No weapons signs/zones. Obey or ignore?

[N8N]

When the people posting the sign specify so?

I think I'd turn around and go home, unless there were visible armed security. Why not a sign that says "pretty much everyone past this point is defenseless."

No, I'm not paranoid, but that sign offends me. If you don't trust me with a weapon, then you don't trust me. If you don't trust me, why should I trust you?

 

[N8N]

Several restrictive knife laws have been repealed over the last year in this country, not through open disobedience, but through the democratic process of lobbying and reasonable discourse.

The problem is, I don't think that reasonable discourse is possible. "It's for the children! Do you hate children?" and "If it saves JUST ONE LIFE it's worth it!" and the "discussion" is over. Seen it too many times.

Benjamin Franklin wept.

 

[killgar]

The problem is, I don't think that reasonable discourse is possible. "It's for the children! Do you hate children?" and "If it saves JUST ONE LIFE it's worth it!" and the "discussion" is over. Seen it too many times.

Benjamin Franklin wept.

Then you need to do some research. I provided one example- the Governor of Texas recently signed a bill making it LEGAL for ordinary citizens to carry switchblades. This didn't happen because a lot of people chose to disobey the law. It happened because reasonable, law abiding people convinced him to repeal the ban.

I don't know what type of country some people in this thread think they are living in, but laws don't get repealed because people break them. When people break the law they get arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned. The only way to change laws that you consider to be unfair is by first proving that you are a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, not by being a criminal.

 

[archieblue]

People are "made" to be afraid and since moving pictures it's been easy peasy. I would not carry a large knife to a courthouse or similar but even when I accidentally did in Austin they just "checked" it and gave it back to me when I left. People have a certain "implanted" lack of reason and certain distrust in their fellow man. It's bullshit, and like I said, implanted imagination. One bad apple ruins the whole bunch waaaay too frequently as of late. Often one bad apple can ruin millions or dozens of millions. I don't trust scared or overly cautious people and that includes the ones that post signs.

Nobody on the forums is an asshole except for the guy calling others such.

 

[stabman]

If you don't trust me, why should I trust you?

Exactly.
And it applies to more than knives.
I have no car, so I carry my stuff on the go in a backpack.
Some stores want people to leave their backpacks at the front, while women with purses can go about freely.
This is supposed to prevent theft...
As I told the last establishment, if I was going to steal their stuff, I wouldn't be wearing something that made them look more closely.
Furthermore, I said that I found their policy offensive, and that if they don't trust me, I don't want to buy their merchandise.

So, I left that place, and went shopping elsewhere...at a place which wasn't offending me and therefore proved that they wanted my business. :thumbup:
Vote with your dollars.

 

[stabman]

And if it's a government building then hey, governments are never fun...expect to be inconvenienced.

 

[22-rimfire]

My blade goes everywhere with me except inside the court house since there are metal detectors in my county. It is not a weapon, it's a tool that I use often. I ignore weapons signs with regard to knives. How would they ever know I have a knife on me. A box cutter is considered a weapon by the TSA.

 

[KennyB]

I have done my homework, and there is no law against using a knife for self defense. The term is displaying a knife furtively, which, I'm sure you researched, means in a threatening or dangerous manner. Carrying a knife and using it for self defense, so long as it is justified, is not furtively displating the knife, it is defending yourself. Believe me, if I pull a knife in self defense, it ain't just to show it and go 'boo'! It will be used. Also, the knife is neither a dirk or a dagger, which, by the way, are now legal so long as, again, they are not displayed furtively. It's a KABAR TDI, hardly a dirk.

Carrying an ankle knife to conceal it is not addressed in the law, only using a knife for the above criminal use. Concealment is a judgement call, because any traditional knife, that does not have a pocket clip, or a knife with a clip that is covered by a shirt could also be concealed. Concealment is not addressed except in the context of how it is used.

I did my homework a long time ago when I started collecting knives to avoid breaking the law. Wierd, huh?

Jim if you're going to go around talking about doing your homework, you might want to start with your English homework...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/furtive

a : done by stealth : surreptitious
b : expressive of stealth : sly <had a furtive look about him>
2
: obtained underhandedly : stolen
&#8212; fur·tive·ly adverb
&#8212; fur·tive·ness noun

"Furtive" means "secretly", "stealthy"... You know, like strapping a knife to your ankle so it cannot be seen. Feel free to look up more defintiions of the word for yourself.

Secondly: A dagger is defined as a double-edged knife. Knives with sharpened clip points are illegal in Washington state because of this. I've asked several LEO on this matter, what is your source?

Further, for the matter of interpertation... You're walking a fine line here. I actually asked some LEOs this exactly question, whether it depends on context of if it is simply concealed. The grand majority of them ( granted they were not Wasghinton State LEOs) stated clearly that context does not matter, because they don't know if you just had your shirt untucked or if you were trying to sneak the weapon around.

In quite contradictory fashion though, I communicated with the Attorney General for Washington State and he said that he was not aware of any case that argued the language of the statute... Posted all about it in Knife Laws forum. In fact I think I even posted the LEOs opinions on this--I asked them on a forum where there is a section for civillians to ask real cops questions, and the site verifies officers so I have no doubt they are legitimately police officers. http://www.realpolice.net/forums/ask-cop-112/ You can view my questions on there ( same name as here ) and I'd suggest you ask yourself there as you are as of now painfully ill-informed.

If you were pulled over, and for some reason told a cop you had your TDI on you for "self-defense" he would be well within the law to arrest you and from everything I've researched most LEOs would consider it a good arrest. I think it's time for a review. Meanwhile, I've asked LEOs if having a "neck knife" under a shirt would be considered concealed and they all agree it would, so due to your confusion of the language you've been unaware for quite some time you're illegally carrying a knife.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...oncealment-in-Washington-state-letter-from-AG

Meanwhile, you say you have PTSD and other mental issues? Hey me too! You ever notice outside your doctors office, it has a sign that has "No Weapons" but then the picture it uses is a revolver, with a circle and slash through it? Down at the bottom of that sticker is usually "RCW 9.41.300". You should really pay attention if the sign your school posted has this statute number written on it, or if it is just their own private policy, city ordinance, etc. These signs are not very good at specifying "gun" from "knife" so you really shouldn't trust them to.

Here's the real problem though when it comes to RCW 9.41.280, http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.280

RCW 9.41.280
Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities &#8212; Penalty &#8212; Exceptions.


(1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:

(a) Any firearm;

(b) Any other dangerous weapon as defined in RCW 9.41.250;

Which brings us back to http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.250

RCW 9.41.250
Dangerous weapons &#8212; Penalty.


(1) Every person who:

(a) Manufactures, sells, or disposes of or possesses any instrument or weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or spring blade knife;

(b) Furtively carries with intent to conceal any dagger, dirk, pistol, or other dangerous weapon; or

(c) Uses any contrivance or device for suppressing the noise of any firearm unless the suppressor is legally registered and possessed in accordance with federal law,

is guilty of a gross misdemeanor punishable under chapter 9A.20 RCW.

Where once again, carrying your TDI on your ankle concealed, violates section 1b of.

One part that's unfortunately so ill-defeined is "dangerous weapon". In my research, I've been able to find these articles in relation to that information...

(1) There is a certain class of instruments that require nothing more than their existence for proof of their nature, for example, a loaded firearm or knife with blade over three inches; therefore, if one is armed with such device, as courts have defined armed, then it follows that this is &#8220;deadly weapon. State v. Samaniego (1994) 76 Wn .App. 76, 882 P.2d 195.

(2) Possession of switchblade knife alone is not sufficient circumstance of use to render knife deadly weapon; there must be some manifestation of willingness to use knife before it can be found to be deadly weapon. State v. Gotcher (1988) 52 Wash.App. 350, 759 P.2d 1216.

(3) Under § 9.95.040, which provides in part that a &#8220;knife having a blade longer than three inches&#8221; is a deadly weapon, the question of whether a knife having a blade 3 inches or less in length is a deadly weapon depends on the circumstances and is a question of fact. State v. Thompson (1977) 88 Wash.2d 546, 564 P.2d 323.

So there is a lot to suggest ( but not define ) a deadly weapon as any knife over 3" of length in Washington state, and the question of whether intent makes it a deadly weapon or not. Meanwhile you're concealing it, and doing so on a school property.

So in reality you haven't been nearly as law abiding as you think.


Now personally, my therapist's office has a "no weapons" sign posted outside, I know it includes my knife. I take it inside anyway. I've been seeing them for years, and never ever once had a problem. One time my therapist saw my knife, I forget how or why but all she said was "Oh, well, keep that in your pocket and don't let the girls up front see it." Another time at my primary care provider's office, I lent it to a maintenance guy instlaling some new duct work.

The only time any one has EVER said a thing about my knfie was at a local pizza shop. I had it clipped to my shirt with a tek-lok, I was moving into a new place and this was convenient for me, and I decided to take a break and get dinner--forgetting about the knife. This was after the Aurora shooting in Colorado, and the guy who took my order at the counter commented, "Your probably shouldn't carry your knife around on your shirt like that after what happened in Denver..." I simply asked him, "Oh, I wasn't aware you had a policy, would you like me to leave?" You know oddly, the guy seemed to want my buisness and shut right up and I didn't get the cops called on me. Go figure.

Meanwhile, even if you went to something like the county clerk's office, obviously I left my knife in the car knowing they don't want it in there. Accidentally forgot my pepper-spray, and they actually had a locker to store it in. I asked and apparently if you did take your firearm or whatever into area, they have a locker where you can store it before going further. No alarms were raised, the cop was actually interested in the brand and asked me about it.

Granted I live on the East side. After watching a Seattle cop shoot a guy in the back for carving with a 3" folding knife, I would probably err on the side of caution over there as well.

Edit:

Speaking of Seattle, you don't happen to live there do you? Because city municipal code bans fixed blades of any length--actually this is so in a lot of places on the West side. Once again, Washington knife laws are full of ambiguity.

 

[dkb45]

My old high school stated in their code of conduct.

Weapon: A firearm as defined in 18 USC §921 for purposes of the Gun-Free Schools Act or anything else that can cause physical injury or death when used to cause physical injury or death.

So... everything is a weapon? If I try to use a pillow as a weapon it can cause injury. Even a straw can poke somebody in the eye. Laws like this are the reason why so many people are against knives. Yes, a knife can do damage, but so can a pencil, pen, nail file, book, or any number of thousands of other things common in schools and offices. If a person wants to hurt somebody they have numerous options even if they evidence to follow the rules, but last I checked it is pretty hard to cut a package open with a flower or pillow.

Yes, a knife can be a weapon, but it is primarily a tool. Arguably more damage can be caused with a screwdriver, but a screwdriver is a tool, not a weapon. This kind of double standard is both stupid and ridiculous. I'm not saying ban everything or nothing, I am saying stop dumb, pointless, and detrimental restrictions.

 

[Bufford]

Then you need to do some research. I provided one example- the Governor of Texas recently signed a bill making it LEGAL for ordinary citizens to carry switchblades. This didn't happen because a lot of people chose to disobey the law. It happened because reasonable, law abiding people convinced him to repeal the ban.

I don't know what type of country some people in this thread think they are living in, but laws don't get repealed because people break them. When people break the law they get arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned. The only way to change laws that you consider to be unfair is by first proving that you are a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, not by being a criminal.

This happens very rarely anymore, which is why people resort to civil disobedience. Civil disobedience been going since the invention of the rule of law is unlikely to change in the future.

 

[seanp]

I don't think that I've ever seen a "No Weapons" sign around here. Most places where such things can be enforced are a lot more specific. Like airports.

 

[N8N]

Then you need to do some research. I provided one example- the Governor of Texas recently signed a bill making it LEGAL for ordinary citizens to carry switchblades. This didn't happen because a lot of people chose to disobey the law. It happened because reasonable, law abiding people convinced him to repeal the ban.

I don't know what type of country some people in this thread think they are living in, but laws don't get repealed because people break them. When people break the law they get arrested, prosecuted, and imprisoned. The only way to change laws that you consider to be unfair is by first proving that you are a LAW ABIDING CITIZEN, not by being a criminal.

There's a huge difference in climate between TX (at least most parts of it) and the metro DC area.

Unfortunately, the mindset here is that nobody should have anything remotely dangerous of any sort, tool or not. (never mind that it would be ludicrously easy for me to drive into the "wrong" neighborhood and acquire any kind of weapon I wanted to relatively quickly and easily, assuming I had the cash and managed to appear non-threatening and non-coplike. I wouldn't ever *do* such a thing in any forseeable circumstance, mind you, because I do like doing things the right way, but still.) At my last job a subcontractor actually had a policeman order him off a ladder with a gun drawn because there was a report of a "suspicious person doing something in the ceiling" (um, he's an electrician, and he's trying to troubleshoot your fire alarm system.) that's just how paranoid and frightened people are... can't even just ask a guy what he's doing and who he works for, that would be too scary.

Added difficulty is that I actually reside in VA (the most reasonable of the options in many ways) so have no traction at all with any legislators in DC or MD.

The best that I feel that I can do is keep on carrying a good knife, be a good person, and be willing to educate and be friendly to anyone who notices it and asks about it. (and, of course, not to brandish it or act like a complete jerk.) I don't knowingly flaunt any laws, but since there's such a grey area normal EDC could possibly be construed by a cop having a bad day as a concealed weapon. If anyone ever questions me on it, I'll just state that in my opinion my knife is a tool not a weapon (which is one hundred percent the truth; I am *not* planning on using it on anyone or anything animate.) If you ask me why it has a 3.5" blade, I'll again tell you the honest truth, I have big hands, and I feel more comfortable with a knife with a big handle. My little 2.5" Kershaw takes more dexterity to open and close while keeping all my meaty parts away from the blade than does a larger knife. Why shouldn't I use the tools that I feel safer with? That's like asking me why I drive the car that I do when a Ford Escort is smaller and less threatening looking.

Most of my friends/acquaintances are cool and even if they don't regularly carry a knife (and that I don't understand, you need *something* just to get through the day) or have a CFP they don't begrudge anyone the right to do so. However they are not typical. Most people think I'm a little strange for just always having a little flashlight in my pocket and a "go bag" in the trunk of my car, but then again, one day when I got stuck trying to get home from work in a freak snowstorm, I just found a hotel that I could get to, got a room, and was sipping bourbon and waiting for my dinner while everyone else I knew was staring wide-eyed through the windshields of their vehicles, wondering if they were going to get any sleep at all or a fresh change of clothes before morning

The girl from Alaska understood though... it's not about being a "big man" or actually wanting to hurt someone, it's having the right tools for unexpected situations readily available to you.

 

[Shotgun]

Jim if you're going to go around talking about doing your homework, you might want to start with your English homework...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/furtive



"Furtive" means "secretly", "stealthy"... You know, like strapping a knife to your ankle so it cannot be seen. Feel free to look up more defintiions of the word for yourself.

Secondly: A dagger is defined as a double-edged knife. Knives with sharpened clip points are illegal in Washington state because of this. I've asked several LEO on this matter, what is your source?

Further, for the matter of interpertation... You're walking a fine line here. I actually asked some LEOs this exactly question, whether it depends on context of if it is simply concealed. The grand majority of them ( granted they were not Wasghinton State LEOs) stated clearly that context does not matter, because they don't know if you just had your shirt untucked or if you were trying to sneak the weapon around.

In quite contradictory fashion though, I communicated with the Attorney General for Washington State and he said that he was not aware of any case that argued the language of the statute... Posted all about it in Knife Laws forum. In fact I think I even posted the LEOs opinions on this--I asked them on a forum where there is a section for civillians to ask real cops questions, and the site verifies officers so I have no doubt they are legitimately police officers. http://www.realpolice.net/forums/ask-cop-112/ You can view my questions on there ( same name as here ) and I'd suggest you ask yourself there as you are as of now painfully ill-informed.

If you were pulled over, and for some reason told a cop you had your TDI on you for "self-defense" he would be well within the law to arrest you and from everything I've researched most LEOs would consider it a good arrest. I think it's time for a review. Meanwhile, I've asked LEOs if having a "neck knife" under a shirt would be considered concealed and they all agree it would, so due to your confusion of the language you've been unaware for quite some time you're illegally carrying a knife.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...oncealment-in-Washington-state-letter-from-AG

Meanwhile, you say you have PTSD and other mental issues? Hey me too! You ever notice outside your doctors office, it has a sign that has "No Weapons" but then the picture it uses is a revolver, with a circle and slash through it? Down at the bottom of that sticker is usually "RCW 9.41.300". You should really pay attention if the sign your school posted has this statute number written on it, or if it is just their own private policy, city ordinance, etc. These signs are not very good at specifying "gun" from "knife" so you really shouldn't trust them to.

Here's the real problem though when it comes to RCW 9.41.280, http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.280



Which brings us back to http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=9.41.250



Where once again, carrying your TDI on your ankle concealed, violates section 1b of.

One part that's unfortunately so ill-defeined is "dangerous weapon". In my research, I've been able to find these articles in relation to that information...







So there is a lot to suggest ( but not define ) a deadly weapon as any knife over 3" of length in Washington state, and the question of whether intent makes it a deadly weapon or not. Meanwhile you're concealing it, and doing so on a school property.

So in reality you haven't been nearly as law abiding as you think.


Now personally, my therapist's office has a "no weapons" sign posted outside, I know it includes my knife. I take it inside anyway. I've been seeing them for years, and never ever once had a problem. One time my therapist saw my knife, I forget how or why but all she said was "Oh, well, keep that in your pocket and don't let the girls up front see it." Another time at my primary care provider's office, I lent it to a maintenance guy instlaling some new duct work.

The only time any one has EVER said a thing about my knfie was at a local pizza shop. I had it clipped to my shirt with a tek-lok, I was moving into a new place and this was convenient for me, and I decided to take a break and get dinner--forgetting about the knife. This was after the Aurora shooting in Colorado, and the guy who took my order at the counter commented, "Your probably shouldn't carry your knife around on your shirt like that after what happened in Denver..." I simply asked him, "Oh, I wasn't aware you had a policy, would you like me to leave?" You know oddly, the guy seemed to want my buisness and shut right up and I didn't get the cops called on me. Go figure.

Meanwhile, even if you went to something like the county clerk's office, obviously I left my knife in the car knowing they don't want it in there. Accidentally forgot my pepper-spray, and they actually had a locker to store it in. I asked and apparently if you did take your firearm or whatever into area, they have a locker where you can store it before going further. No alarms were raised, the cop was actually interested in the brand and asked me about it.

Granted I live on the East side. After watching a Seattle cop shoot a guy in the back for carving with a 3" folding knife, I would probably err on the side of caution over there as well.

Edit:

Speaking of Seattle, you don't happen to live there do you? Because city municipal code bans fixed blades of any length--actually this is so in a lot of places on the West side. Once again, Washington knife laws are full of ambiguity.

This was the point of my post. What does the sign mean legally? Does it forbid knives or does it forbid weapons as outlined in state law? Just having a sign doesn't mean a law is being broken by disobeying it.

 

[GronK]

Many signs are just a case of someone protecting themselves from being sued. If someone gets stabbed they want to sue the deep pockets company, not the broke person that stabbed them. The company can point at the sign and say, "We had a sign up!"
Same for the pier. Someone gets drunk, falls in and drowns. "We had a sign up!"

 

[aquaman67]

I wore my knife to jury duty. I really didn't even think about it.

The bailiff just asked me to put it all the way in my pocket, and not use the clip.

But I live in a very, very rural county.

 

[harleyguy02]

I carry right past those signs.... I have my CCW permit, and I ignore those signs.. UNLESS it is an airport, or courthouse.

Schools, church, bars, I am carrying.. If they see my gun, and ask me to leave.. I must, and will. In Minnesota, you are not required legally to abide by those signs..

 

[presz]

The St Louis Arch has the craziest sign ever. It says "No guns or spring opening Kershaw knives". And they check you with a metal detector. They let me right in with my Buck Vantage no problems.

At the Houston Space Center it was no locking blades. I had my Kershaw JYD they took it, tagged it and gave it back when I left.

Sprint Center in Kansas City is the worst ever. Full airport style metal detectors no leatherman micros or small SAKs even. Big 12 Basketball tourney sucks big time with 1 hr+ wait to get in.

 

[skippyW]

So... everything is a weapon? If I try to use a pillow as a weapon it can cause injury. Even a straw can poke somebody in the eye. Laws like this are the reason why so many people are against knives. Yes, a knife can do damage, but so can a pencil, pen, nail file, book, or any number of thousands of other things common in schools and offices. If a person wants to hurt somebody they have numerous options even if they evidence to follow the rules, but last I checked it is pretty hard to cut a package open with a flower or pillow.

Yes, a knife can be a weapon, but it is primarily a tool. Arguably more damage can be caused with a screwdriver, but a screwdriver is a tool, not a weapon. This kind of double standard is both stupid and ridiculous. I'm not saying ban everything or nothing, I am saying stop dumb, pointless, and detrimental restrictions.

Read it again:

Weapon: A firearm as defined in 18 USC §921 for purposes of the Gun-Free Schools Act or anything else that can cause physical injury or death when used to cause physical injury or death.

Your knife is NOT a weapon under this definition until you use it to inflict injury.

 

[scottabrandeberry]

Here in Michigan, state law says that carry of a folder with a blade longer than 3" is legal to carry as long as there is no intent to use it as a weapon; reading between the lines leads one to believe that carrying a folder with a blade less than 3" with the intent of using it as a weapon for self-defense is permissible. So, it's not a weapon until used as such. Of course, municipalities can and often do have more restrictive laws.

 

[midnightreport]

I keep calm and carry on (this also applies to my concealed firearms, pepper spray, flashlight, etc).

I carry everything concealed (and am licensed to do so) and I'm not exactly a menacing or threatening-looking guy. If someone notices my "more threatening" items and I'm asked to leave (which hasn't happened yet), I will happily comply.

In my home state of Oregon, the law as I understand it says that private property owners have the right to regulate what is and is not allowed on the premises they control. If someone willfully violates this and refuses to leave after being asked to do so, it's considered trespassing after warning. As long as no other crime is being committed and you comply with property owner's request, it isn't an issue.

Of course, I don't attempt to carry my knives and self-defense accoutrements through the airport or anywhere there are overt security screenings, but I justify carrying everywhere else by knowing that they are tools first and foremost, not weapons, and if a circumstance arises that those tools are really needed, both I and those around me will be glad I brought those tools with me.