Notes from the Editor....

I debated quite awhile wether to post on this subject or not and finally i can't control it anylonger:D. I have to agree with Carolyne and with steven both on this. My only problem with the forums has been the armchair experts in the knifemakeing world. This and another Forum are what really got me started makeing knives by lighting the fire within me. But!!!!!!!!!! as with anything else there are allot of posers and wanna be's out there on some of the forums available. if you aske a question on a certain aspect of knifemakeing lets use Heat Treating as an example you will recieve a certain amount of information from so called experts............most of the time. Now if you ask the same question about HT and Ed Fowler or Kevin Cashen reply you will not recieve the same amount of responses i feel that this is because you now have some people who are acknowledged master's in that particular field responding to your request for information. I believe that experimentation and challenging of old beliefs and standards can be a good thing but state that is what you are doing, don't try to put yourself off as the leading expert in your field. now this applies mainly to knifemakeing forums. This particular forum "custom and handmade" i believe is a different character alltogether. In here we seem to have an open exchange of ideas and images of knives that are completed. there is discussion time to time on what a particular collector thinks of fit finish ht etc. and about which maker they feel is the best. But we don't have individuals saying " you need to do it this way because it is the best and because i do it this way". Now i also feel it is a good thing for some of these responses because i have used ideas and methods that have recommended to me concerning handle and guard fitting. some of these absolutely did not work but i learned that from trying and will not use those methods again. I hope my little ramble made sense if not i apologize and will try to utilize my right to remain silent if i can only achieve the abillity.
 
I think what happens is that emotions take over and it clouds people's judgement. The reason for BR's and Carolyn's dislike of forums is probably that in them you will find criticism of the ABS and ABS members. They feel that they must protect this organization that has been so big a part of their lives for such a long time. I'm sure that BR doesn't really believe in restricting free speech, it's just that he is powerless to stop what he feels are unjustifiable, unaccountable attacks on something he loves. I can understand and empathize. I don't agree with their view on knife forums, but I think I know where they are coming from.
 
DWinkler said:
Carolyn’s statement in the "American Bladesmith" is merely her opinion.
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Daniel - given that it was published in the ABS "official" mag', by its editor, it cannot be "merely her opinion". I'm much more sanguine about this all thing than the OP, but "merely her opinion", it is not.

By the way guys - as a foreigner, coming from a country where free speech is not protected, I feel very strongly that one shouldn't use this term randomly. Free speech is a politico-legal concept dealing with how the government its coercion powers to limit its citizen's speech. It has nothing to do with what is said in a private context, such as a forum or a magazine.
 
Hi Daniel,

Thanks for posting in this thread.

You said, “They like to do things their way. The rest of the world can either get on board or move around, it wont change the ABS direction.” I think that’s probably an accurate statement and is reflected by Mrs. Hughes apparent opinion that if the commoners have a forum it shouldn’t be taken seriously.

Bill
 
Joss said:
By the way guys - as a foreigner, coming from a country where free speech is not protected, I feel very strongly that one shouldn't use this term randomly. Free speech is a politico-legal concept dealing with how the government its coercion powers to limit its citizen's speech. It has nothing to do with what is said in a private context, such as a forum or a magazine.
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Joss, it is not that simple....there are many, many interpretations of what free speech means, from a political, legal, and societal point of view....

This came from Wikipedia:


"Still another explanation is that freedom of speech is integral to tolerance, which some people feel should be a basic value in society. Professor Lee Bollinger is an advocate of this view and argues that "the free speech principle involves a special act of carving out one area of social interaction for extraordinary self-restraint, the purpose of which is to develop and demonstrate a social capacity to control feelings evoked by a host of social encounters." The free speech principle is left with the concern of nothing less than helping to shape "the intellectual character of the society".

This claim is to say that tolerance is a desirable, if not essential, value, and that protecting unpopular speech is itself an act of tolerance. Such tolerance serves as a model that encourages more tolerance throughout society."

The bolded portion represents the position that the ACLU takes on free speech. That it is not about protecting the speech that you agree with that is necessary, but protecting the speech that you hate that is necessary.

I don't know if I agree with that...but I do know that certain members of society hate and fear public forums.

Anyway, I appreciate everyone's viewpoint on this topic.:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
North,

Folks with ties to magazines had better take forum posters seriously as a group. The Internet is the fastest growing segment of the knife community and I would think it would be important for magazine editors to keep informed what is being said on the forums. Sure some of the posts are BS but there is a lot of important information being printed too. Huh, I guess the same thing can be said for the magazines.

Joss,

You are exactly right. Carolyn and Bruce are representatives of their magazines and should be careful to not mislead their readers. If they are writing an opinion it should be stated as such.

Ed,

I'm sorry; I must not have stated my question correctly. I am sure you have a lot of good ideas how to improve the ABS. Unfortunately I doubt you will have much success without getting yourself in a leadership position with the ABS board. I was asking about what changes have been made that are contrary to "what it stood for" stated in your closing line.

Daniel
 
Kohai999 said:
Joss, it is not that simple....there are many, many interpretations of what free speech means, from a political, legal, and societal point of view....
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All the more important to agree on what we mean, and not use a term that has an historically-established meaning to say something else.

This claim is to say that tolerance is a desirable, if not essential, value, and that protecting unpopular speech is itself an act of tolerance. Such tolerance serves as a model that encourages more tolerance throughout society."

The bolded portion represents the position that the ACLU takes on free speech.
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This kind of "tolerance" quickly leads to moral relativism. I strongly reject the ACLU's stance on the subject, not to mention that of most large US universities. Tolerance as defined above leads to absolute non-dialogue - whatever one thinks becomes as worthy of respect as whatever someone else thinks, regardless of facts. This is the end of progress.

I'm all for spirited discussions and a healthy dose of intolerance. It is your intolerance for the ABS' view which has helped start this thread, and that's a great thing.
 
Dan: The thoughts I described were dreams that I felt were shared by the organization at the time I joined . Slowly the direction changed from one of promoting the development of the forged blade to protecting what was already achieved.

I remember board members who would call wanting to know what was new and encourage the creativity of all members.

The forums provide an opportunity for many to participate, some who could never afford or be physically able to travel to hammerins and shows. Some of these folks are members of the ABS, this thead is only one example of how their participation is rejected.
 
Well, notwithstanding what Mrs. Hughes thinks - and whatever the ABS might think - I am grateful for the participation of both ABS and non-ABS makers on these forums. I have learned a lot from you all.

Roger
Clueless wannabe authority.
 
Joss, you are correct in that the people that run privately owned forums can establish the rules about what can be posted there, but if someone wants to have forums shut down because of the views that are being expressed there, that person is indeed promoting the restriction of free speech. Of course there are times when shutting down the forum would not be against the rules protecting free speech, such as when the views expressed promote hate against a race, religion, or segment of society.

BR Hughes has some very strong views on what should happen to knife forums. Some of the things he complains about are valid, but his belief that knife forums should be banned (something he said at the ABS banquette), is short sighted, closed minded and something that if it were to come to pass would have a detrimental effect on the livelihoods of many ABS bladesmiths.

There are times when people don't take into account the ramifications of what it is that they are promoting. Their statements come from the heart, not the head. As far as forums are concerned, with the good comes the bad. The good that forums do for knifemakers far outweighs the bad, and this is something that Mr. Hughes should comtemplate before making such rash statements as the one I referred to above.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
BR Hughes has some very strong views on what should happen to knife forums. Some of the things he complains about are valid, but his belief that knife forums should be banned (something he said at the ABS banquette), is short sighted, closed minded and something that if it were to come to pass would have a detrimental effect on the livelihoods of many ABS bladesmiths.
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He said WHAT??!

Roger
 
RogerP said:
He said WHAT??!

Roger
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I am the proud owner of exactly one custom knife and not at all an expert on anything so perhaps I am one of the uninformed masses that should not have a voice, according to Mr. and Mrs. Hughes.

That being said, the above quote is exactly what I also thought upon reading Mr Hughes' comments. For one of the founders of what is now the biggest knife related organization to make such a comment publicly, I can only believe that stymying dissent is more important to him than educating the public or providing a service. Perhaps he truly feels that online forums do a disservice to the custom knife community but I have a terribly hard time trying to come up with an argument that supports that point of view. Even with all the crap that can be found on the forums, I think it self-evident that the good far outways the bad. There is promotion, advertisement, research, collaboration and on and on...what could be bad about that?



I hope that they read this thread and see what many knife enthusiast forum members as well as magazine readers have to think about their opinions.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
Joss, you are correct in that the people that run privately owned forums can establish the rules about what can be posted there, but if someone wants to have forums shut down because of the views that are being expressed there, that person is indeed promoting the restriction of free speech.
...
BR Hughes has some very strong views on what should happen to knife forums. Some of the things he complains about are valid, but his belief that knife forums should be banned (something he said at the ABS banquette), is short sighted, closed minded and something that if it were to come to pass would have a detrimental effect on the livelihoods of many ABS bladesmiths.
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Banned by whom & how? If he's saying something like "People who post on forums should be banned from the ABS", that's not a violation of free speech. It's moronic and suicidal, but it still is part of the private sphere.

If he says "the ABS should sue forums into nothingness", or "the government should prohibit the existence of such forums", then it is advocating a violation of free speech.
 
I recently contacted a knife maker to make a custom slip joint for me that echoed the same sentiments as that Steven. In his reply to my email his words were,

"re forums....I'm allergic. Forums
conceptually are a great idea but it allows scum bags
to say anything they want about anyone with no
accountability or credibility check. Good buddy of
mine was accused of being a convicted child molestor
on a knife forum !! Most reputable makers that I know
who are making good stuff let their product speak for
itself and avoid the forums like the plague..."

I don't find this true myself regarding the part about 'most reputable makers' and feel it is fine if he is allergic to the forums but a bit closed minded overall.

Second and probably the most ironic part about his feelings about forums is that I heard of this guy on one of those very forums he is allergic to and would not have known of him otherwise.

Contrary to popular belief there is a lot of very accurate and valuable information on the forums and contrary to what these folks saying these negative things are taking as fact based on hearsay, there are a lot of folks geniuinely helped by these forums and a lot folks that geniuinely go out of their way to help and support knife makers because of them.

And this same maker told me, check that, promised me he'd get back to me in five to seven days after 'chewing on my request for a few'. This was on Sept. 5th of 07. Hows that for accountability?

You might not care for a particular knifemaker, but that does not give you a right to ruin a person's livelihood by libeling his or her work.
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The above quote is the most puzzling one to me. So its ok to take the right to go ahead and get a cheap shot in at forum owners I guess?

I could say, 'you might not care for forums but that does not give you the right to ruin them by false statements as an example'.

STR
 
Steve,

The old saying, "Ignorance is Bliss" comes to mind. The ABS is not the only organization that falls into this category.

Some of the once fine Knife Promoting organizations need to step into the 21st century because they are in serious danger of becoming irrelevant.
 
Joss said:
Banned by whom & how? If he's saying something like "People who post on forums should be banned from the ABS", that's not a violation of free speech. It's moronic and suicidal, but it still is part of the private sphere.

If he says "the ABS should sue forums into nothingness", or "the government should prohibit the existence of such forums", then it is advocating a violation of free speech.
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What I am pretty sure he meant was that knife forums should be done away with.
 
I have been guilty of nefarious babbling, inappropriate humor and a multitude of other sins on the forums. BUT, I have also discovered tons of valuable information that has made my attempts to forge blades just a little bit easier and have had the opportunity to chat with a lot of people, mostly nice, some occasionally trollish like moi and some......well, you know what I mean...lol. This is NOT professional journalism and does not proport to be such. Many folks rightly say that the forums are still a small part of the custom knife business, BUT they are growing. They aren't going anywhere and as time wears on, they are, IMHO, becoming not only more "professional" but infinitely more inportant. As for the ABS, all organizations can have issues regarding change, etc. As for me, whatever "bad" issues the ABS may have do not impact a lowly newbie like myself, BUT the benefit that I have derived from its "educational mission" cannot really be measured. Regardless of whether or not a learning opportunity is "official" or "sanctioned" by the ABS or any other group or whether it is just a couple of guys talking on here orat a show, the fact remains that the groups mission was to preserve the forged blade and they have done that admirably. I have talked with many folks about the idea that there are very few "trade secrets" in the smithing game and if that is the lasting legacy of the ABS, then I think they have done very well. As for the comments on here, opinions differ and remember.......at one time, ALL of us were "non-authorities" and some. like myself still fall into that category and shall do so for a long time to come. So i just watch, read, listen, and try to learn a little here and there. I approached the forums from the perpective of not only a budding knf maker, but a longtime user, part time collector and fan of the art. But lately, I have been coming from the side of a maker more and more. I have come to the conclusion that there are two VERY imprtant things that knifemakers should do. They should maintain a goodly or even high degree of humility, particularly when they are talking to themslves and demonstrate a willingness to continue learning no matter how far along they think that they are.
 
jdm61 said:
BUT the benefit that I have derived from its "educational mission" cannot really be measured.
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Amen, Joe. I feel the same way.

Along with my many good friends here, I am happy to count Carolyn Hughes as a good friend too. I know her to be a stunningly competent woman who balances many difficult and demanding tasks. She is also a warm and kind person. Nothing anybody here can say will change the truth of that.

Individual beefs notwithstanding, the ABS is in transition as regards the Moran era. We are talking about men and women who for many years have consistently devoted their energy and free time to building, maintaining and sustaining an organization that, in the final analysis, has broadly benefitted all of us. I would feel more comfortable right now if we were a little less anarchic (see my article "Re-thinking the Internet" in the ABS Journal referenced by STeven above) and a bit more respectful and understanding of the grieving process that would be affecting us if we were in their shoes. It will be BR's fate to be the last of the ABS founding members in our tme. I will not even begin to mention all the ways BR has benefitted us through his own dedication and love of that which is what brings us all together here on this forum. Carolyn and BR deserve better from us, especially now as the end of their time draws nearer.

I do think there is a good discussion going on in this thread and that's what my Thin Threads and Forged Steel column in the ABS Journal is all about. I reported on the relationship between the Internet, the World Wide Web and social change as discussed by Sir Tim Berners-Lee, inventor and creator of the Web as we know it, in his testimony before the US House of Representatives Committee on Energy and Commerce (3/1/07).

I came away from researching the article aware that even with our smug predictions about how the internet will change everything, we still grossly underestimate the actual degree of social re-organization that will result from having a free, open structure and integrated internet/world wide web that anybody can use anywhere to add whatever content they choose at any time. It is not good or bad, it is what will be. And therefore, it becomes necessary in the end for organizations like the ABS, and there are millions of small organizations around the world in the same boat, to adapt (or die). I'm confident that the ABS wil adapt and flogging them every chance we get on the forums isn't going to help anything.

I don't mean to try and cut off discussion here. I'm not in favor of regulating the exchange of ideas and opinions. I appreciate the opportunity to share my own here.
 
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