New US Ban on Sale of Elephant Ivory

Mark Knapp said:
I have asked widows and offspring to find information about a particular knife or piece of ivory....

If you want to sell a knife you bought before the ban, I don't think you will have a problem demonstrating how old the knife is. In just a few minutes on the internet you can find out about even some pretty obscure knife makers, when they were making a particular knife and when they quit making. I don't know what makers you own, but I would think it wouldn't be that hard.
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Thanks Mark. I hope you're right, but I'm just skeptical that USF&W would accept a "letter" from a widow that says the ivory that was used by her deceased husband was purchased in the 80s...and that's all it would take. To me, that's just taking somebody's word for it. It's not an "official" document.

A few of my knives were made by George Herron and Ted Dowell, who made the same type of stuff for their entire career starting in the 70s into the 2000s.

Thanks again for all your comments. They are sincerely appreciated.
 
The answer is for all those that want elephant ivory is to go shoot one with a cities permit than you can legally bring the ivory back to the US and make all the handles you want with it :)

In all seriousness

At least the ban is recognizing legally harvested cities permitted ivory as legal to own and from what I am reading legal to import

That is a good thing for the elephants and still gives the animal a worth for the people that are actually in care of them
 
The good news in this ruling is that Mammoth Ivory has escaped being classified along with Elephant as a prohibited item. This may have been in part because of input from artisans and collectors to the advisory committee.

For collectors who currently own Pre-Ban items, the good news is that ownership and inheritance is still protected, as is sale within your home state, with documentation.

For makers, Mammoth and Ancient Walrus will have to be the primary source of ivory. The prohibition of sale across state line, of even documented Elephant Ivory, would mean for me in Florida, no going to Atlanta with a knife, or sale to anyone without a legal Florida residence.

We'll have to see how enforcement rules are written, but for now, that's what it looks like to me.

I hope those who have commented, and reached out to the F&W Service will continue to keep us informed.

Thanks to all who are participating in this information effort.

John
 
John White said:
For collectors who currently own Pre-Ban items, the good news is that ownership and inheritance is still protected, as is sale within your home state, with documentation.

The prohibition of sale across state line, of even documented Elephant Ivory, would mean for me in Florida, no going to Atlanta with a knife, or sale to anyone without a legal Florida residence.
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John,

To confirm, even if you have documented elephant ivory, it will only be legal to sell it within your state of residence?

ETA: Never mind. I see where it is stated in the Fed's document.
 
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TAH said:
Thanks Mark. I hope you're right, but I'm just skeptical that USF&W would accept a "letter" from a widow that says the ivory that was used by her deceased husband was purchased in the 80s...and that's all it would take. To me, that's just taking somebody's word for it. It's not an "official" document.

A few of my knives were made by George Herron and Ted Dowell, who made the same type of stuff for their entire career starting in the 70s into the 2000s.

Thanks again for all your comments. They are sincerely appreciated.
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We will have to see what comes down, in many cases there were no official government documents so that will not be the only thing they can expect to see. All I can tell you is my personal experience. Your two makers that made the same knife their whole careers (personal note-boring:D) aught to be able to tell you where they got their materials)

Affidavits should include any pertinent info about the material, dates it was collected, circumstances surrounding the collection of material ie: an estate sale or auction he attended. Name, contact info and signature of the "witness".

These things have to be the real deal, they can't be faked. If my providers can't obtain something like this I walk away. I understand you are dealing with it after the fact, it may restrict what you are able to do with some of your knives.
 
John White said:
For collectors who currently own Pre-Ban items, the good news is that ownership and inheritance is still protected, as is sale within your home state, with documentation.

For makers, Mammoth and Ancient Walrus will have to be the primary source of ivory. The prohibition of sale across state line, of even documented Elephant Ivory, would mean for me in Florida, no going to Atlanta with a knife, or sale to anyone without a legal Florida residence.

We'll have to see how enforcement rules are written, but for now, that's what it looks like to me.



John
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John, for ivory and other whale parts that have a "no interstate commerce" restriction, the prohibition means that I cannot accept money for it through the mail or Paypal, and then send it to another state. I can sell it to a customer that travels to Alaska from Florida and he can bring it home. Or, I can bring it to a show in Atlanta and sell it there. Maybe, hopefully, it will be the same with elephant ivory. I'm trying to figure out how we can influence some of these decisions that have not been made yet. I will let you all know what I find out.
 
Mark Knapp said:
Your two makers that made the same knife their whole careers (personal note-boring:D) aught to be able to tell you where they got their materials
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They're both deceased. (personal note-perhaps boring, but beautiful;))


Mark Knapp said:
I understand you are dealing with it after the fact, it may restrict what you are able to do with some of your knives.
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Especially after discovering that even with documentation, it will be illegal to sell them out of state. That kind of cuts down the market. :rolleyes:
 
TAH said:
They're both deceased. (personal note-perhaps boring, but beautiful;))




Especially after discovering that even with documentation, it will be illegal to sell them out of state. That kind of cuts down the market. :rolleyes:
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I'm sure they are beautiful, I would get bored making the same knife my whole career. Check my note about interstate sales.
 
Doug C said:
Monocrom,

As much as I agree with you, as John already mentioned please leave the political bs out of this thread.

Doug
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Just an honest observation. No politics involved at all. It's nice that some members can tell the difference.

John White mentioned that the wording of the ban came out of the White House. Does that fact automatically make this a politics discussion? Of course not. If it did, the moderators would likely have locked it as soon as they saw it.

Reminds me of the time some guy thought I was being racist because I said to a buddy that I was in the mood for chicken for lunch. By the way, the guy who got ticked off at me was White. Go figure. :rolleyes:
 
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Are you all sure this doesn't go in effect until June. I just finished a frame handle fighter with Elephant Ivory 2 weeks ago for the Arkansas show and I'd sure like to know if I can take it or not.

Bill
 
Mark,

That would indeed put another face on the future sale of "Pre-Ban" elephant. We will all be interested in rule interpretations. Again, I look forward to this or another thread keeping us informed.

John
Mark Knapp said:
John, for ivory and other whale parts that have a "no interstate commerce" restriction, the prohibition means that I cannot accept money for it through the mail or Paypal, and then send it to another state. I can sell it to a customer that travels to Alaska from Florida and he can bring it home. Or, I can bring it to a show in Atlanta and sell it there. Maybe, hopefully, it will be the same with elephant ivory. I'm trying to figure out how we can influence some of these decisions that have not been made yet. I will let you all know what I find out.
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B . Buxton said:
Are you all sure this doesn't go in effect until June. I just finished a frame handle fighter with Elephant Ivory 2 weeks ago for the Arkansas show and I'd sure like to know if I can take it or not.

Bill
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Bill, I have a meeting on Fri. I will try to figure out how and when some of this will be enforced, I will keep you posted.

In the mean time, can you contact your provider and get some paperwork on your ivory? Even your receipt that says "pre-ban elephant ivory" would be helpful. Then it would be up to your provider to show origin, if someone wants to follow a paper trail.
 
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Hello Friends,

I empathize with folks' concern. My bladesmithing hobby efforts and school teacher wages are small potatoes for sure, nevertheless I have a bit of dough invested in ancient walrus ivory and a few pairs of mammoth scales. (I decided some years back to steer away from elephant material.) I am hopeful the ancient and fossil ivory will continue to remain acceptable for use in the years to come.

When I got wind of this I decided I better document my stuff. I recently searched through sale threads and emails for my purchases. I downloaded and printed out what I could. (Thanks for leaving the photos up guys!) I plan to cross reference with what receipts I can round up to keep copies with the material.

I know it's not elephant ivory, but like some folks have mentioned, it won't hurt to be able to prove it!

Aloha, Phil
 
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Thanks, John, for starting this thread and to Mark and others that have chimed in with relevant information. I hadn't heard anything on this issue for a while and was wondering how things presently stood. It's good news at least that ancient walrus and mammoth ivory don't appear to be included, but what a mess for elephant ivory. You'd think at least current stocks would be grandfathered in. I suppose the main reason is to facilitate ease of enforcement, but it will be a nightmare for enforcement any way you look at it. Seems like the real effort should be focused on imports rather than diluting LE efforts already stretched thin by confiscating one pair of knife scales (or pistol grips) at a time. Sort of a low benefit to cost ratio to say the least.

Water under the bridge... I certainly agree with Mark that it will take time to sort out all of the fine points and implications. It seems like one of the major questions is whether there is still opportunity to provide input on regs and their implementation, especially regarding documentation and any uncertainties on walrus and mammoth ivory. Another question possibly worth considering is, if a client owns documented ivory, can he/she provide that ivory to a maker and not have it considered as a purchase from the (out of state) maker of the knife that incorporates it? Can I have a knife made using a sperm whale tooth I've owned since 1969 (but for which I have no written documentation)?

I really look forward to hearing from Mark after his consultation with USFWS agents this Friday.
 
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