Notes from the Editor....

jdm61 said:
BUT the benefit that I have derived from its "educational mission" cannot really be measured.
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Amen, Joe. I feel the same way.

Along with my many good friends here, I am happy to count Carolyn Hughes as a good friend too. I know her to be a stunningly competent woman who balances many difficult and demanding tasks. She is also a warm and kind person. Nothing anybody here can say will change the truth of that.

Individual beefs notwithstanding, the ABS is in transition as regards the Moran era. We are talking about men and women who for many years have consistently devoted their energy and free time to building, maintaining and sustaining an organization that, in the final analysis, has broadly benefitted all of us. I would feel more comfortable right now if we were a little less anarchic (see my article in the ABS Journal referenced by STeven above) and a bit more respectful and understanding of the grieving process that would be affecting us if we were in their shoes. It will be BR's fate to be the last of the ABS founding members in our tme. I will not even begin to mention all the ways BR has benefitted us through his own dedication and love of that which is what brings us all together here on this forum. Carolyn and BR deserve better from us, especially now as the end of their time draws nearer.

I do think there is a good discussion going on in this thread and that's what my Thin Threads and Forged Steel column in the ABS Journal is all about. I reported on the relationship between the Internet, the World Wide Web and social change as discussed by Sir Tim Berners-Lee, inventor and creator of the Web as we know it, in his testimony before the US House of Representatives Committee on Energy and Commerce (3/1/07).

I came away from researching the article aware that even with our smug predictions about how the internet will change everything, we still grossly underestimate the actual degree of social re-organization that will result from having a free, open structure and integrated internet/world wide web that anybody can use anywhere to add whatever content they choose at any time. It is not good or bad, it is what will be. And therefore, it becomes necessary in the end for organizations like the ABS, and there are millions of small organizations around the world in the same boat, to adapt (or die). I'm confident that the ABS wil adapt and flogging them every chance we get on the forums isn't going to help anything.

I don't mean to try and cut off discussion here. I'm not in favor of regulating the exchange of ideas and opinions. I appreciate the opportunity to share my own here.
 
Buddy,

1. I don't know Carolyn, so I have to defer to others(you, Keith…), and admit that she is most likely a fine person. That does not change the fact that she wrote a fairly venomous op-ed piece that opened this issue of the American Bladesmith. Your column was a neatly balanced counterpoint, and I don't think that was unintentional.

2. There are a great many bladesmiths out there that would be doing fantastically well, with or without the ABS…..It is a fine organization, one that I support fully….but it is not the be-all/end all.

3. WE have ALL suffered loss, to varying degrees. As a medical doctor, I would think that compassion would frequently be at the forefront of your psyche. It is a critical component of who and what you are.

I would be on the other side of that coin. No quarter given or accepted. Kindness is still not a viable portion of my make up…but I am trying.

There is a place for both approaches in the world, and a time for each to act. The last post I made on the subject was before Blade, and I honestly think that the current op-ed piece was a response to that post. This is not "flogging the ABS", this is a response to an op-ed piece by the Editor of the American Bladesmith, that I feel is seriously misguided.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Hi Buddy,

I appreciate your well written post and your defense of your friend, but I wish that you would share your opinion of the op-ed piece by Mrs. Hughes that was quoted by STeven in the first post in this thread.

I agree with STeven that “This is not "flogging the ABS", this is a response to an op-ed piece by the Editor of the American Bladesmith”.

Bill
 
Maybe the ABS can come up with a format of their very own in a forum of their very own, run by them, owned by them and more, run the way they want it. For example, set up so just its ABS members that can post the 'approved of' information and for other non paying or non ABS members to have the option to read only unless they have the credentials to allow them to upgrade membership to then also post information.

But I have serious doubts that even if the entire forum was ABS members, guild members, or other inside known and knowledgeable or approved of members that only posted the information there that its just a guarantee there would still be people cryin' foul about something said or accountability and all the other things said in that first post by the Ms. Hughs regarding forums. I mean lets face it even a 2000 year old priesthood can't agree on many issues they preach on to their congregations anymore than some of you ABS members can agree on best steels, hardness, tempering and so on and we all know you guys have big and little differences of opinion on all these things. :D

It sounds like to me, just looking from outside the box, that those that avoid the forums do it because they don't like or want to be taken to task about something they say or even so much as questioned when that should be expected.


STR
 
just looking from outside the box, that those that avoid the forums do it because they don't like or want to be taken to task
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What Steve said +1, sounds to me like sour grapes and they are used to being in control and don't like it when they are not.
 
Best thread I've read, maybe ever..

Yesterday, I read this entire thing from a cell phone. What a revelation!
Life is TOO GOOD!
David
 
Buddy,

Carolyn may be the nicest person in the world - but that doesn't maker her right whe she uses her editorial powers to tar forum participants as a bunch of clueless wannabe authorities. Nor does it make her article an example of the responsibility she so devoutly advocates when she admits that she doesn't ever read any forum. If that is true, what is the basis of her exceedingly negative view? Something Bruce told her?

And whatever B.R.'s laudable contributions have been in the past, to publicly advocate that knife forums be banned fairly screams "I couldn't possibly be more out of touch!"

This thread isn't about ABS flogging. It is about the public statements of two high profile individuals within the ABS and the validity of their comments.

Roger
 
One thing I KNOW for sure... If you are serious about BUYING and SELLING great knives and you aren't online or read the forums you are a blasted fool.

BR Hughes is a real nice man. I wonder how many knives he buys per year?
 
I don't feel that I can adress the problem of the ABS, but as far as deligitmizing the forums goes....

The problem with being a "mover and shaker" i.e. "leader" in most fields is that there is ususally nothing requiring your colleagues to listen to you. It doesn't matter if the field is science or knife collecting. You can be a Nobel prize winner or living national treasure*, but your colleagues are not necessarily going to do what you want them to do, especially if they are a bunch of stubborn, independent-minded folks. They are gonna do pretty much what they want to do anyway. That description pretty much fits most of the scientists that I know, many of the knife collectors that I know, and all of the knifemakers that I know.

However, the publishing world is not necessarily like that. There sure are a lot of similar magazines out there. Much of the publishing world does run on consensus (not sure if that applies to the tiny world of knife-related publishing).

In any case, it is difficult for a would-be mover-and-shaker to realize that he does not move-or-shake very much. Especially when they realize that their messages are being communicated using a system that is slower and more expensive than that used by others.

I let my subscriptions to knife magazine expire because I did not feel that they provided enough information (or entertainment) for my money. On the other hand, I do support these forums, because I do feel that there is a lot of valuable information here (in addition to the entertainment). Yes, there is a lot of BS here (which can also be found in many knife magazines). The difference is that the BS-mongers here are usually called for it.

*no disrespect intended to Nobel prize winners or living national treasures. I only wanted to pick leading examples of folks in both fields.
 
As an organization if one is openly for or against something, it becomes more than about the individual. One of the people in question here, I have heard telling racist and sexist jokes from across his knives at shows. That always bugs me.. if i myself have racist tendencies, I am not proud and ashamed of them. So, whether the organization is being represented or not by this person, I have little respect for him. NO matter what giant he is in his own little world.

This thread has done much and I am proud of what it says for free speech and the sharing of ideas. There is no perfect world, but reading these forums has been the sugar on my morning cereal.

I would like to hear Jerry Fisk's response to this thread. He is vice president of the ABS and will be the one who does much to steer direction. He also seems to have a good head on his shoulders, not stiff-minded and open to the forums as a worthwhile effort.

I appreciate the education I am getting here.
David
 
Hi David,
I hate to be the one to put a little salt on your cereal, but you don't have a clue of what your talking about. The person (or through third party hear say) persons in question are not racist or sexist nor do they have a table with knives on it at shows. During the 30 years I have known and worked with these individuals I have never heard anything similar to what your saying. It's post like yours that I sure Mrs Hugh's is referring to in her article.
Don
 
2knife said:
As an organization if one is openly for or against something, it becomes more than about the individual. One of the people in question here, I have heard telling racist and sexist jokes from across his knives at shows. That always bugs me.. if i myself have racist tendencies, I am not proud and ashamed of them. So, whether the organization is being represented or not by this person, I have little respect for him. NO matter what giant he is in his own little world.

This thread has done much and I am proud of what it says for free speech and the sharing of ideas. There is no perfect world, but reading these forums has been the sugar on my morning cereal.

I would like to hear Jerry Fisk's response to this thread. He is vice president of the ABS and will be the one who does much to steer direction. He also seems to have a good head on his shoulders, not stiff-minded and open to the forums as a worthwhile effort.

I appreciate the education I am getting here.
David
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David, I have to agree with Don McIntosh.

I think you have your people mixed up here, mis-information helps no one. This is the way rumors get started.

If you hear something from the horses mouth, state what you heard and the name of the person who said it.
 
2knife,

We really could have done without the first paragraph of your recent post.

--------------------------------

I think that we have just witnessed the self correcting ability of forums.

P
 
2knife said:
As an organization if one is openly for or against something, it becomes more than about the individual. One of the people in question here, I have heard telling racist and sexist jokes from across his knives at shows. That always bugs me.. if i myself have racist tendencies, I am not proud and ashamed of them. So, whether the organization is being represented or not by this person, I have little respect for him. NO matter what giant he is in his own little world.

This thread has done much and I am proud of what it says for free speech and the sharing of ideas. There is no perfect world, but reading these forums has been the sugar on my morning cereal.

I would like to hear Jerry Fisk's response to this thread. He is vice president of the ABS and will be the one who does much to steer direction. He also seems to have a good head on his shoulders, not stiff-minded and open to the forums as a worthwhile effort.

I appreciate the education I am getting here.
David
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If I were you I'd start looking into getting a good lawyer right about now!
 
This whole discussion is about one thing. Freedom. Now freedom is a scary thing. Freedom to carry a gun means that your crazy neighbor may get to. Freedom to pursue a new enterprise means you could lose everything. Freedom to speak your mind means you could offend someone. But it is that freedom that makes this country great.

The statement that "It is extremely difficult to accept what is written by 'wannabe authorities', who don't have a clue regarding the topic..." reminds me of the British reaction to our "grand experiment" in freedom over on this side of the pond. A man with no formal schooling but with a drive and the freedom to pursue his dreams could succeed. Our imperial cousins hated the notion of such a person being granted equality with the nobles, but it is that freedom that made and makes this country great. No one can tell you that you are a "wannabe." You get to prove that for yourself.

When I was just getting into knifemaking, I had a maker tell me to stop coming around because, "He was tired of wannabe knifemakers coming around and asking questions." Now 17 years later, I don't know it all, but I had the freedom to prove that I am more than a wannabe.

In the same way, the internet forums are free. They are free of restrictions (except way out on the edges) and this allows everyone to participate freely. Sure, there's junk. But how is that any different from any print publication? I see stuff written in magazines, newspapers and books all the time that I know for a fact to be false, or at least highly misleading. That's what discernment is for. No one is obligated to believe what they read here. To the statement, "...sort through the garbage to reach the substance..." I respond by saying "welcome to the real world." As a college professor, I'm sure Carolyn would encourage her students to not believe everything they heard, everything they read, or even things they saw, unless they could be verified to be true.
 
Burt Foster said:
I see stuff written in magazines, newspapers and books all the time that I know for a fact to be false, or at least highly misleading. That's what discernment is for. No one is obligated to believe what they read here. To the statement, "...sort through the garbage to reach the substance..." I respond by saying "welcome to the real world." As a college professor, I'm sure Carolyn would encourage her students to not believe everything they heard, everything they read, or even things they saw, unless they could be verified to be true.
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Burt,

Merely a sensational post :thumbup:

(Specifically leaving Carolyn out of my subsequent comment)

I must respectfully disagree with your analysis of what transpires in college. In order to think critically, one must actually think, which is a form of work. Intellectual lazyness is even more prevalent than physical lazyness. Unfortunately most students spend their college careers regurgitating what they believe the professor wants to hear, in order to obtain a good grade. It is simply sickening. While I would love to go along with your wishful thinking, I am afraid you are describing the exception, rather than the norm.

P
 
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