Notes from the Editor....

Hi Josh,

Benfactor was probably the wrong word...sponsor would probably be more accurate.

While on one hand you are not complaining. On the other hand you would like to see the ABS help expand the market, not just for you but the other knife makers as well.

So which is it? You don't want the ABS to change and you are happy with the "Status Quo". Or you would like to expand your market and introduce your work and that of others to a wider audience?

Congratulation on your kids...do they know daddy is using them as an excuse?

How about this for a scenario:

Captain in the Army..full time job. Going to graduate school to get an MBA...3 classes a week, 4 hours per night...oh and don't forget homework, for two years...year around. Also, running a Custom Knife Business.

So full time job, full time in Graduate School and running a knife business. Oh and two small kids.

Josh, I didn't say you should do this...after all you are busy, you have a job and a family. Any one else reading this have that scenario in their life.

I said the answer was in this thread...I didn't mean you should do it. How many members are in the ABS? Lets not forget Associate Members (another hint).

Josh, I would help the ABS except for one thing. If I was to take the job on they would have to pay me....and I don't come cheap. However, I would have the Web Site problem fixed within 4 months. It would be a world class web site in 1 year or less, depending on how fast he makers got the information to me. Oh and the board wouldn't get to "meddle" in how I removed the problem.

So we both know that is not going to happen.

Josh, you want your business to move forward. So what are you willing to do to make that happen? If you aren't willing to be part of the solution...then you are part of the problem. As a young man you surrender yourself to the "good ol' boys" and become part of the "That's the way we always did it" mind set.

While it may seem that I am picking on you or being harsh with my words, neither is true. I view things from a business perspective. I find "excuses" to be nothing more than being lazy. Those who use them have hit a plateau and are now working hard to lower others standards than to raise their own.

Change for the ABS has to come from within. You and the other members have to demand change and take a course of action that will affect this change.

Remember, choosing to do nothing...is still a choice.

Whether you think you can or you can't...you are correct.

Remember, the answer to the problem is right here in this thread. Your only involvement will be as an initial facilitator. Maybe 1 hour of your time (probably less).

If you can't figure it out...email me off line and I will give you the answer.

WWG
 
This isn't going to go anywhere productive. I don't know who you're getting me confused with. I've always said it's not the ABS's job to expand the market. It's mine and every other makers job to promote and expand his own market by conducting his business in a way that gains himself respect in the industry.

I'm not using my kids as an excuse. They are more important than any of this. You're treading on thin ice with this subject.

My business will move forward because of what I do, not what the ABS does for me. Did you just play the "good ol boy's" card. Good one. If you knew me you'd know I stand for what I feel is right, not what I'm told. But you don't know me so yet again you make yourself look like an ass.

I don't want to get into an useless pissing match. I've already engaged in it too much.
 
Hi Josh,

Just wanted to clarify that you are OK with how the ABS is doing things.

Such As:

No updates

No JS information on the site

Updates as to when Merchandise is on sale.

As for your children, one of the best parts of my job is that my children (one in college and one in High School) have always had their parents around. Because my wife and I run our business's out of the house. We were almost always able to change our schedule to attend all the things our children did. So you will be able to enjoy that. You have put yourself in a fortunate position that most parents are not able to put themselves in. I am not one of those dads who when his daughter graduated from HS, said "She grew up so fast".

I am amazed that the business man in you would not spend an hour to help your organization. I would think a hard charger like you would want to put yourself at the forefront of your profession...and not wait for others to do it for you. Those who wait...are the real ass's

There is a reason I call myself a Custom Knife Entrepreneur as opposed to a "Dealer or Purveyor". I don't merely wait for things to happen or hope others will step up. I see an opportunity and I make it happen.

I poke at the ABS because change for them will only come from within and it can be so much more than it is.

As a businessman you may to reread some of these posts and understand that while it may not make a difference to you...it does make a difference to your potential customers. That is where you seperate yourself from the ABS...they don't have to care...you do.

WWG
 
As a relative newbie here are my 2 cents. First let me state that I have only read what was written in the thread. I don't believe I know any of you personally but I have met 10 or 12 forumites at knive shows over the past year so I could be mistaken. That being said, this is just like my real job! The old guard has a series of juried journals that constitute the "bible" of the profession and they feel that all worthwhile articles and information must only go through these journals. The newer members utilize the web to discuss new procedures and techniques.

Both sides are not right or wrong---both sides simply exist and to eliminate one side because of a snobbish or elitist attitude is simply narrow minded and counter-productive. (Welcome to politics)

In reality we are debating do we want to dismiss the wisdom of experience or lose the rapid advances of youth and technology. Neither is a good choice.

What we must remember is that we all have a deep love for knives, and people tend to get most opinionated and passionate about things they love and care about the most.

As a knifemaker I try to learn from whereever I can. Some of you have written books. I have them. I read your posts. I look at your pictures. I talk to you at shows. and yes, I even read Knives Illustrated and Blade Magazines for information. I'm not willing to give up any of these sources of information...all of it makes me better.

I feel eventually this will "knives" better, it's all part of growing up.

Kevin

PS Mr. Fowler...my name is Kevin Cross and when I meet you at a show I will be happy to shake you hand and explain KDC438 if you like...I'm not trying to hide.
 
Kevin Jones said:
I support the ABS, however would like to see the organization put more emphasis on the collector in regard to inclusion, education and in helping more to bring in and sustain new collectors. I think the new Reno Show format is a step in that direction with the first day of seminars and the new knife sales system which should benefit the new or less established collector in being able to purchase knives.

Let's face it, where are the ABS and custom knifemakers in general if there's not enough collectors to purchase their knives?
Click to expand...


the abs has hammerins all over the country
please come to one!!!!!!!!!!!!!
its the best bang for your buck anywhere
they are most educational
they r not just for the makers
they r put on to educate makers on technique and collectors can be more educated about what they r collecting
please come to a hammerin
harley
 
Now I'll let you and Ed get back into it about who said what about who, where and when.

WWG[/QUOTE]

u r loveing this ant u:)
harley
 
Ed Fowler said:
Larry: most of your comments are not worth a response. But you bring new meaning to the word despicable when you comment on an alleged comment by Bill Moran. Bill and I were friends for over 20 years, I never heard him make a negative comment about any makers knives, that was not his way. To drag a good man to your side when he can no longer comment is about as low as it gets.
Click to expand...

hey homespun
thats about what i expected from u ed
the comment was not alleged
he laughed and spit when he said it
when anyone ask me why i,m not a master smith i point to u and we all laugh
so homespun how about this performance blade
u bringing one to a cutting competition or not?????
i havent participated in one since i finished my chemo
BUT
U tell me when and where and me and a big knife will be there
harley
 
There is a reason I call myself a Custom Knife Entrepreneur as opposed to a "Dealer or Purveyor". I don't merely wait for things to happen or hope others will step up. I see an opportunity and I make it happen.

I poke at the ABS because change for them will only come from within and it can be so much more than it is.



WWG[/QUOTE]
insted of pokeing holes in the collective abs and guild how about getn on bd and helping


did i just write that??
somebody help me
i think my hair is on fire
harley
 
Don Hanson III said:
Knife forums represent a large group of collectors and a few makers. Members make up what a forum is....right?

The denouncing of knife forums by the powers in charge of the ABS is not good for the ABS or it's members... It is that simple, really.......
Click to expand...


u r right!!!
its the pack mentality that started that i railed against
thers blood in the water everone go in to a feeding frenzey
and its especially insulting to hear abs members denigrate the abs
i,ll have 2 boxes on my table at the blade show one for the kids at french camp one for suggestions:)
harley
 
Hi Larry,

I learned a long time ago (and had it reinforced a couple years ago) that knife maker organizations are really only interested in what the knife makers want.

Yes, the Guild has changed its view recently. However, that was more because they found themselves painted into a corner and went into survival mode.

This will eventually happen to the ABS. They have over 600 members (according to the knife annual) pushing 115 Master Smiths. Im not sure what the JS number is..however Im sure it is pushing 200 by now. Look at the size of the last JS class.

When I first got into this the second question after price was...are they a voting member in the Guild. Now being a voting member in that organization has become a "So What" thing. Understand the Guild brought this on themselves.

As the ABS pushes the 200 MS level (within 3-5 years) and the 300 JS level in probably the same amount of time. As the new collectors who enter in 3-5 years will just assume that anyone who forges is a MS or at least a JS...and they might be right.

Now when the ABS hits those levels will they still continue to ignore the marketing aspect that can help their membership. Perhaps that is the plan. As that will move many of the current MS makers out to pasture.

While its wonderful to train and teach all these bladesmiths. The problem lies with finding collectors who will purchase these knives. Again, maybe that is the ABS's plan. To not aid in finding buyers for their makers work. This in turn will put more makers out to pasture as they will not be able to afford to move past part-time hobbyist.

Josh Smith pointed out he feels he is responsible for his own marketing. Which is as it should be for a businessman which all full time makers should be. However, we know that most knife makers apply little if any business concepts or theories to their work.

As for helping the ABS, I would be more than happy to volunteer my time....as soon as they change their current non-profit configuration. As it is now, they are paranoid about having to pay a dime in tax.

Which is why they feel they can't hire someone to actually serve as a web master for their site.

Come one Larry, hell they have the information on all the JS makers, dues paying members and they can't add them to the site. That is BS.

As for helping the membership of the ABS.

No one in the world has written more published articles on ABS makers in the last two years than I have. Currently I have articles on Tommy Gann and Gordon Graham in Knives Illustrated.

I have to think I am in the top 10 as to the amount of knives I buy from ABS knife makers.

As well I would put myself in the top 10 as to the amount of ABS members knives I have sold world wide to collectors. Many who have never owned a forged blade before.

Last, I have given business advice to any ABS maker who has sought me out. Either through one to one conversations or seminars that they have attended.
Part of my seminar for the knife makers is in the current Issue of Blade.

The only possible exception to that would be Mr. Fisk. He wrote a great book for makers some years back. This is a book that should be handed to every student who attends a hammer in or goes to Old Washington. On a seperate subject when is the ABS going to use some of the "Fees" it gets from teaching students there to upgrade the facility. Fortunately, OSHA can't get in there or they would be looking for a new location!

As you can see Larry, I am doing my part to help the makers.

Now it is up to the makers to implement the changes they know are necessary to move forward the antiqued system the ABS is currently using.

Then again, perhaps they are just silently waiting to be put out to pasture???

WWG
 
larry harley said:
the abs has hammerins all over the country
please come to one!!!!!!!!!!!!!
its the best bang for your buck anywhere
they are most educational
they r not just for the makers
they r put on to educate makers on technique and collectors can be more educated about what they r collecting
please come to a hammerin
harley
Click to expand...

I plan to attend at least one ABS hammer-in the coming year.
 
Kevin Jones said:
I plan to attend at least one ABS hammer-in the coming year.
Click to expand...


hey u r in va:)
that means the closest hammerin to u is mine
first of may
don fogg ,steve schwarzer ,and walley hoffsetter
same instructors as last yr
rick furr wont be able to come:(
if u dont come to mine go to jim batsons first of the following mo
in alabama
wish my hammer would make south west bowies id try to sell u one
ive talked and talked to it but it says it just dont like that style
mabey i,ll fall of the persian wagon when i make my master smith knives and make one:)
see u in may:)
harley
 
Hi Larry,

I learned a long time ago (and had it reinforced a couple years ago) that knife maker organizations are really only interested in what the knife makers want.

Yes, the Guild has changed its view recently. However, that was more because they found themselves painted into a corner and went into survival mode.

This will eventually happen to the ABS. They have over 600 members (according to the knife annual) pushing 115 Master Smiths. Im not sure what the JS number is..however Im sure it is pushing 200 by now. Look at the size {of the last JS class.

When I first got into this the second question after price was...are they a voting member in the Guild. Now being a voting member in that organization has become a "So What" thing. Understand the Guild brought this on themselves.

As the ABS pushes the 200 MS level (within 3-5 years) and the 300 JS level in probably the same amount of time. As the new collectors who enter in 3-5 years will just assume that anyone who forges is a MS or at least a JS...and they might be right.

Now when the ABS hits those levels will they still continue to ignore the marketing aspect that can help their membership. Perhaps that is the plan. As that will move many of the current MS makers out to pasture.

While its wonderful to train and teach all these bladesmiths. The problem lies with finding collectors who will purchase these knives. Again, maybe that is the ABS's plan. To not aid in finding buyers for their makers work. This in turn will put more makers out to pasture as they will not be able to afford to move past part-time hobbyist.

Josh Smith pointed out he feels he is responsible for his own marketing. Which is as it should be for a businessman which all full time makers should be. However, we know that most knife makers apply little if any business concepts or theories to their work.

As for helping the ABS, I would be more than happy to volunteer my time....as soon as they change their current non-profit configuration. As it is now, they are paranoid about having to pay a dime in tax.

{why does the not for profit status put u off so much
the abs is looking for someone to do its web sight and i think will ay them
non profits CAN pay folks}




Which is why they feel they can't hire someone to actually serve as a web master for their site.

Come one Larry, hell they have the information on all the JS makers, dues paying members and they can't add them to the site. That is BS.

As for helping the membership of the ABS.

No one in the world has written more published articles on ABS makers in the last two years than I have. Currently I have articles on Tommy Gann and Gordon Graham in Knives Illustrated.

I have to think I am in the top 10 as to the amount of knives I buy from ABS knife makers.

As well I would put myself in the top 10 as to the amount of ABS members knives I have sold world wide to collectors. Many who have never owned a forged blade before.

Last, I have given business advice to any ABS maker who has sought me out. Either through one to one conversations or seminars that they have attended.
Part of my seminar for the knife makers is in the current Issue of Blade.

The only possible exception to that would be Mr. Fisk. He wrote a great book for makers some years back. This is a book that should be handed to every student who attends a hammer in or goes to Old Washington. On a seperate subject when is the ABS going to use some of the "Fees" it gets from teaching students there to upgrade the facility. Fortunately, OSHA can't get in there or they would be looking for a new location!

{ the school is owned by texarcana college not the abs}



As you can see Larry, I am doing my part to help the makers.

Now it is up to the makers to implement the changes they know are necessary to move forward the antiqued system the ABS is currently using.


{the abs is charged w education nothing else they have done it well }



Then again, perhaps they are just silently waiting to be put out to pasture???

moooo mooooo:)



WWG[/QUOTE]
 
larry harley said:
u r right!!!
its the pack mentality that started that i railed against
thers blood in the water everone go in to a feeding frenzey
and its especially insulting to hear abs members denigrate the abs
i,ll have 2 boxes on my table at the blade show one for the kids at french camp one for suggestions:)
harley
Click to expand...

hey I forgot to mention the other reason this thread rankled me so much
when I was knocked out from doing rounds of chem and couldn't work for MOS
they literally took care of me and my family
like ms carol said in her anti forums tirade
we R family
cut one of us and us all blead
I,am not the only one they have helped like that
the next time U see an ABS member walking around Mw a TOMB{ the order of the mystic brotherhood} hat or coat on
shake his hand
he's living and working above and beyond the call
 
Hi Larry,

The ABS feels it can't hire someone to do their web site? BS

As I said earlier non-profits can hire people. Obviously it wouldn't be a full time position. Which means no benefits, etc.

Actually the site could pay for itself from a slight increase in dues. Im sure the JS makers would kick in an extra $10 a year. It would be worth it just to get their names on the site. They could make it work if they wanted to...lets face it they don't care about the web site.

The college owns the school...fine. What are they doing with all the money they make from student tuition? It sure isn't to keep the place clean and void of hazards. Surely some of it can go to upgrade the facility. If the ABS is all about education, why doesn't it start its own school(s).

Larry, so you are saying the ABS charter says they are only supposed to teach educated potential makers? If that is the case fine. However, if the charter states that the ABS is supposed to educate the community at large....then they are failing miserably.

Then again, if like you the other makers don't give S**T about the way the ABS is handling items I have previously mentioned. Your right I shouldn't care either.

WWG
 
kdcknives said:
... The old guard has a series of juried journals that constitute the "bible" of the profession and they feel that all worthwhile articles and information must only go through these journals. The newer members utilize the web to discuss new procedures and techniques.

Both sides are not right or wrong---both sides simply exist and to eliminate one side because of a snobbish or elitist attitude is simply narrow minded and counter-productive. (Welcome to politics)

In reality we are debating do we want to dismiss the wisdom of experience or lose the rapid advances of youth and technology. Neither is a good choice.
Click to expand...

I agree with the above. But I hasten to point out that we have not seen both "sides" calling for the elimination of the other. We have seen the "old guard" actively seeking to to discredit - and openly advocating the elimination of - internet forums.

Roger
 
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