Notes from the Editor....

Thanks guys,glad to know you dont all think I am a babbling fool.I had read back over what I had posted and felt it was just off my head babbling and not much to do about the subject...
I will reapeat that I made the forums my home as shows are not easy to get to or set up at and to get in a magazine is not a easy task and when you do they may use stuff you did years earlier and not be up to date on a makers work...we need the forums to pass on knowledge and educate the new makers,plus it gives all who want to join in a place to show their work and tell of ideas and tricks they have learned ( a newbie that doesnt know something cant be done that way,will usually make it work,and then we can all see a new technique.) all in minutes or days not having to wait a month or months for new issues,or the powers to be to decide if they want to print that....
I vote that the forums are good and should stay ! and I do belong to the ABS...

Bruce
 
STeven GarssonI
probably believe this more strongly than he does because I refuse to read anything written on any forum. It is extremely difficult for me to accept what is written by "wannabe authorities", who don't have a clue regarding the topic on which they are pontificating, and sort through the garbage to reach the substance, if any is there. Writers to knife forums are not the only ones who are guilty of maligning a peer or an organization: this is an affliction of every forum.

"steve she sounds pretty right on to me w the exception of refusing to read anything on any forum
which I will admit is pretty close minded
U come across like one of these wannabe authorities and its because of good buddies like U that "just like to stir up controversy" that she made the statement


Bruce Voyles, a veteran journalist, also touches on the subject of forums in his "On the Edge" column printed in the August 2007 Knives Illustrated. Bruce writes "If there is on reason Web media still has a long way to go, it is the stark knowledge that anyone with a computer has a soapbox with equal credibility of those who have spent years obtaining an in-depth knowledge of the game; and when comments from both are posted on forums, there is no way to tell the difference. Simply because someone spends hours a day on a forum posting whatever may pop into their head does not mean they have an opinion"

" steve I can find nothing wrong w bruces statement"
Oh, heck, Keith, you can bet your bottom dollar that they do....and I had some palaver with him on my last ABS salvo before Blade...he didn't like the post, one damned bit

"and I think your response to him was "I just like to stir up controversy sometimes"
well congratulations you've accomplished that task again"

joss:One thing the ABS could do is have a moderated forum where ABS members would have a reserved area, maybe with sub sections reserved to JS+MS. They could also help makers develop their online presence in other ways (e.g., one page per maker on the ABS site, with pictures of their work).[/QUOTE]
"that's a great idea,do U volunteer????"


ed fowler:When any individual, group or organization shuts itself off from criticism (both positive and negative) it will become stagnent. You are very correct when you say that criticism is not welcome in the ABS, the threads that criticise the ABS are very probably the motivation behind the editorial.

I have criticised the dictates of the ABS on many occasions, not to harm the ABS but an attempt to keep the organization in touch with the forged blade as I see it. When I wrote my first article titled Forge it Thick, I was nearly expelled from the ABS, BR led the attack. When I wrote in favor of brass another attack followed, when I corrected a statememt from BR about Scagel using a flat grind, again I created a serious wave.

None of these articles were meant as attacks on the ABS, only my interest in keeping those who read my articles informed.

"bull, they were meant to elevate ed fowler as an authority
they were veiled attempts at defending why U do stock removal knives w brass guards"


I have long suggested juried articles, the dangers of such a practice probably out weigh the benefit. Still we all need to put our best foot forward when we write.

I love the ABS for what it stood for
"how has the organization changed?? it goal is the preservation of the forged blade"

and what it could be.
That is one huge question Dan! What could The ABS be?

These are some of my thoughts:
Bill had an extesive lybrary, much of it about knives. Bill and I talked, he hoped that one day these books would be available to members who wanted to study the forged blade.

When Bill taught me about the forged blade, it was an introduction with many questions and venues of the forged blade that awaited exploration. At that time Bill saw the future of the forged blade with a lot of learning awaiting. Suddenly anything new (or old rediscovered) became a threat.
The Quillion "art" dagger - to be made this way, the description is very specific.

"they instituted that rule to show a certain level of proficiency why do U have a problem with that:)"

It seems that the ABS leadership has chosen to define what is art and what is not. Look at the knives photographed in the journal - need I say more?
Why not - "Make your dream art knife and be ready to defend it? "
There is still a lot to learn about the development of the forged blade. Where is the ABS research team?
The ABS school should be sending students to our industry filled with questions rather than closed minds.
Fit and finish have come a long way, but how about performance?
How about research?
These are a few of my thoughts, thanks for that question.

ed be ashamed of your self!!!
knife wise and word wise
I had the pleasure of helping conduct 2 of the last Damascus classes that Bill Moran thought
one day during that week he asked me why I had not applied for my master smith stamp
my response was that I knew how good I was and I didn't need a stamp to tell me and why should I
look at ed fowlers knives.
he laughed spit and said" we gave him his stamp because we thought he'd get better and he never has!!!
I hope I can put together 5 master level knives for this next yrs blade show
not for my sake or the abs but to legitimize the youth program that they have charged me with
if I pass good
if not I,All try the next yr and the next and the next
ed U have used the blade magazine to do nothing but try to justify the way U cobble up that ugly bunch of junk U make and tell folks how good they R
now tell everyone, just what direction does the grain in a ball bearing run??
performance blades!!!!! defend yourself in the real world ed not on paper
come to a cutting competition big boy and well see ,show the world
be ashamed!!!"

keith:
I'm sure that BR doesn't really believe in restricting free speech, it's just that he is powerless to stop what he feels are unjustifiable, unaccountable attacks on something he loves. I can understand and empathize. I don't agree with their view on knife forums, but I think I know where they are coming from.

"i can tell u right now he believes in free speech
he defended that right in the second world war
and is one of the few folks i know to have really used a knife in combat
br is as much responsible as bill Moran for the existence of the abs."


joss:
Daniel - given that it was published in the ABS "official" mag', by its editor, it cannot be "merely her opinion". I'm much more sanguine about this all thing than the OP, but "merely her opinion", it is not
" U R right its not just her opinion but the opinion of many fine knife abs makers
ask yourself why U don't see Tim Hancock, Larry Fugen ,Steve Schwarzer ,Al Pendrae Don Fogg ,et. al. on here
. I was asking about what changes have been made that are contrary to "what it stood for" stated in your closing line.

ed fowler:
The thoughts I described were dreams that I felt were shared by the organization at the time I joined

"what R "these dreams" ed??? how did they change "?
don't lay out a bunch of down home verbiage
be specific
what has changed??????"

. Slowly the direction changed from one of promoting the development of the forged blade to protecting what was already achieved.

"and what has already been achieved"


steve:
1. I don't know Carolyn, so I have to defer to others(you, Keith…), and admit that she is most likely a fine person. That does not change the fact that she wrote a fairly venomous op-ed piece that opened this issue of the American Bladesmith. Your column was a neatly balanced counterpoint, and I don't think that was unintentional.

steve I can speak directly for her BUT she's probe had enough of folks that"just like to stir up controversy"


2. There are a great many bladesmiths out there that would be doing fantastically well, with or without the ABS…..It is a fine organization, one that I support fully….but it is not the be-all/end all.

,

STeven Garsson

roger

And whatever B.R.'s laudable contributions have been in the past,

"his laudable contributions have been to start the abs with out him it would not exist"


to publicly advocate that knife forums be banned fairly screams "I couldn't possibly be more out of touch!"
david
Just an observation, BR Hughes I've only had one conversation with, who was cordial. He is a knife writer. And, Mrs. Hughes, I do not know her. What are their roles in the ABS? .. seems to strike me as odd that it isn't someone who is actively a knifemaker, running the organization, or in leadership positions. Unless I'm unaware. Leadership roles, are they given on the basis of support to the organization, as some awards are presented for people who give major financial support?

I admit I have no idea how the organization is run, who decides who is elected, the process of any of it. Long-standing members and alliances dictate control of the organization? (true, or false?)

My former comments about an isolated incident were perhaps unwelcome and provoked criticism, these were not meant as an attack on the person that made the statements, just an illustration I meant to use. People who represent, carry the responsibility on their shoulder of what image they present. I didn't make false statements, or heresay, but I will not drag someone's name through the mud here. Even if they deserve it.


"your ignorance is showing go back and read the history of the abs before u set your fingers to typing "
Br,S role in the abs along with bill Moran is founder





woodier
Guys,

You are getting your shorts in a wad for no reason.

The Two Main US Based Knife Organizations care absolutely nothing about you or your opinions.

"nothing could be further from the truth"


Consequently, take the organizations out of the equation.

"the makers are the organization"

Support the makers who support the collectors.

"thinly Vail attempt at saying support the makers that support U:)"gotcha!!!!!

The ABS Web Site has nothing on it about the Blade Show, The Banquet, who received their MS and JS Ratings, nor anything about the award winners. You would think they would at least list the Moran Award Winner.

The good news is that ABS Long Sleve Shirts are now on sale for $20!

well since don fogg is responsible fore the abs web sight and his wife just passed not too long ago and he had to sell his house to pay med bills and then move to California then back to main id say he's kind short on time. wouldn't U??
all things in the abs R done on a vol. basis
do U want to vol. to keep up that web sight

WWG
Diving the "Wall" tomorrow!
WoodWorkGhost WoodWorkGhost is online now
Registered User



Love the knives and the makers....just cannot figure out the ABS organization.

its because the abs is not a mercenary organization
and to U that is not logical

WWG

if theres anyone I didn't insult or feels like I need to recognize please raise your hand I,All get U next time
harley
www.lonesomepineknives.com.
p.s.buy my knives every chance u get:)
 
Larry,

You make very cool knives, and you are a "bigger than life" character, something the world need sorely. I wish you luck on your MS, and I'm really looking forward to seeing (pics of) your knives. I'll leave it at that for now.

JD
 
Larry: most of your comments are not worth a response. But you bring new meaning to the word despicable when you comment on an alleged comment by Bill Moran. Bill and I were friends for over 20 years, I never heard him make a negative comment about any makers knives, that was not his way. To drag a good man to your side when he can no longer comment is about as low as it gets.
 
Larry,

You may be right and Don Fogg is responsible for the web site. You are further correct that Don had more pressing matters to attend to.

Consequently, the ABS should have had someone else to update the web site. Using Don Fogg and his situation as an excuse is shameless.

My point was that no matter who is the web master (actually I understood that it was someone's daughter who was a professional), the web site has to be updated.

With all the money the ABS gets from the auction at the Blade Show and from the annual sales of the ABS Gear (Still waiting for an explanation how the ABS can benefit from "Direct Sales" yet their membership cannot put the ABS Logo on their business cards as the organization feels that it may some how be thought of as receiving money from "Indirect Sales". The money from Dues, Auctions, and Direct Sales could easily pay for a part time web master.

I brought up the shirt as it would appear felt that letting people know that items were for "Direct Sale" was much more important than updating the web site about its membership.

As I stated earlier I have given up on the organization not the knife makers.

Now I'll let you and Ed get back into it about who said what about who, where and when.

WWG
 
One thing that the makers who comment and read these threads need to understand is that collectors may not be experts on making knives but often we are experts at buying, collecting and are equally as interested and invested in furthering the craft of handmade knives. I know collectors who know more about design and style than many, many very talented makers who have learned excellent technical ability.

As the collector (Buyer)/Maker (Seller) relationship is symbiotic at its best, it is in the makers best interest to have an open dialogue about their knives if they are really interested in selling them. Open dialogue with the right collector can help bring a maker from the level of technically gifted Mechanic to Artist. Forums like this are an area where that can occur.

Large companies who are in the business of selling things to please their bosses (shareholders) routinely hold focus groups to determine what the market needs are and what changes they should make to their product. In well over a decade of buying many, many handmade knives and writing dozens of magazine articles I have only once had a maker ask me for advice on what he could do better to improve his product.
 
WoodWorkGhost said:
My point was that no matter who is the web master (actually I understood that it was someone's daughter who was a professional), the web site has to be updated.


WWG
Click to expand...

Les,

I'm going to start by saying my problem is not with you but with your half informed comments. I don't even really know you and I'm sure you are a professional when dealing with customers. However when it comes to the ABS you are off base and unfair. I know your opinion can not be changed and I don't expect to. But you are misleading people and that's where I have a problem.

"Someones daughter" was used to help with some of the technical aspects of putting the ABS Show Expo site together, not the ABS home site. I will not state who because none of the issues that you may have with either site are her problem. She took time out of her life to help launch the show page.

And Don can handle the ABS site just fine. The problem is that someone has to get him information to post. Don can't just invent information for the site and he shouldn't have to chase it down. He needs to receive the information. Maybe this shouldn't come from just one person. Maybe two or three people can gather info and keep Don busy posting.

Sure the ABS could hire a webmaster and relieve Don and some time will come when Don requests it. Only then you'll be paying someone to sit there and wait for info.

Les this is all done on volunteer time so it's just going to take some time. You say you have given up on the organization but not the knife makers. The organization is knife makers and they're doing the best they can.

I know you will take every chance you can to trash the ABS and that's too bad. You're welcome to your opinion but at times I feel compelled to defend the organization and good people that are doing their best. And if you've given up on the organization you sure seem to worry about what they do.

As far as the rest of this thread I'll leave that to the rest of you. Personally I think the trashing that's going on in this thread is just what everyone is talking about. I enjoy the informative positive threads much more.
 
Josh,
I think part of the point is that the ABS has a duty to their members to offer the best venue for representation, whether that be show venue or Internet site. An organization like the ABS should take its Worldwide internet presence very seriously and not farm it out to low bidder or volunteers if that means a sacrifice in quality that reflects on the image of the organization.
 
Bladeandbarrel said:
Josh,
I think part of the point is that the ABS has a duty to their members to offer the best venue for representation, whether that be show venue or Internet site. An organization like the ABS should take its Worldwide Internet presence very seriously and not farm it out to low bidder or volunteers if that means a sacrifice in quality that reflects on the image of the organization.
Click to expand...

The ABS exists to "promote and advance the art and science of the forged blade and other implements. And also to inform and educate the public in respect to bladesmithing, metal forging and heat treating processes, knife and tool design and fabrication, related arts and other areas in which the Society has expertise."

Until that motto is different and it becomes something like, "to promote blade smith's, their knives, and to better provide an opportunity and venue to advance their careers" it's not their duty.

As a member, the ABS has provided me an opportunity to learn, pass their tests, and use that to my advantage. They've been a spring board. Frankly if the ABS did not exist from here on, I would sink or swim because of my own practices not because the ABS was gone. However, a new maker can still use the ABS as the learning tool it was designed for, pass their tests, and springboard his own career, if he makes the right decisions. I think that's a functional non-profit. Helping it's new members learn and advance their craft. Can we improve? DEFINATLEY!

However I understand your view and would like to see more done in the way of the site and I know first hand that it is being addressed. Is the ABS late to the party, perhaps. But it is being addressed.

Again it's not about the lowest bidder or who can we get to volunteer for building and maintaining the site but instead the issue is gathering the necessary information for that person.

The bottom line is that the ABS needs one or two people in charge of gathering Don the information he needs to create a fresh site.

Thanks BladeandBarrel for your views. I hope for everyone that your web site concerns are addressed. We just differ in our views of the role of the ABS.

Sorry my posts are so long. Have you fallen asleep yet?
 
I just wish that I could understand what Larry Harley's point is?

Could someone, somewhere, explain it to me.

Larry, if you think I stir up crap for my own amusement, you could not misunderstand to any greater degree of seriousness.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
joshsmith said:
The ABS exists to "promote and advance the art and science of the forged blade and other implements. And also to inform and educate the public in respect to bladesmithing, metal forging and heat treating processes, knife and tool design and fabrication, related arts and other areas in which the Society has expertise."
Click to expand...

I get that. But I would submit that their web site is not best utilized as a tool for the advancement of those stated goals. And the open and ugly hostility displayed by some VERY prominent individuals within that arganization toward internet forums and their membership certainly doesn't bode well for the utilization of that venue, either.

Roger
 
joshsmith said:
The ABS exists to "promote and advance the art and science of the forged blade and other implements. And also to inform and educate the public in respect to bladesmithing, metal forging and heat treating processes, knife and tool design and fabrication, related arts and other areas in which the Society has expertise."
Click to expand...

I support the ABS, however would like to see the organization put more emphasis on the collector in regard to inclusion, education and in helping more to bring in and sustain new collectors. I think the new Reno Show format is a step in that direction with the first day of seminars and the new knife sales system which should benefit the new or less established collector in being able to purchase knives.

Let's face it, where are the ABS and custom knifemakers in general if there's not enough collectors to purchase their knives?
 
Knife forums represent a large group of collectors and a few makers. Members make up what a forum is....right?

The denouncing of knife forums by the powers in charge of the ABS is not good for the ABS or it's members... It is that simple, really.......
 
Bastid said:
It just takes a little effort to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Click to expand...

Some effort is needed to seperate the two in communication, whether words shared in person, words in ink, or words through these monitors.

Plus, some verbal chaff is needed to overcome the chafe. ;)


- Joe
 
Hi Josh,

Your comments are fair enough.

So who in the ABS gets off their butt and gets the information to Don so it can be posted on the ABS site.

As I mentioned several times, they seemed to have no difficulty in getting the the "ABS Shirt Sale" on the site, but they can't get a review of the Reno Show?

Josh, how can that be. That was not some obscure Hammer-In in the back woods somewhere. That is the ABS Show! Obviously all the leadership knew it happened...so where is any info on the site?

Volunteer or not, the board is not showing a "Can Do" attitude. They are showing a "We Don't Care" attitude.

If it wasn't for this forum, Blade Magazine (covering the Blade Show) BR Hughes and Myself, how much information would be available to the general knife buying public? Very little. Predominately hammer-in information and whatever is in the ABS magazine that comes out a couple times a year.

I understand everything is done on a volunteer. Obviously this has not been very successful with regards to the web site.

I understand the Motto of the ABS. What you and other makers who make knives for a living need as much advertising as you can get.

In another thread you wrote you wanted to have someone basically act as a "benefactor" and give you the money to show just how much you are capable of.

By the ABS putting photos of the work its membership is capable of go a long way to finding new clients who want knives more from the "Art" side of the ABS.

When the ABS was founded they had no way of knowing the Internet would be developed. However, as with any "fluid" organization adaptations must be made. As I have written before the ABS has to come into the 21st Century. This does not mean everyone has to take advantage of what the Internet can offer...but at least offer it to the membership.

So Josh, who do you fee is the person or persons who are responsible for making the necessary changes. The "Board" is not the correct answer...which person.

Once you identify that person, how do you propose to get your proposal of getting Don the information.

Hint, the answer can be found right here in this thread.

Josh, it is now up to you.

WWG
 
In another thread you wrote you wanted to have someone basically act as a "benefactor" and give you the money to show just how much you are capable of.

Les,

I'm not sure what you mean by the quote above. I've never asked for benefactors or someone to give me money.

Many of the critisims you just laid out are fair. I can't argue with most of them. I'd like to see each of those points happen.

The difference is that I'm not the one complaining. I know your asking me to gather this information. With two small kids, one on the way, flooded in a backlog of orders, planning a hammer-in, planning a show, and getting ready for my own shows I don't have time. It has to be someone with the time and desire. Maybe a retired maker or part time. And most of the full time makers are like me. We are busy enough trying to make a living.

Les, if I were the one complaining about the site then I would feel compelled to do it. However you are the one complaining. Help fix it or stop complaining.
 
joshsmith said:
With two small kids, one on the way, flooded in a backlog of orders, planning a hammer-in, planning a show, and getting ready for my own shows I don't have time.
Click to expand...

Probably time to tie your dick in a knot, amigo.:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
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