New US Ban on Sale of Elephant Ivory

That's probably one of many imponderables at this point - though I would imagine any such transaction, if put under enforcement scrutiny, would need to bear the weight of significant investigation.
 
TAH said:
Thanks Mike. For some reason, I am overlooking where it says June. Can you or someone point me in the right direction?
Click to expand...

The June date was information I received from David Warther, one of the largest dealers of Pre ban in the states. One of the comments he made during our conversation today was his sales for ivory has gone through the roof. It seems that people want the ivory in their possession while it's still legal to purchase. Most of the sales were for scales to be used on knives.
 
Mark Knapp said:
I think all legitimate ivory will be OK. This is a ban on the Sale of post ban ivory. Or I should say, a strengthening of the existing ban.
Click to expand...

Mark,

Unfortunately, I have no documentation that my ivory is legal because I'm an old collector and all of my knives were purchased in the 80s through early 90s. There were no documentations or certificates available back then. It wasn't even a thought. Heck, half of the knifemakers of my knives are deceased.


Thank Mike for the June info!
 
I think we can keep it open. We do have to hold the political frustrations down. But if new information or questions come up, this is the best place for them.
 
Mark, I believe that the ban, as now apparently contemplated, is more expansive than you might think with respect to elephant ivory. I would suggest everyone read the link entitled "Document" in John White's opening post. And for additional clarification, a link within that opened document will take the reader to "National Strategy..."

A comprehensive reading of both documents will likely answer many reader questions.
 
Last edited:
Lorien said:
I am uncomfortable with this forum becoming home to political debate as well.

At this point, I'd suggest that this thread disappear, and that the core information that collectors and makers need to know be stickied in a locked thread.
Click to expand...

:thumbdn:

Why should the thread be locked or disappear? What a terrible suggestion. I think this is an excellent forum for collectors, dealers, and makers to discuss what their personal plans are to deal with this new law.

First, I want to thank John for posting this and convey my tremendous respect for the way it appears he plans to address this. :thumbup: Unfortunately, I doubt that too many other makers will be doing the same.

Personally, I only have four pre-ban elephant ivory pieces, and only one of them was very expensive, and I doubt I would ever be selling them anyway, so it is not a tremendous issue for me. It will be a problem for my heirs, and of course I would like to avoid that, but at this point I am not sure there are any good options because none of these knives were made by John :(. Hey, maybe I will live long enough to see elephants removed from the endangered species list. :) I am old enough to remember when products made with American alligator were banned, but the American alligator was removed from the endangered species list more than a quarter century ago now. I realize that these are very different animals in very different places . . . but things change, and I think it is possible that the elephant may someday have a resurgence given enough time.

I have many more pieces with mammoth ivory and walrus ivory, and it does concern me that they might be swept up by some overzealous eager beaver. However, unless I am mistaken, I believe the "authorities" would have the burden of proving that it is elephant ivory in the first place . . . which they could not do. However once they confiscate something, I imagine it could be expensive and difficult to get it back. :mad:

I guess we will all have to see how that part plays out. But personally, I am going to be limiting all future purchases that have ANY kind of ivory to pieces that exhibit a LOT of colors like browns, greens, blues, and look nothing like the typical white or yellowish elephant ivory. And I suspect I will be buying a lot fewer of those pieces, too.
 
Mike Quesenberry said:
The June date was information I received from David Warther, one of the largest dealers of Pre ban in the states. One of the comments he made during our conversation today was his sales for ivory has gone through the roof. It seems that people want the ivory in their possession while it's still legal to purchase. Most of the sales were for scales to be used on knives.
Click to expand...

This report from David Warther goes back to my earlier question that might have been overlooked.

TAH said:
What does this do to ivory handled knife values from now until June? Do they increase because this is the buyer's last opportunity or do they decrease because buyers think they will be stuck with the knife forever?
Click to expand...

I would like to have some thoughts or discussion on this question. Thanks!
 
TAH said:
Mark,

Unfortunately, I have no documentation that my ivory is legal because I'm an old collector and all of my knives were purchased in the 80s through early 90s. There were no documentations or certificates available back then. It wasn't even a thought. Heck, half of the knifemakers of my knives are deceased.


Thank Mike for the June info!
Click to expand...

The ones sold to you before 1990, (if they have African ivory) are not a problem. It's not hard to document a knife you bought in the 80's. I think that people are envisioning a witch hunt that is not going to happen. The USF&W service has better things to do than worry about where the ivory on a twenty year old knife came from (I hope). I have paper work on all the white ivory I have bought, people knew it was a smart thing to do in 2000, the first year I bought some. I think and hope other suppliers and makers were doing the same thing.
 
Mark Knapp said:
The ones sold to you before 1990, (if they have African ivory) are not a problem. It's not hard to document a knife you bought in the 80's.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Mark, I'm not following you. Why would this not be a problem? How is it not hard to document a knife purchased in the 80s. I have no "official" documentation and in most cases, not even a receipt. Back then, it was simply a gentleman's agreement. You give cash to a knifemaker, he gives you a knife, you shake hands, and you part as friends. USF&W wouldn't know when the knife was made or if it was re-handled in elephant ivory post 1990.
 
Let me re-post some current information that may help owners of Pre-Ban items.

It now appears that only sales of Elephant ivory products will be targeted. Private possession of Pre-Ban items will not prohibited, and heirloom items can be passed on to relatives in wills.

Sales, however, even of previously legal items will be prohibited without "documentation." What that means should become clearer as rules are made and published. If you own it now, you can keep it.

However, the proposed enforcement actions against unlawful sales look to be extremely serious. This will be of particular concern to makers, as "trafficking" in prohibited items can lead to massive penalties, if the methods used in other federal and state prohibitions are followed.

Follow this link for enforcement type info.

It is for this reason that I will no longer be using any Elephant Ivory in my knife making, as such knives can not be sold across state lines, regardless of documentation.

Again, clients who have Pre-Ban handled knives from me can contact me about their status, and if desired, we can plan re-handling. Each of my knives came with documentation of build date, and I keep records with photos and dates. I can replace lost documentation. This may, repeat, may allow re-sale of my Pre-Ban knives, but we'll have to wait and see.

This, of course, will not be necessary for those who plan to hold onto a John White knife til they die, and then pass it on to their knife fanatic heirs!

John
 
Last edited:
Ken, since you asked;

-I suggested making THIS thread disappear. The last time this particular topic came up a few weeks back, things got heavy and the thread inexplicably vanished, and I mean it totally disappeared. Completely and with no explanation.

-because this ivory law is an important topic to custom knives in a general and pragmatic sense, the solution I suggested in my post was to make a new, stickied thread, that would be locked so that updates regarding the law and its implications could be made without the possibility of politics ruining the content

-when politics enters a thread so early, like on the first page, that doesn't bode well for the quality of the thread overall. I won't be surprised when or if this thread needs to be locked. I will most certainly have nothing to do with that, as I don't have much to add to this discussion and won't continue to add any more to it than I already have


Guys, I have zero problem with you all disagreeing with my comments. I make lots of them, and for the most part, they are not particularly meaningful or world changing.

I have absolutely no control, or power, over what happens in or to this thread. I do have a problem with people spouting off on their political tirades in C&H in a general sense, which the forum rules completely back me up on. I hope that anyone who feels a need to step over that line reconsiders, putting the well being of this forum above their political views. I personally try very hard to keep my politics out of my posts in here, and I know for sure that many of you ought to be thankful for that :)

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
 
TAH said:
Sorry, Mark, I'm not following you. Why would this not be a problem? How is it not hard to document a knife purchased in the 80s. I have no "official" documentation and in most cases, not even a receipt. Back then, it was simply a gentleman's agreement. You give cash to a knifemaker, he gives you a knife, you shake hands, and you part as friends. USF&W wouldn't know when the knife was made or if it was re-handled in elephant ivory post 1990.
Click to expand...

I see your points, and I understand your concern. I'm just saying that it's easy to get worked up about these things. It's going to boil down to what "demonstrate" means. With pre-ban walrus ivory an affidavit from a prior owner serves the purpose.

If you have a knife you bought after 1990 and the maker is still alive it should not be hard to get him to write you a letter telling you where he got the ivory. I have asked widows and offspring to find information about a particular knife or piece of ivory. Maybe I am different, but I can tell you where all the white ivory I have came from. We really don't buy that much and it's easy to remember, and I have the documentation.

If you want to sell a knife you bought before the ban, I don't think you will have a problem demonstrating how old the knife is. In just a few minutes on the internet you can find out about even some pretty obscure knife makers, when they were making a particular knife and when they quit making. I don't know what makers you own, but I would think it wouldn't be that hard.
 
Last edited:
Mark, Thank you for your common sense. I see no reason for panic. If you are first owner you can document items yourself and I think that will be sufficient. If original owner has died most things can be recorded this way. Unless you have a pile of elephant tusks in your basement.
 
betzner said:
Mark, I believe that the ban, as now apparently contemplated, is more expansive than you might think with respect to elephant ivory. I would suggest everyone read the link entitled "Document" in John White's opening post. And for additional clarification, a link within that opened document will take the reader to "National Strategy..."

A comprehensive reading of both documents will likely answer many reader questions.
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob, I have read it and I am still not that alarmed, as I said, it will boil down to what "demonstrate" means. I have been around the law enforcement community a little bit, they watch me an all ivory dealers pretty closely. The last thing they want to do is worry about where the ivory on a knife built 20 years ago came from. I would not sell one overseas or bring elephant ivory to any shows for a while, till we find out the implications of this. I have a call into a USF&W guy to see if he can tell me how they are going to enforce this, I'm supposed to hear back from him on Friday. I will let you all know what he says. The wheels of government roll slowly so we may not know anything right away.
 
gthouse said:
Mark, Thank you for your common sense. I see no reason for panic. If you are first owner you can document items yourself and I think that will be sufficient. If original owner has died most things can be recorded this way. Unless you have a pile of elephant tusks in your basement.
Click to expand...

You want to sell those sixty pounders, we only have a little more time, they should go real cheap now.:D:D:D
 
I find this very interesting and alarming as I have a 300.00 piece of walrus waiting on a blade , mark do you have anything proving what you have is artifact? I just can't believe they would go after artifact material
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top