New US Ban on Sale of Elephant Ivory

[Mark Knapp]

A couple of stories seem to be popping up this week.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dougban...-ivory-rules-put-elephants-at-increased-risk/


http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-elephant-ivory-20140212,0,7418233.story#axzz2tjPRE1hT

Although all the news stories seem to be appearing only recently, the initial executive order forming the basis dates back to last July (see Executive Order below):

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2013-07-05/pdf/2013-16387.pdf

Thanks Bob and Bobby, good stuff there.

 

[Mark Knapp]

OK, I just got off the phone with my friendly neighborhood lawyer. Here's what I learned

The executive order changes nothing without law. It can change regulation, but it can't do that without legislative authority He/They must sight which legislation gives the authority for regulations to be changed. It has to be listed in the Federal Register.

There has to be a public comment period. At that time I suggest we hire a lawyer to state our case, enlist the help of The Ivory Education Institute" the custom cue makers, duck and turkey call guys, pen turners, wine stopper makers, musical instrument makers etc. as well as contacting all of our legislators.

My lawyer thinks we have a pretty good chance of getting this stuff reeled back quite a bit. I am not an elephant ivory dealer, the reason I am as active as I am is because I think it's the right thing to do and I think the elephant ivory thing was the easiest thing to attack, it sets a bad precedent and it's only the beginning. I can't afford to do all of this on my own. So for it's on me, but I will need help when, the time comes, to organize and raise funds if you want me to do it.

 

[John White]

Mark,

Thanks for taking a lead in this discussion. As things begin to shake out , I hope we can all continue to inform, be informed, and hopefully, begin to take some action.

Developments in the area of wildlife preservation are not limited to the US, and this perhaps well intentioned, but counter-productive "ban mentality" is paralleled overseas.

As the US and other countries try to do something about the China-led illegal trade, the desire to do something at home will not go away. Maybe we can influence what is done here, if we keep our attention on developments.

John

 

[Mark Knapp]

Mark,

Thanks for taking a lead in this discussion. As things begin to shake out , I hope we can all continue to inform, be informed, and hopefully, begin to take some action.

Developments in the area of wildlife preservation are not limited to the US, and this perhaps well intentioned, but counter-productive "ban mentality" is paralleled overseas.

As the US and other countries try to do something about the China-led illegal trade, the desire to do something at home will not go away. Maybe we can influence what is done here, if we keep our attention on developments.

John

Yep..

 

[betzner]

I can't afford to do all of this on my own. So for it's on me, but I will need help when, the time comes, to organize and raise funds if you want me to do it.

Seems like the CKCA might be able to contribute significantly to the funding you might need, Mark? I would think this would be a great time to lend some financial assistance to such an effort. Maybe they will help.

 

[sheathmaker]

OK,

I can't afford to do all of this on my own. So for it's on me, but I will need help when, the time comes, to organize and raise funds if you want me to do it.

I don't use ivory, Elephant or otherwise, but many of my good buddies do, so I'M IN…….. $, time, whatever you think I can do.

Paul

 

[jeffsaul]

To all concerned, I am simply a knife collector who loves ivory. That being said, I do not support government intrusion nor do I support killing Elephants simply for their tusks. I am more than willing to help support this action against these liberal fools!
Jeff

 

[2knife]

How about the Crown Jewels, many of which were obtained during the era of slavery and colonialism. I would love to know what the folks who dug up stuff like the Cullinan diamond or the Star of India sapphire were paid and whether India or South Africa might want some of that stuff back. How about all of those fancy old buildings? What kind of labor built them? How much of the money that went into building a bradn spanking new palace like Buckingham came from profits made in ventures out there in the empire, including the ivory trade? Question like that became even more interesting if you look at stuff built say in Brussels in the mid to late 1900's where the king personally owned what is today the Republic of Congo (former Zaire) and he made enough on ivory, rubber and genocide to build himself a little vacation cottage in the south of France that recently went on the market for over $500 MILLION among other things. Perhaps we should demand that most of the north side of Brussels be torn down because it was arguably built with that blood money.!!!!

African elephants are being poached into extinction. That is difference. Your observations are valid but they arent significant to this problem.
David

 

[Mark Knapp]

How about the Crown Jewels, many of which were obtained during the era of slavery and colonialism. I would love to know what the folks who dug up stuff like the Cullinan diamond or the Star of India sapphire were paid and whether India or South Africa might want some of that stuff back. How about all of those fancy old buildings? What kind of labor built them? How much of the money that went into building a bradn spanking new palace like Buckingham came from profits made in ventures out there in the empire, including the ivory trade? Question like that became even more interesting if you look at stuff built say in Brussels in the mid to late 1900's where the king personally owned what is today the Republic of Congo (former Zaire) and he made enough on ivory, rubber and genocide to build himself a little vacation cottage in the south of France that recently went on the market for over $500 MILLION among other things. Perhaps we should demand that most of the north side of Brussels be torn down because it was arguably built with that blood money.!!!!

African elephants are being poached into extinction. That is difference. Your observations are valid but they arent significant to this problem.
David

Please guys, lets stay on the subject. No one here wants to see elephants get poached to extinction. I would rather see American resources used to actually help solve the problem instead of the institution of regulations that can do nothing but make people feel like they are helping, and in actuality changing nothing in Africa. Especially if those who are against the ownership of ivory, those that feel the strongest about this, give up nothing. It's easy to make sacrifices when it's someone else making them. (not directed at you personally, David)

It would be interesting to see some ideas about how we can actually make a difference in Africa, maybe this is not the place, but I have some ideas.

 

[Mark Knapp]

To all concerned, I am simply a knife collector who loves ivory. That being said, I do not support government intrusion nor do I support killing Elephants simply for their tusks. I am more than willing to help support this action against these liberal fools!
Jeff

Please try not to use terms like these, it steps on peoples toes. I believe we can all work together to solve these problems without making inflammatory statements and without taking away peoples rights and privileges, as well as personal property.

 

[Steven65]

My lawyer thinks we have a pretty good chance of getting this stuff reeled back quite a bit. I am not an elephant ivory dealer, the reason I am as active as I am is because I think it's the right thing to do and I think the elephant ivory thing was the easiest thing to attack, it sets a bad precedent and it's only the beginning. I can't afford to do all of this on my own. So for it's on me, but I will need help when, the time comes, to organize and raise funds if you want me to do it.

Mark, good for you for taking this on. You are to be commended.

It is a shame that the entire process of Ivory is so misunderstood. Indeed if people bothered to find out the facts rather than just having a knee jerk re-action, the problem of selling legal ivory items within the US would never be an issue.

When you have your organisation up and running open a Paypal account for it and let us all know, I will give you a donation.

I wish you all the best with it.

Steven

 

[jdm61]

I was originally talking about the future heir to the throne of the United Kingdom and a multi-billion dollar fortune talking about destroying over 1000 art objects because they are now politically incorrect. I don't see poached ivory as being a problem in the US because very few if any people would actually buy it for "local" consumption. Destroying a 120 year old Steinway grand piano or an ancient carving of the god Vishnu will not save any elephants today. I am not trying to make this thread political and I apologize if I have, but knife makers and collectors to use ANYTHING that can be called ivory have to be aware that there are MANY people out there who think that you are a bad person and as such, should have your stuff taken away.

African elephants are being poached into extinction. That is difference. Your observations are valid but they arent significant to this problem.
David

 

[Mark Knapp]

I think that when a problem needs solving, if you don't like the way things are going, you should come back with some possible solutions instead of just trying to tear down the other side.

This is not a political statement, it's not about Dem's and Rep's, or a particular administration. It's about all of us.

When we care enough about something we do something. We send the UN into war torn countries, we send the Peace Corp to teach people to feed themselves, we send aid to storm ravaged countries, we send the Red Cross, Doctors Without Borders, Love Boats with hospitals on board, we put air marshals in jetliners. When we really care we DO something.

When we don't care enough we change the laws, we make law abiding people into criminals. We take away rights, privileges and private property of hard working, law abiding citizens. We enact laws that admittedly do not do anything to fix the problem, all they do is make people that feel helpless, feel like they are doing something, like in the fight against violent crime or the struggle to stop the horrific slaughter of elephants and rhinos in Africa. We divide into factions, the right and the left, the right and the wrong, and fight among ourselves instead of working together to fix a problem. And nothing actually changes at ground zero, only we are less free people.

If we really care enough we need to DO something to fix this problem. If we take away the rights, privileges and personal property of half of us, we are never going to be able to work together to fix this problem. It's going to take all of us to fix this.

I would like to propose, we work together and do something. Some African Countries have solved the poaching problem, the ones that haven't have proven they lack the desire to do it. We are not going to fix it by changing laws here in the U.S. but we could declare sanctions against the countries that allow it. We could form volunteer organizations to help countries that want to, fight the slaughter. We could create aide organizations like The Peace Corp to go in and solve problems. We can put trained veterans (that want to) coming home to high unemployment and drones to work. We have all kinds of volunteer groups that go all over the world to make a difference with other groups from all over the world.

 

[Mark Knapp]

Having problem loading my whole thought from above, will see if I can get it through. Now I got it.

We have all kinds of volunteer groups that go all over the world into dangerous places to make a difference with other groups from all over the world. Why not Africa.

Do you know some countries in Africa allow hunts for elephants and rhinos with tranquilizer darts, the hunter (with large cajones) pay a lot of money for the privilege, the money is used for conversation. How about if, while the animal was down, veterinarians implant GPS transmitters with mortality signals (we do it with virtually every other animal in the world). Enforcement could be on the spot in minutes. It seems we're going to have a lot of spare helicopters and drones around. Maybe some Navy Seals that feel strongly enough to help, will be ready for the next deployment.

If we take all the money we spend, and are going to spend, on restricting the flow of ivory from animals that died thirty years ago and used it, with money from paying hunters, donations and volunteers we could actually make a difference.

You might say I have a wild imagination, this is stuff from the movies, maybe you're right, but we do all these things already for things we care enough about. It doesn't take any imagination to do it the way we are doing it now. In the end, if there are no elephants and rhinos, and the next species is next, and we have no rights and privileges or personal property that isn't made of plastic or steel, we cannot say "we did all we could do" if we follow the strategy before us.

 

[The Shadow]

Mark .... you are to be commended for your efforts re: this important issue. If the new regulations (based on the proposed restrictions) are written and imposed, it will increase poaching significantly. Isn't this the real issue ? We the people can have a positive impact toward a favorable conclusion.

Mark, you can count me in !

JR

 

[Rhinoknives1]

All things of (real tangible) value, you must not be allowed to own, you must only consume. It seems to be the trend with everything. If it can't be consumed, it is banned or regulated out of commerce.

I hate that they are expanding their efforts, despite the fact EVERYONE knows Americans are not killing African and Asian Elephants.

Ron,
Its my understanding that the USA is the second largest destination for poached elephant ivory. China is the biggest but we are still no2.

I am not saying that any knife makers here on this forum are knowingly buying poached and chemically aged ivory.
There are certain ethnic groups that live here in the USA and use ivory for every thing from good luck charms to medicine, carvings and the like. The supply from elephants that dye naturally is very small.

As long as someone is buying illegal ivory in this country people will be slaughtering elephants in Africa for the demand.

I don't claim to have all the answers and I know small parts of ivory are used in musical instruments etc and where suitable substitutes can be used they should be legislated in.

I still don't like this "By Decree" method of enforcing anything and you folks that are legitimate ivory dealers and owners should have your say and have rights too!

 

[Doug C]

Its my understanding that the USA is the second largest destination for poached elephant ivory. China is the biggest but we are still no2.

Rhinoknives1,

Thailand and China are the two biggest buyers of elephant ivory.

Doug

 

[Mark Knapp]

Ron,
Its my understanding that the USA is the second largest destination for poached elephant ivory. China is the biggest but we are still no2.

I am not saying that any knife makers here on this forum are knowingly buying poached and chemically aged ivory.
There are certain ethnic groups that live here in the USA and use ivory for every thing from good luck charms to medicine, carvings and the like. The supply from elephants that dye naturally is very small.

As long as someone is buying illegal ivory in this country people will be slaughtering elephants in Africa for the demand.

I don't claim to have all the answers and I know small parts of ivory are used in musical instruments etc and where suitable substitutes can be used they should be legislated in.

I still don't like this "By Decree" method of enforcing anything and you folks that are legitimate ivory dealers and owners should have your say and have rights too!

I have to disagree with almost everything you say, the evidence just doesn't back it up, to the contrary, it points the other way.

First, If it is true that raw ivory is selling for $1,500.00 a pound (a number quoted in an LA Times article) in China no smuggler would bring it here. The going rate (dealers price) is closer to $100.00 a pound, I have bought it for that and know of several auctions where it sold for less than that.

Second, the recent crushing of under six tons of ivory by the US government would only be a drop in the bucket if the numbers of poached elephants being reported is true (one every fifteen minutes). That was a 25 year accumulation, (it comes to 40 pounds a month) in the same 25 years there has been over 100 tons of legal (CITES sanctioned) elephant ivory sold by African countries to help pay for wildlife conservation. It wasn't supposed to come to the US, but if it did, it's likely that some our six tons was some of the legal ivory, not part of the poaching problem. It is a fact that much of the ivory crushed was not being smuggled in but had been surrendered to the US F&W Service for lots of reasons, sometimes people get inherited this stuff and don't know what to do with it. Legal pre-ban ivory.

I am afraid you are misinformed. I'd rather we could just agree that poaching elephants is wrong and work together, take meaningful steps to prevent it.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Mark,
You want the ivory trade to continue in the USA and I want it stopped. Poached or Legal as you would call it..

There is no reason that these animals should be slaughtered to the point of extinction during our life times for nothing more than their teeth when we have many materials that can be used instead. Even if we aren't the no2 buyer anymore we should lead in stopping all elephant hunting except in the case of too many large herds which I don't think they will have that game management problem for a long time if ever again.

There were no subsides for the Buggy whip industry when the automobile replaced the horse and I am sure that these fine smart merchants can find other materials to deal in.

Now, we do live in a democracy last time I checked and I want it shut down legally.

By the way. Most attorney's will tell you that you have a case as long as you are paying them.

I wish you luck and we can discuss knives and other topics in the future if you like?

 

[Doug C]

Rhinoknives1 or Laurence, (If I may call you that)

How do you feel about mammoth, mastodon and ancient walrus ?

Another question if I may.
Where did you get the notion that we (the USA) were ever the #2 buyer of elephant ivory ?
Not trying to be confrontational, just curious.

Doug