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This sums up my own thinking.
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No weapons signs/zones. Obey or ignore?
- Thread starter BryanNomad
- Start date
This sums up my own thinking.
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Lastly, in before the lock, move, or stern warning from a mod. This is general, not W&C, let's stop the attacks, insults, and general rudeness.[/QUOTE]
Right on, it's ok to disagree with someone. It's not ok to call people names and insult their intelligence based on a post on a forum.
Right on, it's ok to disagree with someone. It's not ok to call people names and insult their intelligence based on a post on a forum.
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Thanks for doing the leg work, I was going to say that most likely carrying the fixed blade concealed was illegal (it is in most places)
As a parent of 2 elementary school students I openly carry a folder in my kids school and I would welcome any teacher/staff doing so and even using it responsibily in front of students (it would show them the correct way to use a knife as a tool and not a weapon that they might not otherwise be exposed to) but if I was to learn of a staff member carrying a ankle mounted fixed blade specifically as a weapon I would be calling the principal, the district and the local news, legal or not that's just rediclous. (And I'm an outspoken proponent of [properly trained and licensed] teachers / staff carrying firearms in school)
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I'm Bi Polar, and have PTSD, and currently cannot work because of them. I would never consider harming someone with a weapon of any kind unless it was a salf defense or defense of another situation. Mental illnesses do not equal pyschosis. Careful what you label.
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If you carry anything that can get you in legal trouble, and we all know a knife can, you had better care what the laws are where you carry them. Ignorance can still get you in legal trouble.
I agree the laws are flawed, but they are laws. Change the law, don't break it.
I have done my homework, and there is no law against using a knife for self defense. The term is displaying a knife furtively, which, I'm sure you researched, means in a threatening or dangerous manner. Carrying a knife and using it for self defense, so long as it is justified, is not furtively displating the knife, it is defending yourself. Believe me, if I pull a knife in self defense, it ain't just to show it and go 'boo'! It will be used. Also, the knife is neither a dirk or a dagger, which, by the way, are now legal so long as, again, they are not displayed furtively. It's a KABAR TDI, hardly a dirk.
Carrying an ankle knife to conceal it is not addressed in the law, only using a knife for the above criminal use. Concealment is a judgement call, because any traditional knife, that does not have a pocket clip, or a knife with a clip that is covered by a shirt could also be concealed. Concealment is not addressed except in the context of how it is used.
I did my homework a long time ago when I started collecting knives to avoid breaking the law. Wierd, huh?
As am I. Would I want a teacher using a pocket knife in class? I could personally care less, but others do, and I hate to see a good person lose their job over freaked out parents. Also, most kids are not accustomed to knives, especially in the classroom, so I do not think it is wise for a teacher to put them in such an environment. I would bet, however, the teachers have policies against using knives in the room, at least in the presence of children.
If a teacher is ok to carry a knife in class, what's the difference if it's in their pocket, purse, or on their neck, ankle, back, etc. Carrying a SD knife is carrying one. It's a little more than inconsistant to say one is ok, not the other. Anyone with a brain would see any knife as a knife, no matter the type, were they to need to protect students with it.
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It's really very simple: do you think you are above laws or the right of business to have rules regarding who they allow to do business there based on what they carry, or do you just have a flagrant dispregard for all of that?
Laws are laws. Give the laws the blow off, and you risk alot. Your life, but think about what you stand to lose.
Businesses have a right to refuse service, and can set rules regarding weapons (including knives) if the deem it necessary. You can ignore it, and be asked to leave or escorted out by security or police. Your choice as well. If it was your business, you would have the same rights, and that right should be respected by decent people. If you don't like the rules, don't work or do business there. Or disrespect the business and pay the price, whatever it is.
Why there is this elitest attitude from gun and knife owners that they'll do whatever they please wherever they please is beyond me. People wonder why there is a bad perception about gun and knife owners, look to those folks who give the finger to society and you'll get it.
Laws are laws. Give the laws the blow off, and you risk alot. Your life, but think about what you stand to lose.
Businesses have a right to refuse service, and can set rules regarding weapons (including knives) if the deem it necessary. You can ignore it, and be asked to leave or escorted out by security or police. Your choice as well. If it was your business, you would have the same rights, and that right should be respected by decent people. If you don't like the rules, don't work or do business there. Or disrespect the business and pay the price, whatever it is.
Why there is this elitest attitude from gun and knife owners that they'll do whatever they please wherever they please is beyond me. People wonder why there is a bad perception about gun and knife owners, look to those folks who give the finger to society and you'll get it.
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I apologize, no offense was intended, I was just trying to make a point, just because their work allows knives, doesn't mean they should have Cart Blanche when it comes to carryin' a knife on the premises, who vouches for their stability?
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In Oklahoma, the only real places that you have to worry about a knife are in a school or government building. And the post office really doesn't count where pocket knives are concerned. Even for firearms, the new laws in Oklahoma make it simple trespass if you bring a gun into an area posted as no weapons allowed. And then only if you caught and you refuse to leave when asked. The only place that you can't have a weapon in the car is a school parking lot. I'm a network engineer and have several school districts that I consult for on occasion. When I go to one of them, everything stays at home. I leave my handgun in the car at the Post Office, but the EDC knife stays in my pocket. And I haven't been in a federal building or courthouse in many years.
To be perfectly fair, if you really think you can pull your knife in a school or other area even where it is not expressly forbidden, use it for what you deem is "defense" and not have to answer a boatload of questions and bring at least some trouble down on you, you're probably fooling yourself.
Maybe you will have to do that one day. But even for that, I guarantee you, you'll be answering questions and likely facing consequences of those actions, even if you deemed them right at the time. Others may not agree, and in such a situation it won't be about what you did, but about what you can prove you did or didn't do and whether you can prove it was entirely justified.
I wouldnt mess with schools... If it comes down to a technicality vs a childs safety in a court of law, child's safety wins every time. There are more than enough grey areas and loopholes in the law to get somebody thrown in jail. At least thats how ive interpreted the judicial system...
And i dont understand why there's such a large opposition to all knives. I think that SAK's and other similar non-locking knives should be considered as tools in all situations. If someone could use a SAK effectively as a weapon, id just be impressed.
And i dont understand why there's such a large opposition to all knives. I think that SAK's and other similar non-locking knives should be considered as tools in all situations. If someone could use a SAK effectively as a weapon, id just be impressed.
Excellent point Stoney.
There are enough grey areas within school law to make it very dangerous even for supposed law-abiding citizens to try ANYTHING in the name of defense while on school grounds. Trust me, I know. Unless a person can take time and effort to prove that they had no other option (meaning they had to use the knife and nothing less would have worked) they're looking at serious problems.
I don't think it's possible at this point. There's too much paranoia in our society these days and a move away from self-sufficiency and a concurrent move from seeing both firearms and knives as tools that can be abused by people with ill intent to evil objects in and of themselves. Until you buy something in one of those evil clamshell packages and try to open it with a pair of safety scissors, that is.
I live in Virginia which has fairly vague laws about knife carry; basically "anything goes" with a few exceptions (automatics, balisongs, etc. - not a real issue for someone who just likes to have a practical knife in their pocket) *but* if you carry
the exact law is here
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+18.2-308
There is also a law that limits the length of a pocketknife carried onto school property at 3" but I'll be damned if I can find it now (it's not even linked on the VSP site even though the first q&a in the FAQ is about knives http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Firearms.shtm - good job VSP!)
Case law is a mess, and basically using a knife as a tool is legal and using a knife as a weapon is generally not (duh.) However, the definitions of same are reminiscent of Justice Potter Stewart's attempts to define pornography...
Now I do have a concealed firearms permit - not that I even have a handgun or a holster; I got it more as my way of making a statement that I support the rights of law abiding citizens to carry as they see fit, and be counted among the statistics of those legally authorized to do so. HOWEVER - while I am perfectly within my rights to carry a loaded handgun, that doesn't exempt me from any provisions of state knife law! Go figure! (of course, you can't carry a handgun on school property either, so at least that part makes sense. But, while the CCW allows me to carry a handgun, which by any definition is a weapon even if I'm not using it as such, there's still the grey area of whether or not the knife on me at any given time is in fact a weapon or not, and if it is found to be so, then I'm guilty.)
But the real gotcha is that I live in *Northern* Virginia, AKA land of the Feds. So not only may I be in VA, MD, or DC on any given day but it's entirely possible that I might need to enter a Federal building for some reason or other. The pertinent law there is http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/930 which clearly defines what is considered a "weapon" - any pocketknife with a blade longer than 2.5" (well, not exactly - it defines one with a blade *less* than 2.5" as *not* a weapon. But it is probably safe to assume that if prosecuted under this law that carrying a knife with a blade longer than 2.5" would be considered prima facie evidence of guilt.)
Now here's the funny thing. Try to find a good quality knife with a blade less than 2.5". Pretty much no "traditional" will qualify, despite the fact that even in today's paranoid climate most people would see them as relatively non-threatening. However, a Kershaw Scallion *does* qualify (and is my single "fed-safe" knife at this time) and is kind of a menacing looking little thing.
But my point is, I seriously doubt that there's any great will to change Federal law on this point, as colossally asinine as it is.
It's not "elitist." It's pragmatic. I don't know what has happened in this country over the past 30 years or so. By the time I was in middle school, pretty much every male student owned both a pocketknife and at least a .22 - this was not any sign of a violent or militaristic culture, it was just the way it was. Knives are handy, and .22s are fun, and good training for the 30-30 or .30-06 that you'd get a few years later so you could go deer hunting with your dad, grandfather, or uncle(s). (or the 12-gauge for hunting duck, pheasant, rabbit, whatever.) Today the sight of a gun rack in the back window of a pickup gets a look of disapproval from the general public, almost as bad as using the n-word in public. Not that I would have one today anyway - I'd be too scared that someone wouldn't respect my property and smash a window to take my rifle or shotgun and then use it for who knows what purpose. Far better to have it hidden and locked up.
The fact that a normal everyday citizen has to worry about the contents of his pockets with regard to perfectly normal, everyday tools is worrying in the extreme.
Now here's where I'll probably not win friends nor influence people. I blame the NRA for a lot of this mess. No, guns have nothing to do with knives other than the fact that most people who like one also like/own the other. But their completely over the top positions on some gun control issues have turned a lot of urban people whose only experience with firearms is worrying about them in the wrong hands completely against firearms and made them think of gun owners as a group as akin to snake-handling Pentecostals, when the truth is far more complex and nuanced. Sure, there's a fringe in every group, but there are also plenty of people who grew up in rural areas to whom a firearm is nothing more than recreation and/or a tool to provide fresh meat to eat who are lumped in with the whackjobs. (and those same people probably also possess and carry high-quality folding and/or fixed blade knives with blades longer than officially approved, for the purposes of field-dressing same fresh meat.)
Unfortunately, it is very unpopular to express the opinions I just did (at least where I live) so changing the law... probably not ever going to happen.
I'm not one of those people who really thinks about the downfall of our government nor to I have a massive cache of canned goods and survival tools. However I can tell you this - in the (very unlikely) event of a complete breakdown of law and order, I'm bugging the hell out of NoVA because this place is full of a hell of a lot of people who are completely incapable of fending for themselves, and it would become a very bad scene very fast. A realistic assessment of my own outdoors/survival skills is "soft ass office jockey" but I look like Daniel Boone compared to 99% of the people around here...
If you use anything - even your bare hands - as "defense" anywhere that will most likely be true. Doubly so on school grounds. "He started it" didn't even work when I was in grade school.
Best plan is to try to conversationally defuse a bad situation or remove yourself from it to avoid legal unpleasantness, even if you're in the right and the other party is clearly the aggressor.
Exception (in my book, but not necessarily legally) - when someone else is in danger and removing yourself from the situation leaves that other person in danger.
That's a very true exception, sir. In fact by law a teacher would in most cases be required to act in defense of a student. The catch is they (the teacher) is also likely to get in big trouble if they are trying to protect that student from another student, even if it's just pulling one off of the other. It's very, very easy these days for teachers to get in trouble for such things.
Having said that, it's just as easy for them to get in trouble for not doing something. It's a risky no-win situation in the current climate.
Conversely the other thing you said is also true. A person, even teacher against student if that student is aggressively attacking, can use their hands if that student is using fists as well.
The only thing we can't do is "up the ante" i.e. use a hammer against someone using their fists.
By the way I'd love to hear some stories about the 99% of folks in your neck of the woods.
By the way I'd love to hear some stories about the 99% of folks in your neck of the woods.
(drifting off topic) I don't have any really good stories; it's just the general climate. Most people around here are white collar not blue (self mostly included; I've straddled the line for a good number of years.) When your car breaks, you take it to a mechanic. Water leak? Call a plumber. New light fixtures? Call an electrician.
I actually take pride in knowing a little bit about how stuff works and being able to fix something if it breaks and I'm by myself. But around here, touching tools and/or hunting and fishing seem to be things that lower class people do and are to be avoided. Drives me up a freakin' wall it does...
Of course that attitude extends to interpersonal interactions as well. People fear confrontation to an extreme; that's the job of the police. So there's all sorts of passive-aggressive rudeness on a constant basis - it's apparently OK to drive like a complete ass, but honking one's horn is "rude." It's OK to walk slowly down the exact middle of the sidewalk, but commenting on it is "rude." Et cetera ad nauseam.
Someday I'll leave here, but unfortunately, the job market in this area isn't actually that bad compared to most places that I *want* to live.
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I thought fixed blades were legal in California as long as they are showing on your belt, I see few people doing this with no problems. I've done it before but not in a highly populated area. California may be a huge liberal state but I think the knife laws are actually decent, can someone please update me with the Cal laws on knives.
There are several knife laws in California. To answer your specific question, it is legal to openly carry any fixed-blade under CA state law, with no limit on size or design. And there is no prohibition on the open carry of double-edged knives.
Some cities/counties do have their own laws that are more restrictive than state law. But not here in San diego where I live.