No ZT for me sorry

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jill jackson said:
I have many framelocks and liner locks with much more solid lockup than that. Some are even ZT. I just prefer the ones without mushy lockup and that will hold up to spine taps. If it doesn't matter to someone else that is their business.
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Thanks Jill. My 3 ZT’s (0450, 0460, 0609) all have perfectly solid lockup. They may fail the spine wack test but I find that test pointless.
 
Two posts moved to the DA thread. Now the the thread has a positive spin, trolling posts are not welcome.
 
Out of morbid curiousity, a couple months back, I torture tested my Kershaw CQCXL. I eventually broke the tip off about a 1/2". The "test" also involved several hard, hard "spine whacks" against the edge of particle board and I managed to chop about an inch into it (with the spine) before becoming bored. I've been considering ZT's for a bit...but I'm no longer sure.
 
MSchott said:
Thanks Jill. My 3 ZT’s (0450, 0460, 0609) all have perfectly solid lockup. They may fail the spine wack test but I find that test pointless.
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The first YouTube videos that Jill posted showed a couple ZTs failing a pretty gentle spine tap. I've had locking knives that failed a light spine whack, and those knives could also have their lock defeated with just hand pressure, but usually the defeat comes suddenly.

People say, "Look at the slip joints. They have no lock and no one worries about getting cut." If you know that your knife has no protection from closing on your fingers, you're going to be careful. But if you are counting on a lock and it suddenly fails at relatively low pressure, the blade is coming back at you fast and unexpectedly, making it really dangerous.

I respect your opinion -- it's shared by a lot of good knife people on this forum. But for me, if a lock fails under fairly gentle challenges, it's poorly made and dangerous.

My sense is that most ZTs can handle a reasonable spine whack challenge, but obviously a lot cannot. It's not hard to make a decent knife that can pass that test, and Spyderco even considers it an essential test. If a knife comes with a lock, it ought to be an effective lock.
 
Twindog said:
The first YouTube videos that Jill posted showed a couple ZTs failing a pretty gentle spine tap. I've had locking knives that failed a light spine whack, and those knives could also have their lock defeated with just hand pressure, but usually the defeat comes suddenly.

People say, "Look at the slip joints. They have no lock and no one worries about getting cut." If you know that your knife has no protection from closing on your fingers, you're going to be careful. But if you are counting on a lock and it suddenly fails at relatively low pressure, the blade is coming back at you fast and unexpectedly, making it really dangerous.

I respect your opinion -- it's shared by a lot of good knife people on this forum. But for me, if a lock fails under fairly gentle challenges, it's poorly made and dangerous.

My sense is that most ZTs can handle a reasonable spine whack challenge, but obviously a lot cannot. It's not hard to make a decent knife that can pass that test, and Spyderco even considers it an essential test. If a knife comes with a lock, it ought to be an effective lock.
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Maybe I’m not understanding where pressure on the spine is applicable in using a folding knife.

I’ve mentioned this before in this context but to me it’s like Cold Steel’s marketing where they tell you how good their lock is but in a way no one would ever use a knife.
 
MSchott said:
Maybe I’m not understanding where pressure on the spine is applicable in using a folding knife.

I’ve mentioned this before in this context but to me it’s like Cold Steel’s marketing where they tell you how good their lock is but in a way no one would ever use a knife.
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Spyderco said years ago spine whacks show a lock is well fitted . Since I've never seen a Spyderco fail a few light taps on the back of a locked blade maybe they know what they're talking about.
 
jill jackson said:
Spyderco said years ago spine whacks show a lock is well fitted . Since I've never seen a Spyderco fail a few light taps on the back of a locked blade maybe they know what they're talking about.
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What does well fitted mean? I would say that ZT specs a fairly light lock up. About 20% vs for example CRK which is 50+%. But my CRK's and y ZT's are equally solid when I try to move the blade.

I understand that I may have different requirements in a knife than many here, or that these things don't matter as much to me as many on this forum. I'm not a hard user of my knives and the ZT's cut cardboard, zip ties, food, etc without issue. The reality is that unless you use a knife in your daily job ( I don't except to open packages as needed, most of the knives we discuss from a lowly $20.00 Buck to a Hinderer are not going to fail. When I need something to cut in a specific scenario like trimming back a tree or perennial, cooking, etc..., I use a tool specific to that application not a folding knife.
 
Its been said many ways and many, many times here on BF .If you MISS USE a folder (any folder ! ) you're asking for trouble ! All tools are made for a certain job and if you push your luck , you're going to Bleed...
 
MSchott said:
What does well fitted mean? I would say that ZT specs a fairly light lock up. About 20% vs for example CRK which is 50+%. But my CRK's and y ZT's are equally solid when I try to move the blade.

I understand that I may have different requirements in a knife than many here, or that these things don't matter as much to me as many on this forum. I'm not a hard user of my knives and the ZT's cut cardboard, zip ties, food, etc without issue. The reality is that unless you use a knife in your daily job ( I don't except to open packages as needed, most of the knives we discuss from a lowly $20.00 Buck to a Hinderer are not going to fail. When I need something to cut in a specific scenario like trimming back a tree or perennial, cooking, etc..., I use a tool specific to that application not a folding knife.
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You can see the picture of my 0909 vs my Military. The Spyderco is much better fitted. As a result the Military can't be easily defeated by light spine taps and the ZT can.
 
MSchott said:
What does well fitted mean? I would say that ZT specs a fairly light lock up. About 20% vs for example CRK which is 50+%. But my CRK's and y ZT's are equally solid when I try to move the blade.

I understand that I may have different requirements in a knife than many here, or that these things don't matter as much to me as many on this forum. I'm not a hard user of my knives and the ZT's cut cardboard, zip ties, food, etc without issue. The reality is that unless you use a knife in your daily job ( I don't except to open packages as needed, most of the knives we discuss from a lowly $20.00 Buck to a Hinderer are not going to fail. When I need something to cut in a specific scenario like trimming back a tree or perennial, cooking, etc..., I use a tool specific to that application not a folding knife.
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I am not sure what you are trying to argue for or prove. That your use of folding knives does not involve any pressure on the blade spine does not mean everybody else uses folders in the exactly same way as you. My SAKs never accidently fold on my fingers because I know exactly what the limit of the slipjoint is and more importantly the manufacturer never marketed SAKs as "built like a tank." My concern is "built like a tank" gives knife users the false impression that the lock can definitely withstand moderate spine tapping while in practice more than a few examples showed the opposite.

Or maybe everyone thinks it is acceptable and normal for a built-like-a-tank folder to fold due to moderate spine tap? Reading the last few pages I could not draw that conclusion.
 
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MSchott said:
What does well fitted mean? I would say that ZT specs a fairly light lock up. About 20% vs for example CRK which is 50+%. But my CRK's and y ZT's are equally solid when I try to move the blade.

I understand that I may have different requirements in a knife than many here, or that these things don't matter as much to me as many on this forum. I'm not a hard user of my knives and the ZT's cut cardboard, zip ties, food, etc without issue. The reality is that unless you use a knife in your daily job ( I don't except to open packages as needed, most of the knives we discuss from a lowly $20.00 Buck to a Hinderer are not going to fail. When I need something to cut in a specific scenario like trimming back a tree or perennial, cooking, etc..., I use a tool specific to that application not a folding knife.
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Some don't use their knives often, but I've had instances when working with a folder where I accidentally bump the spine against a hard object. A lock that fails a light spine whack would be dangerous in that scenario, and I won't bet my fingers on that never happening while working. A lock ought to be more reliable than some of these frame/liner locks.
 
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The ultimate answer to these problems = more Tri-ad locks and less spandex ! :p

Seriously , for most average use these knives would work fine . But someone who buys a "hard use " folder is more expecting a near fixed blade performance for emergency , survival , or SD . Such a knife should withstand torture testing that exceeds the norm for a casual folder . cue : Cold Steel Proof Video !

Actually , this ZT did PDG ! :cool::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
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jill jackson said:
Spyderco said years ago spine whacks show a lock is well fitted . Since I've never seen a Spyderco fail a few light taps on the back of a locked blade maybe they know what they're talking about.
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Interesting point. I know for a fact that Jesse Jarosz whacks the absolute shit out of spine of his folders as test before selling them.
 
Popsickle said:
Interesting point. I know for a fact that Jesse Jarosz whacks the absolute shit out of spine of his folders as test before selling them.
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His website cautions against such activity.

My Knives are cutting tools, nothing else. If you hammer, pry, baton, throw or in any other way abuse your knife, the guarantee is void. Use your knife for cutting. If you want an ax, I will make you one, don’t use your knife to chop down a tree.
 
sharp_edge said:
I am not sure what you are trying to argue for or prove. That your use of folding knives does not involve any pressure on the blade spine does not mean everybody else uses folders in the exactly same way as you. My SAKs never accidently fold on my fingers because I know exactly what the limit of the slipjoint is and more importantly the manufacturer never marketed SAKs as "built like a tank." My concern is "built like a tank" gives knife users the false impression that the lock can definitely withstand moderate spine tapping while in practice more than a few examples showed the opposite.

Or maybe everyone thinks it is acceptable and normal for a built-like-a-tank folder to fold due to moderate spine tap? Reading the last few pages I could not draw that conclusion.
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I’m not trying to argue or prove anything. I will say that I have 100% trust in my ZT’s for how I use them.
 
Mossyhorn said:
His website cautions against such activity.

My Knives are cutting tools, nothing else. If you hammer, pry, baton, throw or in any other way abuse your knife, the guarantee is void. Use your knife for cutting. If you want an ax, I will make you one, don’t use your knife to chop down a tree.
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I think your missing the point. Jill commented that a properly seated lock should withstand the light spine tapping that is causing some or even a lot of ZT folders to fail. Jesse does it in order to seat the lockbar a smidge farther, but at the same time cautions against actual spine whacking. I agree that anything outside of cutting is abuse. We’re simply talking about properly seated locks vs a company that is seemingly not taking the extra steps to ensure proper figment. No one is advocating that abuse is ok.
 
Popsickle said:
I think your missing the point. Jill commented that a properly seated lock should withstand the light spine tapping that is causing some or even a lot of ZT folders to fail. Jesse does it in order to seat the lockbar a smidge farther, but at the same time cautions against actual spine whacking. I agree that anything outside of cutting is abuse. We’re simply talking about properly seated locks vs a company that is seemingly not taking the extra steps to ensure proper figment. No one is advocating that abuse is ok.
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So you're changing your comment. You stated that he whacks the absolute shit out of the spine.
I didn't miss your point at all.
 
I just spine tapped a Kershaw-Emerson 4KXL that I have and it passed with flying colors. I gave it 5 moderate whacks against a piece of 3/4 plywood and the lock held just fine. Other than the mediocre steel used in these Kershaw-Emerson knives they're built well and are exceptional knives for the money. Over the years I've had 2 Kershaw Blurrs, several Bucks, a Chris Reeve Sebenza, and a few other liner and frame lock knives of various brands that could be defeated by light spine taps or hand pressure only. Seems to me that liner and frame locks are kinda hit or miss when it comes to reliability.
 
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