Newbie collaboration knife?

stingray4540 said:
Through email, a few drawing designs have been being passed around. All of them great looking. It seems though that since the original set of drawings a lot of people have been suggesting a hawk, a large knife like a bowie, and a smaller knife.

I have to disagree with this though, because I don't see any need for a large bowie type knife if we are making a hawk. I just think that the hawk and bowie would be competing against each other for use as a chopper. If we are making a set I don't know why we don't make each blade specialized for different tasks.

I would think that if we are making a hawk, then we don't have need for a knife with longer than a 6" blade. I would suggest a hawk for chopping and camping chores, a 5" or 6" hunting knife, and a 2 1/2" or 3" fishing/caping/ or skinning knife.


This of course is just my opinion and I know that there will be many differing oppinions, but I just don't see the use for a large chopping knife AND a Hawk.

Of course I could just be miss-understanding the desire for a large knife completely and maybe there are more versitile uses for a large knife that I don't know about and that the hawk wouldn't work well for.
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I would normally agree with you, but now that we have the wonderful donation of curly maple from Bill Morans shop it behooves us to use it in the spirit of the man. I also tend to disagree somewhat that the two are interchangeable. Splitting small logs with a camp or bowie knife is one thing, but splitting large logs with that kind of knife is something it is capable of doing, but not best at. That is why the hawk is essential to the set.

Which leads to eliminating the camp/bowie knife as you have suggested. I think a camp/bowie still has its place along side a hawk though. Even though a hawk can do the chores of splitting smaller logs and knocking smaller branches off of trees, etc., it isn't as ideal as a camp knife would be. A well designed camp knife is a joy to use with smaller logs and the like. In addition it can be used very well as a butcher type knife.

I tend to lean towards smaller hunting knives anyhow, so making a drop point hunter in about a 4" blade design (this is in the middle of the two knives you proposed for cutting length) allows it to be used for more tasks than a longer 6" version or a shorter 2.5" to 3" version.

A 4" ranger drop point will compliment the hawk and camp knife very well.

This is, of course, just my opinion.

Ickie
 
Since this is not an original method I will repost the words of Chuck Burrows original text. I have only used this a few times but with great sucess. I may not be experienced enough to come up with my own finish style as of yet but I am smart enough to use one that kicks behind. Ron Petley pointed out how nice a light color is on high grade maple and I am voting for oiled no dye or a light colored dye in agreement. Any maple Bill was using is probably better than what I have stumbled upon and leaving it close to its natural color should showcase the rays and figure of the wood (correct terms?).

Dustin Golat

"Sand to a 600 grit finish. Then burnish well with first 4/0 steel wool and then a coarse cloth such as old jeans or canvas (rub and until you feel the heat from rubbing hard). Burnishing can really make the difference between a so so finish and an eye popping one.

Now go to the hardware store and get a bottle of Muriatic Acid (aka hydrochloric aka HCL). Heat the wood with a hair dryer on high or a heat gun (paint stripper) - you can use a torch but be real careful not to scorch the wood or no matter what method overheat it. Wearing rubber gloves and a mask and with plenty of ventilation wipe on the acid - while still wet heat again with the haird dryer or heat gun until completely dry. To neutralize the acid wash down with a solution of water and baking soda or club soda. Let dry completely and then burnish again with 4/0 steel wool followed by the coarse cloth - this should really make the grain "pop" and it should turn it a nice golden tan/light brown. If you want it darker add a coat or two of leather dye and then burnish again before adding your finish.

As a finish I use Watco Danish Oil in neutral (or instead of dye you can use one of the colored oils) - slosh it on for three or four days until it won't take any more oil. Then with a cloth dampened in the oil rub off any excess which will remove the stickiness and then burnish good. You can add a final coat of wax if you wish to make it glossier." - qouted from Chuck Burrows, thanks for sharing!

maple-2.jpg
 
Mr. J. McDonald asked me in an email if we had decided on who was to perform which tasks on this project.

I sent out the below email to the team. If you're on the team and didn't get the email, or haven't responded yet, please respond to me at scott.ickes@timken.com

Email to the team:

Once we settle on designs, which will be voted on by the group, then I will put together an email to the group. I'll list a group of three nominees for each task. My list of nominees will take into account skill level from the "Strength & Weaknesses" survey, what they would like to do, as well as, making sure that everyone has something significant to do.

Let's start with each of you listing what you would like to have as your task. Please list three things that you'd hope to be doing on this knife. List them 1, 2 and 3, with #1 being the task you most want to do, #2 being your second choice and #3 being your third choice.

Tasks are listed below, but not limited to the following (since I might have missed something):
Make the damascus.
Forge
Heat treat
Grind
Finish blade
Prep and etch blade
File the tang. (Hidden Tang)
Drill
Mill
Make guard
Fit guard
Make and fit bolsters
Make and fit handle material. (designate full tang, hidden tang or you can say both)
Finish work on handles and bolsters/guards
Leather work
Presentation Box

If I missed anything, please put it on your list.


I'll get the ball rolling.
1. Forge
2. Make and fit bolsters
3. Make and fit handle material. (both)

I hope to have everyone doing something that they want to do.

Ickie
 
Are we going to be using a 10xx/15n20 combination of the damascus? I'm a bit squirrely about messing up any phase of the project, but I could see myself either forging the bowie if it is the hidden tang knife (homey don't do full tangs...lol) or heat treating. If someone else has a heat treating oven or high temp salt baths and some Parks quenching oil, it might be better for them to do the heat treat. I wouldn't want to risk any of these pieces by quenching them in last nights salad dressing....lol. I have Parks #50 and Brownells Tough Quench, but I am still using the forge for HT. So how big do you want the bowie to be?:D

So here is my wish list
1. Forge the Bowie
2. Heat treat.
3. Stand on the sidelines and lend moral support:p
 
jdm61 said:
Are we going to be using a 10xx/15n20 combination of the damascus? I'm a bit squirrely about messing up any phase of the project, but I could see myself either forging the bowie if it is the hidden tang knife (homey don't do full tangs...lol) or heat treating. If someone else has a heat treating oven or high temp salt baths and some Parks quenching oil, it might be better for them to do the heat treat. I wouldn't want to risk any of these pieces by quenching them in last nights salad dressing....lol. I have Parks #50 and Brownells Tough Quench, but I am still using the forge for HT. So how big do you want the bowie to be?:D

So here is my wish list
1. Forge the Bowie
2. Heat treat.
3. Stand on the sidelines and lend moral support:p
Click to expand...

Joe,
Are you on the email distribution list? In other words, are you getting all of the emails? You're choices are noted.
 
scottickes said:
Joe,
Are you on the email distribution list? In other words, are you getting all of the emails? You're choices are noted.
Click to expand...
Yes, I am sir. But all of the replies make some of them confusing....;)
 
jdm61 said:
Yes, I am sir. But all of the replies make some of them confusing....;)
Click to expand...


Please, please, please don't call me sir. :p I might start calling you Joey. :D

Call me Scott or Ickie. My dad is sir.

Thus far, I have responses from 9 of our team on what they'd like to work on. Actually, 10 counting me. Keep em' coming guys.

Ickie
 
My emails are bouncing, anyone else having trouble? I'm trying to send the drawings I made. Also, the last email I received was on Tuesday morning from the group.
 
We've actually got a mailing list set up through another website and to date I've gotten 50 or so emails from them just fine. I was hoping someone else in the mailing group could confirm or deny whether they've gotten any. Also that wouldn't explain why my emails to the group are bouncing, would it?
 
the post confirmation emails from Bladeforum.com is the one you will have concern with
check if your email host , (your web provider) has Black listed spark@bladeforums.com or any mail that has @bladeforums.com in it..

other than that go to the link I gave you you will get little help with it else where... it's why that forum is there.. it's all I know about it..

Also that wouldn't explain why my emails to the group are bouncing
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their host may have you Black listed also.. :confused: just a guess
 
Looking good fellows.
Scott, are you putting the grinding after forging step (prior to HT ) as part of the forging?
Also - Last step should be sharpening.

For the hawk project, the steps might be -
Forge Wrought Iron into a "U" and forge weld steel bit into "U"
Shape head
Drift eye to shape
Grind head
Heat Treat head
Finish head
Etch head and polish
Shape and fit handle
Color/dye handle
Apply finish to handle
Decorate handle
Make leather edge/head cover
Presentation box
Sharpen

Stacy
 
Jared,

The last thing I sent was the CAD drawings of what scans Ickes had sent out. They got bounced back from the distro set up at grandvalleyforge.com so I sent to him directly. Haven't heard anything since, included from Scott. Dunno....
 
bladsmth said:
Looking good fellows.
Scott, are you putting the grinding after forging step (prior to HT ) as part of the forging?
Also - Last step should be sharpening.

For the hawk project, the steps might be -
Forge Wrought Iron into a "U" and forge weld steel bit into "U"
Shape head
Drift eye to shape
Grind head
Heat Treat head
Finish head
Etch head and polish
Shape and fit handle
Color/dye handle
Apply finish to handle
Decorate handle
Make leather edge/head cover
Presentation box
Sharpen

Stacy
Click to expand...

There should be two grinding steps. A grind between forging and heat treating and a finish grind after heat treat.

Sorry that I've been away. I've been standing in front of coal miners all week teaching maintenance classes. MY FEET HURT!!

ickie
 
Ok, sounds good. I didn't hear anything from you so I thought maybe something came up and went ahead and drew everything up in photoshop.
 
I've just sent an email out to the Newbie Team. We are in the final stages of design and nearly ready to begin determining who will perform which tasks. I am putting the contents of my email plus the two proposed designs here in the thread as well. Any comments from the team can be either be made here, or by responding to my email.

Comments from the more advanced makers, and all others (such as, plain old knife lovers, purveyors, collectors, etc.) is welcome and encouraged.

Enjoy!

Ickie

Newbie Team:

We're closing in on final drawings. I've attached the two proposals for the teams scrutiny or vote.

They are both pretty much identical, just drawn with different programs and some slight differences. The three pdf drawings are by Eric. The jpg drawing is by Jared. We are really close to a final set of drawings.

On the drawing with the three pieces together (Jareds drawings), I like:
The look of the inlaid wire, as far as the pattern is concerned.
The flat spot on the arrow head side of the hawk. It will be a great place to put all of our names! A great idea!
The guard on the hunter.

On the other set of three different pdf drawings (Erics drawings), I like:
The guard on the bowie and on the hunter. If we go with the two guard designs that I've just mentioned for the hunter and the bowie, they will have a better match to
the overall shape and design. I've looked at the two different hunter designs side by side and I think the guards are designed almost identical.
I like having two pins in all of the handles from a construction perspective. I like the look of one pin better, but one pin in a full tang hunter would be difficult to pull off.
Does anyone in our group have experience with "hidden pin" construction on full tang handles? If we have someone capable of constructing a one
pin full tang handle, then we should go with the one pin design to show off the beautiful "Moran" curly maple.
I like all of the dimensions on Erics drawings! When I look at them side by side with Jareds drawings, I don't see any difference when I put a ruler against them.
I feel that both of them have nailed the proportions of handle to blade really well!!

Does anyone disagree with my thoughts? If no one disagrees, I suggest that we make those subtle changes to combine the two similar designs and move forward.

A question specifically for Jared:
Are you able to add Erics dimensions to your drawings?
Are you able to incorporate the guard of his bowie to your bowie design?

Comments from the group please as either:
I like the suggested changes and lets move forward.
or
Let's keep debating, because of the following reasons..........and then state your reasons please.

One thing we need to add to the drawings is blade and tang thicknesses! Especially at the ricasso areas. I'd like to keep the three pieces as light weight as possible, but still strong enough to perform the tasks for which they are constructed. Any suggestions?

p.s.
Both of these gentlemen have submitted excellent drawings for us to review, tweak and dream with. They have opened up their artistic talent to our scrutiny and have vastly enhanced the entire groups ability to visualize this set of cutting tools. My hat is off to the group as a whole, but to Eric and Jared in particular. Thank you to both of you. I feel that they should be mentioned as major contributors as far as "effort" is concerned on our "Certificate of Authenticity" for this project. Great work by all, and a pat on the back to Eric and Jared is definitely in order.

Scott Ickes
Click to expand...
 

Attachments

Here are the requested modifications (my emails are still bouncing for the group).
newbiesetmodguard.jpg


I can do the hidden pin portion. I was also thinking if we still want the through pin method, why not hide the pins in the inlay channels? We could put multiple small pins all throughout that way. Just a thought. Also, for the thicknesses I personally would go 1/16" on the hunter and 3/16" on the bowie, but I know not everyone likes to go that thin :)
 
I agree with your suggestion for the bowie thickness. I think that the hunter thickness should be about 1/8". I've never done hidden pins, so if it's doable (hiding them in the wire inlay channels) I'm all for it!

I do however, really like having one mosaic pin. The wire inlay in this design looks like the trails coming off of a comet. That mosaic pin with the inlay will create a nice flow to the handle design, IMHO.

Ickie
 
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