New ZT/Hinderer Flipper is Coming!!!0560/0561

Presumed_Lost said:
I don't think anyone really knows yet. Personally I'm more concerned with the plastic (what polymer IS that?) washer that holds the bearings reacting with solvents or lubricants that people may try to use to get grit OUT of the bearing without disassembling it. I've seen alcohol destroy plastics, and I hear some gun lubes eat some polymers as well.

Don't get me wrong, I think this has the potential to be a great knife,, maybe a knife that raises the bar for all production folders from now on, and I'm really tempted.. but by introducing it with a largely-unproven bearing system ZT has probably made a few folks like myself hesitate. With a move this drastic it's not unusual for there to be a few bugs in early releases, when stuff actually starts to get used by large numbers of people in the field in many different conditions. It's the biggest reason I decided not to pre-order and take a wait-and-see position instead. I hope I'm just being over-cautious, but it's not a trivial amount of money, I've got the ZT0551 in my pocket, and we'll probably start to get real-world feedback soon enough.
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Whether it be an exotic steel, a new bearing system, a Sub Frame-lock, all new introductory technology is unproven in the real world. It's like that with all industries, be it auto's and all their latest options and performance, to electronics with their ever changing advancements. Should the consumer be wary and cautious investing in the latest the leaders have to offer, or should their be excitement and anticipation? I guess that answer is different for everybody. There are consumer trailblazers, and then those that take the path that others have traveled.

As to KVT, can you take an obscure situation scenario's and make it fail, sure. We're not promoting it to be impervious to every situation. Nothing I've see is. KVT improves the smoothness when opening/closing a knife vs what we've used to date. We hope others see/feel the advancement as well.
Like with so many other technologies/improvements we've seen in the past, we feel bearings will become commonplace for all future folders. Watch and see.
 
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Thomas W said:
Whether it be an exotic steel, a new bearing system, a Sub Frame-lock, all new introductory technology is unproven in the real world. It's like that with all industries, be it auto's and all their latest options and performance, to electronics with their ever changing advancements. Should the consumer be wary and cautious investing in the latest the leaders have to offer, or should their be excitement and anticipation? I guess that answer is different for everybody. There are consumer trailblazers, and then those that take the path that others have traveled.

As to KVT, can you take an obscure situation scenario's and make it fail, sure. We're not promoting it to be impervious to every situation. Nothing I've see is. KVT improves the smoothness when opening/closing a knife vs what we've used to date. We hope others see/feel the advancement as well.
Like with so many other technologies/improvements we've seen in the past, we feel bearings will become commonplace for all future folders. Watch and see.
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Since that seems a direct response to me:

Could well be the future. There are other possible concerns (contact surface area- any chance of the balls denting the Ti if it falls open onto a hard surface?), but none that can't be overcome if they should prove to be valid. I have more confidence in the ball-bearing (or maybe needle bearing?) concept (which of course has a VERY long history) than I do in introducing another plastic into knives (we pretty much accept phenolics, PTFE etc.), but maybe my caution is completely unfounded.

I think we're pretty much saying the same thing different ways. I freely admit to not being an "early adopter" of innovations with knives... or pretty much anything where I might be very dependent on it working. Some see it as a great opportunity to experience the latest and greatest, and they're right. I'm just as likely to see it as paying over $200 for the opportunity to Beta-test something, but that's just me. I've been a (pro) programmer for 25 years, if that doesn't teach you not to trust early versions, nothing will.

No doubt I'll buy one eventually if it proves out, I hope it does and I'm certain some version will... but it's also true that if it weren't for this innovation I would have just pre-ordered it some time ago.

As it is, like the guy in the soda-pop commercial says, "I'll wait a bit". ;)
 
NaturalMystic said:
I have an order in with my buddy BigJay at EDC Canada in Vaughan. Check out the site which has the 0560 listed, and give Jay a call or click the "Put me on the waiting list" link. No deal spotting!
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Sorry Thomas, didn't realize listing one of your distributors was deal spotting, especially since I don't really know what the regular price of these is gonna be. Or is it because they aren't a dealer on this site? Whatever the reason, sorry about that.
 
Well said, buddy:thumbup:

Thomas W said:
Whether it be an exotic steel, a new bearing system, a Sub Frame-lock, all new introductory technology is unproven in the real world. It's like that with all industries, be it auto's and all their latest options and performance, to electronics with their ever changing advancements. Should the consumer be wary and cautious investing in the latest the leaders have to offer, or should their be excitement and anticipation? I guess that answer is different for everybody. There are consumer trailblazers, and then those that take the path that others have traveled.

As to KVT, can you take an obscure situation scenario's and make it fail, sure. We're not promoting it to be impervious to every situation. Nothing I've see is. KVT improves the smoothness when opening/closing a knife vs what we've used to date. We hope others see/feel the advancement as well.
Like with so many other technologies/improvements we've seen in the past, we feel bearings will become commonplace for all future folders. Watch and see.
Click to expand...
 
NaturalMystic said:
Sorry Thomas, didn't realize listing one of your distributors was deal spotting, especially since I don't really know what the regular price of these is gonna be. Or is it because they aren't a dealer on this site? Whatever the reason, sorry about that.
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They have to be a paid dealer on Bladeforums or it is a no no.

My very first post on here was "deal spotting". :) Found good deal and just wanted to share, but I know where they are coming from.
 
Thomas W said:
As to KVT, can you take an obscure situation scenario's and make it fail, sure. We're not promoting it to be impervious to every situation. Nothing I've see is. KVT improves the smoothness when opening/closing a knife vs what we've used to date. We hope others see/feel the advancement as well.
Like with so many other technologies/improvements we've seen in the past, we feel bearings will become commonplace for all future folders. Watch and see.
Click to expand...

Good reply Thomas. I agree that bearing systems will be more common in non-customs, in time.

Presumed_Lost kind of took things off track IMHO, when the question was more about the nature of the KVT - in regard to being sealed or not, maintenance issues such as need for lube, resistance to the elements i.e. being dropped in some wet & dirty puddle, whether the inner & outter bearing race is resistant to degradation by various lubes or if it even needs our care?

I'm interested in those questions and don't care to cancel my pre-order to wait and see if people post about problems. I think Zero Tolerance must have some info on these questions by now maybe? :)
 
The fact that it is a folder means that there are additional components that will fail irrespective of the user scenario. Pivot wear, bearings, centering, lock failure, etc. Complexity is the best way to introduce features to any system. The best hard use knives will always be fixed blades. And the best fixed blade will always be a machete.

Presumed_Lost said:
Since that seems a direct response to me:

Could well be the future. There are other possible concerns (contact surface area- any chance of the balls denting the Ti if it falls open onto a hard surface?), but none that can't be overcome if they should prove to be valid. I have more confidence in the ball-bearing (or maybe needle bearing?) concept (which of course has a VERY long history) than I do in introducing another plastic into knives (we pretty much accept phenolics, PTFE etc.), but maybe my caution is completely unfounded...
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adnj said:
The fact that it is a folder means that there are additional components that will fail irrespective of the user scenario. Pivot wear, bearings, centering, lock failure, etc. Complexity is the best way to introduce features to any system. The best hard use knives will always be fixed blades. And the best fixed blade will always be a machete.
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I think most of us that have pre-ordered one of the new ZT's understand that folders have more moving parts than a fixed blade. I just was curious if the KVT bearing system required any special attention with regards to keeping it lubed (what product you recommend) and if any special care was needed to keep it clean/free of debris? I have no doubt that ZT has it all worked out and that the knife will function beautifully, just haven't heard much about the new KVT system (excited to try it) and any owner/user requirements it may have.
Thank you!
 
adnj said:
The fact that it is a folder means that there are additional components that will fail irrespective of the user scenario. Pivot wear, bearings, centering, lock failure, etc. Complexity is the best way to introduce features to any system. The best hard use knives will always be fixed blades. And the best fixed blade will always be a machete.
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Machete. Um.. right. Especially for skinning squirrel. Always the best.

And, as I've said elsewhere, for simplicity and reliability you just can't beat a sharp rock. Worked for millions of years. All these new developments like handles have only come into fashion since the agricultural revolution, and they're really only because people are too lazy to learn how really properly use a sharp rock. You don't need handles, different materials, or metals. Why introduce all that complexity and all those possible points of failure? Rocks don't rust and they don't bend, they really hold an edge (can't beat obsidian for that), and there are surprisingly few legal carry restrictions. People just like handles, blades and metals because they look pretty, they don't know any better, and it's easier to buy a knife in a store than learn to chip your own. It's a fad, it will pass once we get over this civilization thing.

Remember, rocks don't fold. "A guy with a ROCK don't NEED no lock".
 
Wharn said:
Forgive me for going off topic but I thought obsidian was extremely brittle and shatters easily.
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I hope you didn't take any of that seriously, but, yeah, obsidian is essentially volcanic glass. Like glass it's very hard, so can be VERY sharp and does hold an edge (same principle as ceramic), but it will chip and snap.. but that's mostly a problem will fully-knapped/flaked stone blades, which are quite an evolutionary step from a "sharp rock".

Great corrosion resistance, though, and it doesn't need any coating to be ninja-black!
 
cziv said:
Presumed_Lost kind of took things off track IMHO, when the question was more about the nature of the KVT - in regard to being sealed or not, maintenance issues such as need for lube, resistance to the elements i.e. being dropped in some wet & dirty puddle, whether the inner & outter bearing race is resistant to degradation by various lubes or if it even needs our care?
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Sorry, didn't mean to derail it, and I'm not sure how this got on complexity, we all understand folders have moving parts, that's not an objection. All valid questions, I just voiced some slight concern about the chemical stability of the polymer, having seen good firearms damaged that way (solvents making recoil buffers brittle).. if it's PTFE, probably a non-issue, but I don't know that. Still think I'd still prefer all-metal in there, though.

However, personally I'm fine waiting for answers from the field. As a mentor of mine once said (about business in general), "If you ask for vague reassurance you get vague reassurance. Doesn't cost them anything." ;)
 
Presumed_Lost said:
Sorry, didn't mean to derail it, and I'm not sure how this got on complexity, we all understand folders have moving parts, that's not an objection. All valid questions, I just voiced some slight concern about the chemical stability of the polymer, having seen good firearms damaged that way (solvents making recoil buffers brittle).. if it's PTFE, probably a non-issue, but I don't know that. Still think I'd still prefer all-metal in there, though.

However, personally I'm fine waiting for answers from the field. As a mentor of mine once said (about business in general), "If you ask for vague reassurance you get vague reassurance. Doesn't cost them anything." ;)
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No derailment. Nothing to apologize for brother. I thought maybe Thomas missed the essence of the question which was what you and I have now re-stated. I have the same gun related concerns about reactions to certain chemicals and would love to hear some info on the nature of their KVT bearing system, care & maintenance.

I guess we'll know when we know. He's pretty busy now running Kershaw/ZT, Moderator here and I'm following him on Twitter too (plus I heard Facebook page too).

He's got lot's of irons in the fire and can't respond to us every post or at least as much as he used to. If he could I'd send him a blue T-shirt with a big red S in the middle...lol :D

P.S. I heard you Tweeting Thomas. If BJ had to drop a loss then I'm with you. Nick Diaz is an awesome competitor and no one to hang your head down by getting an "L" over.
 
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Well, the 0551 was my very first ZT and it has single-handedly made me rethink what I should expect at that very popular price point. I do not want to nor will I name names but I can no longer justify the extra expense of couple other brands after handling, carrying and using the ZT 0551. In my opinion the 0551 is one Hell of a knife for the money.....forget the cost, its great knife!

I can't wait until I'm contacted about the 0560 being in stock!
 
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