasonable having regard to the nature of the goods and other circumstances of the case; and

(b) obtain and promptly deliver or tender in due form any document necessary to enable the buyer to obtain possession of the goods or otherwise required by the agreement or by usage of trade; and

(c) promptly notify the buyer of the shipment.

Failure to notify the buyer under paragraph (c) or to make a proper contract under paragraph (a) is a ground for rejection only if material delay or loss ensues.

*****

U.C.C. § 2-509. Risk of Loss in the Absence of Breach.

(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier

(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation;

I am not a lawyer so I may be taking something out of context, but it seems pretty clear that in this case, once the seller puts the item into the hands of USPS or UPS, etc (and presumably receives documentation proving it), his actual liability ends.

Paypal rules are stricter--they require that the seller indemnify the carrier, as they require the seller to provide proof of DELIVERY, not just proof of shipment. Thus if the USPS loses something paid for via (standard, not gift) Paypal, the SELLER is going to be on the hook for it, even if the seller can show proof of shipment. (Incidentally, Paypal also requires the seller to require a signature for any transaction greater than $250.)*

Thus, in the case of a Paypal transaction, it is always in the seller's best interest to spend a few dollars to get insurance, at least for domestic packages. International is a whole other (confusing & expensive) can of worms!

Just food for thought.

*ref. PayPal User Agreement §§ 11.3 & 13.6, Sept. 22, 2010

 

[Daniel]

I think a system allowing folks to have 3-4 knives at the most for sale in the individual forum at the non dealer membership would be more than fair. If people are able to purchase, collect and sell 10 knives at a time they can surely pay for the dealer membership to support this wonderful site.

Zach

No, not everyone who sells more than 5 knives at a time is a dealer. I am selling knives at more than 5 at a time, in some cases, to pay my bills. I am basically liquidating my collection. I lose money on most of them. I am not a dealer. I am unemployed, so selling knives is basically survival.

 

[JTR357]

If I understand that correctly, are you saying if a buyer doesn't pay for insurance and doesn't receive the knife he paid for, that is his responsibility?

I believe that is illegal anywhere in the world. If you tell the judge "He didn't pay for insurance so I don't have to deliver the knife he paid for" you will not get any sympathy from any judge anywhere.

Shipping insurance is for the benefit of the shipper (seller). He is the one who pays for insurance, who files a claim, and who gets paid the settlement, eventually. Insurance or the lack of it does not absolve him of the obligation to deliver what he's been paid for.

Yea,I still don't get this part even after the second explanation.I've always bought the insurance whether I was buying or selling.Sometimes when I was selling & the item was $50 or under,I'd take a chance,knowing full well,if it got 'lost',I'd be responsible for getting my buyer his money back.Insurance just needs to be included with the price,by the seller.

 

[DowntownDM]

For whatever it's worth - I agree that high volume sellers/flippers (whatever the metric for 'high volume' ends up being) are essentially dealers and ought to be in a dedicated dealer section (including those who participate in the Busse sales sub forum).

 

[Steven65]

Thank you Spark and the whole gang for the new selling rules I am sure that they will make our trading here on BF even more fun and safe than it is..........:thumbup:

My question with reference to buyers........

Do not post "mail sent" or other similar replies to ads.

I often do this and then send a PM stating I will buy the item if the seller ships internationally.
I do this because it gives the seller a chance to decline if he does not want to ship outside the CONUS without cluttering his thread with declined "I'll take it" posts

Should I rather in the future say something like......

"I'll take it if you ship internationally.......PM to follow"

Thanks
Steven

 

[not2sharp]

Yea,I still don't get this part even after the second explanation.I've always bought the insurance whether I was buying or selling.Sometimes when I was selling & the item was $50 or under,I'd take a chance,knowing full well,if it got 'lost',I'd be responsible for getting my buyer his money back.Insurance just needs to be included with the price,by the seller.

I usually ship insured; but, insurance is not always available (especially internationally), and I have had a few buyers who insist on setting up their own shipping arraignment (the buyer supplies the Fedex/UPS/DHL shipping labels).

n2s

 

[Soulrack223]

....
This applies only to items in the trade forum, since non paying members were using it to try and sell their stuff.

This will probably be addressed with a new prefix set for thread titles in the For Sale forums - "For Sale" and "For Sale or Trade".

....

This is great and addresses my only concern with the new rules.
Thank you, Carlos

 

[Soulrack223]

For whatever it's worth - I agree that high volume sellers/flippers (whatever the metric for 'high volume' ends up being) are essentially dealers and ought to be in a dedicated dealer section (including those who participate in the Busse sales sub forum).

It will be very, very interesting to see how this is inforced in the Busse for sale forum.

Is the guy who only goes to Knob Creek going to be allowed to flip while the guy who goes to every show to buy and flip Busses be barred from the Busse for sale forum and relegated to a dealer for sale forum only?

What about a guy who buys, for example, 3 DSSF (or 2 SFNO LEs) for the discount with the intent to sell 2 (1). Is he a flipper? Or just the guy who buys 2-4 of everything to mark-up 20-40%?

 

[Whiskey River]

Spark!

Ok, so I will upgrade to Knife Maker level..... in that level can I still have the avatar with my logo and a signature line with my web site listed?

 

[Cougar Allen]

If the buyer stated they don't want insurance, documentation of that should provide some level of protection to the seller.

Don't take my word for it, talk to your lawyers. I predict they'll tell you it doesn't provide any protection to the seller.

As a buyer, I can't personally understand not wanting to pay money for insured shipping,

Once again, only sellers can buy insurance. Whether it makes more sense to self-insure or to buy insurance and pay an insurance company for the risk plus profit depends on a number of factors. Some knife dealers refuse to insure shipments under any circumstances, saying experience has shown them it is impossible to make a successful insurance claim, or if it is possible it takes more time than the payoff is worth. (Talk to Fred at Knife Outlet.) In order to make a successful claim you have to show the knife wasn't damaged or missing when you sent the package and it wasn't damaged or lost because you packaged it inadequately, and you need proof of the value. Convincing them they should pay you is not all that easy. Even if they do eventually pay you it is likely to take hours hassling with them plus weeks of waiting.

Buying insurance might make sense if you're sending something really expensive. For most of the transactions on Bladeforums, it's debatable at best. Often the whole idea would be ridiculous. Should I insure my $4 bracelets or should I self-insure and absorb the cost if one goes missing? If I try to push the burden off onto my buyers and tell them if they don't pay for insurance I don't have to send them anything and I can keep their money, that's not going to work. (That's below the minimum even for small claims court, but even if I didn't care about keeping my integrity I wouldn't be willing to sell my reputation that cheap. Of course, some people don’t have any integrity or reputation to lose….)

U.C.C. § 2-509. Risk of Loss in the Absence of Breach.

(1) Where the contract requires or authorizes the seller to ship the goods by carrier

(a) if it does not require him to deliver them at a particular destination, the risk of loss passes to the buyer when the goods are duly delivered to the carrier even though the shipment is under reservation;

You can make a legal contract that only requires the seller to deliver to the carrier, but the seller had better be prepared with good evidence that the knife wasn't missing or damaged or inadequately packaged -- see above about making an insurance claim; it's the same kind of situation.

That kind of contract could make sense for an international shipment.

Years of reading TGB&U has made me very familiar with disputes like the currently active thread Bad - Verpus77. You never have to look far back in the thread list to find one like that. If it isn't on the first page it'll be on the second or third. That’s the kind of dispute you have to think about when you make the rules, because that’s the kind of dispute that’s always going on. It's always the same excuses -- "He didn't want insurance," "Now he's gone public with this I'm not even going to refund half his money," "It's not inadequate packaging to stuff a heavy fixed-blade knife in an envelope," etc. I hear the same excuses when I sit in the audience at District Court. “The insurance will pay for it – or if he didn’t have insurance that’s his problem.” I wonder what thieves and vandals and idiots said before insurance was invented....

 

[riz_aaroni]

Thank you for the link Cougar Allen. The thread definitely makes sense as to why you would insure anything you shipped, that and properly package it. I think JTR357 makes a good point of this:

The buyer's responsibility:To get the money to the seller

The seller's responsibility:To get the item to the buyer

In the simplest of terms, the seller just needs to get the knife to the buyer. The few bucks can save a lot of headaches and keep the exchange forums a safe place to buy/sell.

 

[glockman99]

Makes sense.

But what about:


Are we supposed to send all questions to the seller directly then they're supposed to put the Q&A in the original post? Or does this mean don't talk unless you're interested in buying or clarifying something that would help you make up your mind?

Email is your friend, and might keep (you) for receiving an infraction. When in doubt, email.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Thank you for the link Cougar Allen. The thread definitely makes sense as to why you would insure anything you shipped,

Insurance would not have helped Verpus77. Packaging is the responsibility of the person who does it -- insurance would have refused the claim.

that and properly package it. I think JTR357 makes a good point of this:



In the simplest of terms, the seller just needs to get the knife to the buyer. The few bucks can save a lot of headaches and keep the exchange forums a safe place to buy/sell.

 

[KeithAM]

I like the recommendation that for sale threads should be locked once the knife is sold. In fact, I think it should be mandatory. It's simple, and keeps dead threads from being bumped up.