New ZT looks pretty disappointing

johnnytoxin said:
You have your opinion/experience and I have mine which obviously differs from yours. However the above statement is a little strange because Reeve invented the frame lock which borrows from the Walker liner lock. He has proven for the last 30 years that he understands the details and intricacies of liner/frame lock design. If he sees the ceramic ball as an improvement on the design I don’t really see how you could argue against it. Unless you are a maker as well and understand the design as well as he does? They even have it on the Sebenza now. Seems like a bad idea for them as a company if the ceramic ball is indeed inferior. Anyway I could talk about this stuff all day but don’t want to pull this thread off topic anymore so PM me if you want to continue discussing.
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I think Reeve did it for reasons that in his mind are good. I just don't personally agree with the change, nor do I believe that someone who invented something necessarily does that thing the best after 30 years. I am not a folding knife maker, but I do have a degree and professional license in mechanical engineering which informs why I feel the way I do about this design choice in particular. The system works, but it isn't as good in my estimation and actual observation as other frame lock implementations, and I won't hold CRK above critique just because of his resume. The way his lock engages is different than the classical liner lock, and offers little advantage to offset this change.
 
marrenmiller said:
The lock bar on my Umnumzaan, along with those on multiple other knives with similar lock engagement geometry, would move upwards into the handle if you stressed the lock, even as the ceramic ball held fast. This never resulted in a lock failure
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Isn't that how the ceramic ball is designed? The harder you use it, the more secure it becomes?
 
I remember when the Kershaw Boa was released. That was a "WOW!" design, for me, but I always felt it should be "more". The 350 hit it dead on. I have my Emerson ZTs, Onion ZTs, and a pair each of the 750 and 150. I like what I have, but am definitely of the old school crowd- the new industrial artistic designs are not engaging.
 
marrenmiller said:
and I won't hold CRK above critique just because of his resume. The way his lock engages is different than the classical liner lock, and offers little advantage to offset this change.
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I was going to pm you but since you are a Basic member I can’t, and no one seems to mind our discussion so:

No one should be held above critique for any reason so critique away. Little advantage? Yes, I agree, and most users had no issues with their titanium lock face in the first place. But that’s what CRK does. They make small subtle changes to improve their products over time. Every locking folding knife they make now has the ceramic ball. They have examined thousands of knives that have been returned to them for spa service/ warranty issues and have come to the conclusion that all their locking folding knives should have this interface. The umnumzaan was introduced in 2008. Thats quite a bit of production time and research they have into it. As far as I know, your observations and opinions are based purely on your experience with one production sample. Or have you tested/examined multiple samples? I own/have owned 2 Sebenza 21’s 3 Umnumzaans and a Sebenza 25, all were carried and used heavily with no issues. The only advantage I see over the ti lock is longevity. The same advantage a steel lock insert has, but in my opinion, the ceramic ball is a more elegant solution. This whole thing is funny in that I used to be an extreme skeptic of the ceramic ball interface. Just like you, I didn’t like the concept at all, in fact the first time I handled an Umnumzaan in person, I didn’t buy it because of the lock. Now I can honestly say it’s my favorite folding knife design of all time.
 
unwisefool said:
Isn't that how the ceramic ball is designed? The harder you use it, the more secure it becomes?
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I believe he was talking about it moving in the direction of the spine of the knife, but any frame lock without a lock bar stabilizer will do that.
 
johnnytoxin said:
I believe he was talking about it moving in the direction of the spine of the knife, but any frame lock without a lock bar stabilizer will do that.
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Oh weird, I have never had that happen with mine, and I have stabbed it hard into objects that I needed opened in a hurry
 
unwisefool said:
Isn't that how the ceramic ball is designed? The harder you use it, the more secure it becomes?
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It moves up into the frame, as there is nothing to keep the lockbar from flexing up into the handle and the lock geometry directs the force into the lockbar more normal to the bar than along it.
 
johnnytoxin said:
I believe he was talking about it moving in the direction of the spine of the knife, but any frame lock without a lock bar stabilizer will do that.
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Not necessarily. Frame locks with lock geometry where the force is applied in a direction along the lock bar rather than at a nearly right angle to it do not behave the same way in my experience, stabilizer or not. The ceramic ball interface being placed the way it is leads to the lock bar not being loaded axially as a column when the lock is stressed, but rather being loaded with much or even most of the force on the lock being directed normal to the bar. Does this matter? Not really, the knife still works and there are a lot of knives out there designed as such. But no good engineer would design something that way intentionally unless they had no choice or were striving for different design elements where peak lock function wasn't the primary consideration.
 
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unwisefool said:
Oh weird, I have never had that happen with mine, and I have stabbed it hard into objects that I needed opened in a hurry
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If you think about it, stabbing doesn't really stress a lock much unless the force vector applied on the blade points below the pivot, meaning most stabbing with a folder is handled by the pivot and stop pin. I'm really referring just to the usual check I do on all locks by just applying some static force with my hands. If it passes that, it's good to go in my book. The Umnumzaan passed for me but the lock interface moved so much that it made me uncomfortable, and I don't prefer the change over a carburized/carbidized ti interface or a steel insert.

I apologize for contributing in thoroughly derailing the thread. I'll stop with the note that I quite like my cheaply acquired 0308 and would likely buy a ZT CRK collab.
 
longun said:
I like turtles! I mean thumbstuds. Come on ZT. How about some new knives with thumbstuds.
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YES!!!!!!!

I am so tired of thumb discs or flipper tabs.

I just got one of the new Microtech Socom Elites and the thumb studs on it are Awesome!

I would love ZT to bring out more knives with thumb studs.
 
marrenmiller said:
It moves up into the frame, as there is nothing to keep the lockbar from flexing up into the handle and the lock geometry directs the force into the lockbar more normal to the bar than along it.
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Lol I'm very bad at trying to visualize without an illustration of some sort. Preferably crayons. Or that colored chalk that tastes like cherry medicine. But I'll believe you if it's happened on your knife
 
marrenmiller said:
As someone who doesn't think the ceramic ball on the umnumzaan is a good thing at all (based on owning one, at that), that's fine with me. I'll take a steel lock insert any day. Either way, I bet that ZT could functionally replicate the rest of the design without issues.
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I have to politely disagree. :D Just cause we can and we will still be friends. ;)
I like the ceramic detent, other than that it makes the lockbar look like it has late lockup.
Im not a huge fan of inserts and generally dont have any knives with them. Just another unnecessary piece to have screws fall out of. ;) A well done titanium lockbar is a beauty to use. Thanks CRK!!

On topic, the new ZT does absolutely nothing for me. Torsion bar...blah. Bladeshape...blah. Materials...blah. Its a kershaw in a cheap tuxedo.
Unfortunately, I have been off the ZT wagon for a number of years now. Last and only ZT I still own is a 0770CF that no one wants to buy even tho it is NIB. Thinking I may have to take out the torsion bar, de-flipper it, and put a thumbstud on. Its a great knife with these three failures.
The other that interested me is the Emerson collab, but I cant get over the thumb disk and the sheer weight of the knife...although a member here has a very sexy micarta one I would buy in a heartbeat.
Those are my thoughts for what its worth.
And marrenmiller marrenmiller , your opinions are respected by me. Different strokes for different folks. :D
 
marrenmiller said:
If you think about it, stabbing doesn't really stress a lock much unless the force vector applied on the blade points below the pivot, meaning most stabbing with a folder is handled by the pivot and stop pin. I'm really referring just to the usual check I do on all locks by just applying some static force with my hands. If it passes that, it's good to go in my book. The Umnumzaan passed for me but the lock interface moved so much that it made me uncomfortable, and I don't prefer the change over a carburized/carbidized ti interface or a steel insert.

I apologize for contributing in thoroughly derailing the thread. I'll stop with the note that I quite like my cheaply acquired 0308 and would likely buy a ZT CRK collab.
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I agree carburized/carbidized is the interface for me. :)
 
On the zt site, it states they are heat treating the 0357 blade to 57-59 hrc. So a bit low? Going to look at the other knives and see if they tell hrc.

Edit : 0223 is 60-62
 
I don't get worried or upset when a knife company makes a knife I don't quite understand or like. I know they aren't designing and marketing just to me. That would be a very poor business strategy!

I can see what they are doing here though. Put something in to bridge the gap between kershaw and zt. Sort of like the 350 or 566 or the 200 even, and what was that tanto blade one called, 700 or 500? Something like that. This has a lower end kershaw feel, with a ZT badge and price bump. Nothing wrong with trying to get the person who has kershaw money but wants a ZT to spend a bit more and get something that satisfies the lower budget reality and the higher end wants.

I don't like the speed safe. I don't particularly like the look. This knife isn't for me but I bet it will sell. And if it doesn't, it will go they way of all the other knives that didn't sell and KAI will come out with something else that I might like.
 
craytab said:
... I can see what they are doing here though. Put something in to bridge the gap between kershaw and zt. ... This has a lower end kershaw feel, with a ZT badge and price bump. Nothing wrong with trying to get the person who has kershaw money but wants a ZT to spend a bit more and get something that satisfies the lower budget reality and the higher end wants...
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I generally like the premium Kershaws. The M390 Dividend is my office/shirt-pocket carry. The premium Link was attractive to me but didn't fit my hand well. The 0357 taps into the same sort of vibe for me. It sparks the same kind of interest. That forces me to ask a hard question. At almost twice the price, will it be twice as good or bring me twice the enjoyment?
 
A 20CV, assisted liner lock for $150? Why do that when you can get a Link with identical specs for half price? G10 scales definitely don’t amount to a $70 difference. Maybe I’m missing something? I almost wanna get it so I can compare it to my Link, lol.
 
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