Notes from the Editor....

daniel, it is obvious to me that BR, Carolyn and Bruce don't think poorly of everyone that participates on knife forums. If they did, they would poorly of quite a few members of the ABS, including a couple that are on the board.

I believe that the ABS is a fine organization, that could be better. My hope is that the board is open to implementing changes that will make the organization better, and stronger.


the abs does what it can w the limited amount of money they have
EVERYTHING else is on a volunteer basis
any of u forumits wanna vol to help what u see as abs short comeings???
if so speak up if not shut up
harley
 
Keith,

As Daniel said I am not one to "sugar coat" things....ask my kids.

I have learned 5 things that have helped me in life and business over the last 25 years.

1) The Maximum Effective Range is Zero Meters.

2) In the Infantry we adapt, we improvise, we overcome. Thank you Gunny Highway.

3) In every aspect of your business you as the business owner are responsible for all things, good, bad or indifferent. Working for yourself you will find #1 carries even more weight.

4) There is an "I" in team. Each team is made up of Individuals. Each Individual has strengths and weakness's. Therefore to be successful a team has to compensate for its weakness's and focus on its strengths. Right now the ABS is not compensating for its weakness's.

5) Do or Do Not...There is no Try. Thank you Yoda.

In the business world no one wants to hear excuses. They don't care what your problems are (after all they are your problems...your fault..you fix them), you are being paid for results.



Larry,

I asked this to Josh last night. Perhaps you know. What does the charter/non-profit allow the ABS to do?

The problems have been identified. I am quite certain solutions can be found.

However, the Charter/Non-Profit seems to be providing limitations on how these problems can be addressed.

So it is not as simple as "Put up or Shut up".

So Larry, how about getting with the ABS BOD and find out what the constraints are.

I would appreciate it when you get this information next week if you would forward a copy to me. I'll have my team look it over as well.

WWG
He adapts, he improvises, he overcomes.
 
Hi Keith,

You might want to check your facts. Especially in light of some of the comments that BR made at the Fisk Micro-Show.

Better yet, why don't you get Carol and/or BR to come on to Blade Forums and "Clarify" what they meant.

I don't think you are in a position to speak for them, nor should try to put your self in that light.

WWG

Could someone clue me in on that? If there was more forum-bashing going on, I'm surprised that none of the attendees said anything.

Roger
 
Having spent quite a bit of my life in Corporate America working for what is arguably one of the most successful companies in the world, I'd like to share something I've learned over the years.

Organizations give short shrift to anyone (insider or outsider) who simply tells them what their problems are. Identifying the problem is the easy part. If you see a problem, you are responsible for making the solution happen--whether it be by finding a person or group close to the problem in the organization and teaming up with them to make a solution happen, or demonstrating the value of your solution by implementing it on your own.
 
Hi Blue,

Agree 100%. Several problems have been brought up. Solutions are simple for some problems, more difficult for others.

The problem is not knowing what the parameters are.

Im sure in the company you worked for those inside knew the parameters. As well if outside help was brought in, the corporate parameters were explained to them.

WWG
 
Hi Roger,

You would be amazed how many custom knife buyers/makers don't post on the Internet.

Give it a couple of months you will hear "comments" coming from those you know.

WWG
 
Hi Roger,

You would be amazed how many custom knife buyers/makers don't post on the Internet.

Give it a couple of months you will hear "comments" coming from those you know.

WWG

So true - but a number of the Microshow attendees are forum participants - hence my comment. I'll sit tight and wait for the scoop.

Roger
 
Although there are 15 or so members who continually post, there are many hundreds more that read and ingest information and decide for themselves.

This particular thread carries both the best and the worst aspects of forums. It contains individual opinions, worthwhile information, and spirited dialog, spoken with consideration....

And then it also contains misinformation, misinterpretations, indefensible arguments, outright rude behaviour, and childish namecalling from more than one participant.

I can determine the difference. So can hundreds more.... ;)

I still like this place.

Coop
 
Hi Roger,

You would be amazed how many custom knife buyers/makers don't post on the Internet.

Give it a couple of months you will hear "comments" coming from those you know.

WWG
Ummmmm.............I heard comments from a few guys at Blade regarding some posts I made on here. Just because folks aren't posting doesn't mean they aren't reading or hearing about posts:eek:
 
Some editors do read forums, as I do find it a way to be aware of what is going on with this aspect of the knife world. And I do find some of the posts informative--and some, especially when I know the poster, has had my wife looking into the room and ask, "Why in the world are you laughing so loud?"

My contribution to this thread originally was not a post but a column in Knives Illustrated in which I commented in a non-specific generalization that just because one has a computer, hours to spend reading and posting to forums, and an opinion--does not mean one have a clue about what they are saying in that posting. I stand by that statement.

An idiot in an insane asylum with a computer can post to an online forum with the same ease as someone with 40 years in the game.

There are plenty of people who post on forums who do have a clue about what they speak. They've paid their dues, they've done the research, they've been intelligent observers. (One of the posters here I pay to write for Knives Illustrated by the way). If I'm buying articles from a poster I don't think it can be said that I don't have respect for some posters on the online forums.

Unfortunately, to some, whether the poster knows what he is talking about or does not, there is no filter, there is no credibility meter, the statements are just added to the thread, same size type, same type face, and no way for the less informed to tell the difference--so it ALL becomes gospel to them.

That is one of the advantages of knife magazines. As editors we filter out a lot of the crap. You will not read in a knife magazine that some knifemaker "pours his blades". (I once read that misstatement about Randall Knives in an early online forum). Collectively the years in the knife game of Steve Shackleford, Steve Dick, Mark Zalesky and myself will exceed close to 20 years in every instance. We are paid to know the subject, and put together a mix of interesting informative articles that readers will like to read. If we fail in that then don't subscribe--it is an open marketplace.

But also realize there is a possibility that if you do not read ALL the knife magazines there is a chance, a darn good chance, that between the writing of the editors and writers of the various publications you will often learn something you didn't know and that same information and insight will not always be available in a forum. And in a knife magazine you will know for sure when it is published there that at least two other people with the background to know the difference have looked at that article for credibility, accuracy, and content.

That doesn't happen in an online forum--there is no filter. That is not to say I do not learn things on here too--I do, but I also find I have to spend a lot of time wading through sometimes useless blather and personal banter to find them. There quite a bit of wading to be done in this thread alone--as well as some dead-on advice if those involved have enough presence of mind to follow it. Unfortunately sometimes it is hard to tell the good advice from the blather.

I read knife magazines (all of them), and I surf forums (although I do not post much), and the knife industry gains from both. If you are serious about knives I don't really think you can afford to neglect either.

If you only read forums and do not read knife magazines I would venture to say you are only half-informed.

I read everything I can about knives for several reasons. 1. I like to read everything I can about knives. 2. I want to stay informed about every aspect of knives. 3. If I am not informed, then obviously I would be ignorant about some things going on in the world of knives--and as this is my life/profession/obsession, I care too much to let that happen.
 
That may well be true, Daniel, and I surely would like to believe it to be so.

However, since Mrs. Hughes neither participates on nor even reads the forums, all we have to go by on this point is what she wrote in her editorial. Since she spent a fair bit of time emphasising the importance of responsibility in journalism, we can fairly assume that, at a minimum, she meant what she wrote. The comments attributed to B.R. at the ABS banquet were far more strong (I wasn't there, but multiple parties who were confirm those comments) and don't leave much room for misinterpretation.

Roger

Now THAT is an interesting point regarding journalism, sir. I was having a discussion with my brother the other night regarding when the press all of a sudden decided that they were fair, balanced, responsible and unbiased. There is nothing in our history to support that. But perhaps the more relevant point in this discussion is that the forums are in no way "journalistic" in nature. They are more akin to an electronic version of "Speaker's Corner" in Hyde Park in London. Arguably anything is fair game short of whatver would be considered the internet equivelant of "shouting FIRE in a crowded theater." It is up to the moderators and participants alone to regulate the forums as they see fit. There are some forums where this thread would have been locked down by the third page and some folks would have been banned. Although I found some of the posts on this thread to be out of line, in the long run, I think that there was enough healthy discussion sprinkled in with the insults and name calling to make it a worthwhile read. You, the reader, get to be your own editor in here.:thumbup: I like the forums. I have learned a ton of stuff from folks on them and, of the 6 embarrasing excuses for knives that I have put out into the public domain, 5 found there way there through the forums. The 6th one was bought by a family memeber as a gift for a hunting buddy.....I know that a LOT of knifemaker's early wroks ends up going that way...lol.
 
Some editors do read forums, as I do find it a way to be aware of what is going on with this aspect of the knife world. And I do find some of the posts informative--and some, especially when I know the poster, has had my wife looking into the room and ask, "Why in the world are you laughing so loud?"

My contribution to this thread originally was not a post but a column in Knives Illustrated in which I commented in a non-specific generalization that just because one has a computer, hours to spend reading and posting to forums, and an opinion--does not mean one have a clue about what they are saying in that posting. I stand by that statement.

An idiot in an insane asylum with a computer can post to an online forum with the same ease as someone with 40 years in the game.

There are plenty of people who post on forums who do have a clue about what they speak. They've paid their dues, they've done the research, they've been intelligent observers. (One of the posters here I pay to write for Knives Illustrated by the way). If I'm buying articles from a poster I don't think it can be said that I don't have respect for some posters on the online forums.

Unfortunately, to some, whether the poster knows what he is talking about or does not, there is no filter, there is no credibility meter, the statements are just added to the thread, same size type, same type face, and no way for the less informed to tell the difference--so it ALL becomes gospel to them.

That is one of the advantages of knife magazines. As editors we filter out a lot of the crap. You will not read in a knife magazine that some knifemaker "pours his blades". (I once read that misstatement about Randall Knives in an early online forum). Collectively the years in the knife game of Steve Shackleford, Steve Dick, Mark Zalesky and myself will exceed close to 20 years in every instance. We are paid to know the subject, and put together a mix of interesting informative articles that readers will like to read. If we fail in that then don't subscribe--it is an open marketplace.

But also realize there is a possibility that if you do not read ALL the knife magazines there is a chance, a darn good chance, that between the writing of the editors and writers of the various publications you will often learn something you didn't know and that same information and insight will not always be available in a forum. And in a knife magazine you will know for sure when it is published there that at least two other people with the background to know the difference have looked at that article for credibility, accuracy, and content.

That doesn't happen in an online forum--there is no filter. That is not to say I do not learn things on here too--I do, but I also find I have to spend a lot of time wading through sometimes useless blather and personal banter to find them. There quite a bit of wading to be done in this thread alone--as well as some dead-on advice if those involved have enough presence of mind to follow it. Unfortunately sometimes it is hard to tell the good advice from the blather.

I read knife magazines (all of them), and I surf forums (although I do not post much), and the knife industry gains from both. If you are serious about knives I don't really think you can afford to neglect either.

If you only read forums and do not read knife magazines I would venture to say you are only half-informed.

I read everything I can about knives for several reasons. 1. I like to read everything I can about knives. 2. I want to stay informed about every aspect of knives. 3. If I am not informed, then obviously I would be ignorant about some things going on in the world of knives--and as this is my life/profession/obsession, I care too much to let that happen.

Good point.....I try to read everything that I can get my hands on because I am an info junkie. I have even been TRYING to read the copy of Excalibur that I picked up at SICAC:D
 
I contacted my webmaster to explore the web-cast idea for the hammer-in. As it turns out to do a web-cast you need a special computer, and your own server not to mention the special camera(s) and cables for hook up. He also said the costliest part could be the space on the Internet to do it. Bottom line is I asked him what it would cost and he said easily 3000-$10000. And it is not something that could be passed from hammer-in to hammer-in.

He did say though shooting video of it and posting it is easy like some of you have said. I do not have a digital video camera and probably won't be able to fit one in our budget for some time but I'm sure I could find one to use for the weekend.

The bottom line is that the web-cast idea won't work, though I thought it was a good idea.
 
It's a good idea josh. Maybe borrow the camera, shoot it and post it. I know you would have interest in the product.
 
A few things I have learned or were re-inforced by reading most of this thread (not in any particular order):

Constructive criticism is easier to take but a slap in the face will generate more action on the surface. Deep down cooperation works better in this type of business.

The statements made by Carolyn were not quite as strong as they came across as written. I know Carolyn, BR and Bruce Voyles pretty well and know they do not have a total lack of respect for everyone that post on knife forums.

The ABS is a good organization. The leadership is slow to react but they will listen if things are presented in a way that is reasonable and does not suggest radical change. They are very protective of their “Tax Exempt” Educational status. This is different from a standard non-profit organization.

WWG is kind of opinionated and doesn’t care if readers like what he says or not. He calls it as he sees it based on his personal experience. Knifemakers would do well to pay attention. Don’t expect sugar coating.

Speaking of a total lack of sugar coating, Larry Harley. Larry went through a rough time recently. The ABS, ABS directors and factions within the organization were there to help when he needed it most. Larry is loyal and don’t expect him to ever turn his back on those who came to his aid. Also if you attack his friend you attack him.

More on Larry, I am glad to read you are willing to get back in Cutting Competitions. I think every knifemaker should. It is a great learning experience.

Ed Fowler writes well and from what I have heard and read, does do a lot of testing. I would really like to see if his research performs as well as he says. I have a few connections and would be honored to help get something set up that is fair and entertaining. I still don’t understand the “changes in the ABS” that have him up-set.

I don’t understand a lot of forum shorthand.

Josh Smith is one to put his money where his mouth is. A great asset to any organization and to the knife community. I hope he becomes an ABS board member.

Conflict in knife forums attracts attention like the magazines at the checkout counter at the grocery store. I know there is a lot of BS but I read it anyway.

Personal attacks waste a lot of forum space and cause me to not read posts that may be important. It takes a lot of time to weed out the good from the waste of time posts.

Daniel

I do not think that I have seen so much from Danial before. The above makes it clear why he enjoys so much respect in this industry. Great knives alone are not enough. Ed Henry's work was admired by everyone, sadly, he did not know how to be kind or even polite.
 
He did say though shooting video of it and posting it is easy like some of you have said. I do not have a digital video camera and probably won't be able to fit one in our budget for some time but I'm sure I could find one to use for the weekend.

The bottom line is that the web-cast idea won't work, though I thought it was a good idea.

Actually, I think this is the best way to go - find a friend w/a digital camera, have 'em film it... yes, it will be "amatuerish" in form, but still, if done with a maker's input, instructional. You can then simply load it to your computer and put a link to it on your website if you have one or in one of those threads like some makers have done when posting about a specific knife they document as it is built or, even, on Youtube! And if there's enough interest, this might be a good idea for any Hammerin-style event to follow. It will either raise non-makers interest to get into the pursuit, or it will help educate the likes of me, a simple collector, to get to know the individuals in the art and the different ways things do get done...

Heck, it even might become a niche to fill - traveling hammerin/knife show documentarian!! :thumbup:

And it doesn't have to rely on any organization to say yea or nay to it being done.

Not being a member of the ABS, I can't say one way or the other as to what it's all about... But I can say I have been reading the mags for quite some time, and the forums for just a few years less... And it has been the forums that have allowed me to know more of and about the personalities in the realm of blademaking than the shows do as there aren't as many out here in the Northwest as back east; and the magazines can produce confusion, too... something about what someone once wrote about John Fitch seemed to cause a storm years ago...... I can say, from my perspective, that to totally bash one or the other viewpoints without exploring both is, well, rather ignorant and narrow minded.

I have learned a heck of a lot from the forums, but it has taken time to learn how to seperate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak, where as TennKnifeman was pretty spot on about what one reads in the magazines - someone has already taken care of the chaff, most of the time, and given me the wheat... but in a more "sanatized" form and with more pretty pictures! :D
 
Could someone clue me in on that? If there was more forum-bashing going on, I'm surprised that none of the attendees said anything.

Roger

It wasn't a big deal, or anything worth mentioning here.

There was no discussion what so ever with Mrs. Hudges regarding forums, as we were careful not to place a cloud over the purpose for which she was there, that being drawing for the BFB Bowie winner. It was her 10 year anniversary to the day since being diagnosed with breast cancer.

We all enjoyed her and BR's company and took in his knife knowledge, however he did make a negative comment towards forums during the question & answer portion of his talk after someone asked a question regarding MS knife quality. Myself and others let it pass as I didn't feel Jerry's Show was the place to debate the issue. Jerry appropriately ended the discussion period and we moved on with the program.
Then we all enjoyed BIG slabs of prime rib and got along very well.

All discussions were very positive and productive. Actually we had a very productive discussion earlier in the day ignited by Steve Shackleford's seminar.
 
Actually we had a very productive discussion earlier in the day ignited by Steve Shackleford's seminar.
You mentioned this more than once. Please describe the context? Might as well here. Sounds upbeat and right on. That's no surprise from SS.

TennKnifeman: Excellent clarification. Thank you, Bruce. :thumbup:


Coop
 
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