nv&#

[miguet]

If I believe I've correctly described a knife and the buyer takes issue with anything regarding it's condition, I would ask him to return it and I would provide immediate refund including return shipping costs. Avoids contention. If I thought I was in the right, I can choose not to do business with that person again.

 

[asdf12345]

-----

 

[KELAMA]

I have removed most of my original post and left only the guidelines. I feel that the discussion has been too much about my individual experiences. My purpose of sharing those experiences was not to draw attention to those experiences themselves but to give examples of how an item can be described less than thoroughly.

However, my mistake was not pursuing formal action when I had those experiences and there is an existing framework in place for doing so that is very effective.

I would also like to apologize for my sarcasm in my other GBU thread where I reacted to members pointing out my mistakes. That was inappropriate and immature and someone with more respect for the community would never have made a post like that.

That said I still believe in a comprehensive guideline for describing items for sale, no matter what that item might be. I hope that the guidelines in my original post can be of some use to both buyers and sellers looking to exchange knives.

2015 will be a great year!

FWIW: I think most member's who have purchased, or traded here on BF, have had the misfortune of buying a knife that was blatantly misrepresented; I know that I have! Beginning 2015, there will be consequences for these type of dishonest people.

 

[RevDevil]

Here is one problem with the verbiage I see in ads all the time. This is an excerpt from an actual sales thread here, bear in mind don't go and start any crap with the seller, or there will be repercussions. I am in no way "picking" on anyone, but I see so many sales threads every day that some of this stuff is just insane. In order to provide some context, the sale is for multiple high dollar items. here is the clip.

-Buy more than one, $10 off the second
-Gifted or +3%
-First "I'll take it" gets it
-I've got the right to refuse to do business, blah blah
-Insurance is on you, once I drop it off at the post office I am no longer liable.
-By buying an knife you are agreeing to these terms

Here is what I see as grossly wrong:
-Gifted or +3%
Really? You want me to give up all my buyers protection to save you a few bucks? Hell no! Why not look up what "gift" means and try again?
Can't you add the 3% and just list a price? Yet you are willing to subtract $10 after I buy 2 or more items? Does that mean I get my fees back that you should have paid in the first place or is that a bonus? It gets confusing for no damn good reason at all. This is just not a necessary thing to do, ever.

-Insurance is on you, once I drop it off at the post office I am no longer liable.
Actually, you are liable 100% for that package not arriving to it's intended destination. Need proof? Ask Paypal. They will set you straight 110% on what the extent of your liability is. If I buy an item and it does not arrived packaged well, and to my door in the condition you sold it to me as, we are going to have some problems, I can guarantee you that much. I consider this attitude a huge problem when dealing with people. Some may call it a "red flag", whatever you call it, it does not convey a "I want you to be happy with your purchase" sentiment at all. What it does convey is a "good luck you are on your own" attitude. Also some people do not understand the purpose of insurance. If you sell an item and it fails to arrive at its destination that insurance money goes towards making the buyer whole. You eat the loss for failure to ship properly, or with adequate packaging, postage, etc. Again, need proof, ask the folks that manage the post offices in your area.

-I've got the right to refuse to do business, blah blah
While this is true, the way it is stated seems a bit overbearing. I don't think I am being hypersensitive here, but why not word it a bit better and say:
I have the right to refuse a sale to (insert your reason here and include why).
That will convey a solid reasoning for that comment and give the buyers a better understanding of their position. It just sounds jerky as is.

-By buying an knife you are agreeing to these terms
No. The terms are dictated by the shipper, the forums where the deal took place, and the service used to pay for the items. Rules from the "land of make believe" have no influence in real life transactions.


This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of identifying the condition accurately of an item.

 

[Popsickle]

I had a guy send me a used m4 military once and it was dull as hell.... i used the small loupe sent with the edge pro kit and saw all of the chips and such that are from use.

To the OP.... this post is awesome. Unfortunately some people believe if they "didn't see it" then it wasn't there when they had it. If you want to engage in E commerce then you need to take a moment to look over your knife and accurately describe it. On thr flip side i have actually had 1 person cause damage to a knife and theb blame it on me. People do that to get a partial refund after the fact, because they know they can get over on some people.

On the flip side of this, there are some buyers who will buy a used knife* and then go over it with a super macro lens, or a microscope, find some microscopic, barely noticeable to the naked eye scratch or flaw...and then come in talking about how people are totally misrepresenting their items and OMG. I can't help but be amused. If I ever have a buyer like that, I'm not even going to argue with them, I'll get the knife back and post the auction up with the same words. I don't do microscopic detail inspections of ANY of my knives, and I personally find that unreasonable. So, if my point of view bothers you, block me now. Have a nice day! :thumbup:

Edited to add: if you receive an obviously broken knife that was clearly misrepresented, I definitely you have a case in that situation. Problem comes when you have folks buying used stuff and inspecting it with a jeweler's monacle.







* Here's a hint, if you aren't buying it from a retailer or direct from the maker, IT'S A USED KNIFE.

 

[Popsickle]

Well said!

Here is one problem with the verbiage I see in ads all the time. This is an excerpt from an actual sales thread here, bear in mind don't go and start any crap with the seller, or there will be repercussions. I am in no way "picking" on anyone, but I see so many sales threads every day that some of this stuff is just insane. In order to provide some context, the sale is for multiple high dollar items. here is the clip.



Here is what I see as grossly wrong:
-Gifted or +3%
Really? You want me to give up all my buyers protection to save you a few bucks? Hell no! Why not look up what "gift" means and try again?
Can't you add the 3% and just list a price? Yet you are willing to subtract $10 after I buy 2 or more items? Does that mean I get my fees back that you should have paid in the first place or is that a bonus? It gets confusing for no damn good reason at all. This is just not a necessary thing to do, ever.

-Insurance is on you, once I drop it off at the post office I am no longer liable.
Actually, you are liable 100% for that package not arriving to it's intended destination. Need proof? Ask Paypal. They will set you straight 110% on what the extent of your liability is. If I buy an item and it does not arrived packaged well, and to my door in the condition you sold it to me as, we are going to have some problems, I can guarantee you that much. I consider this attitude a huge problem when dealing with people. Some may call it a "red flag", whatever you call it, it does not convey a "I want you to be happy with your purchase" sentiment at all. What it does convey is a "good luck you are on your own" attitude. Also some people do not understand the purpose of insurance. If you sell an item and it fails to arrive at its destination that insurance money goes towards making the buyer whole. You eat the loss for failure to ship properly, or with adequate packaging, postage, etc. Again, need proof, ask the folks that manage the post offices in your area.

-I've got the right to refuse to do business, blah blah
While this is true, the way it is stated seems a bit overbearing. I don't think I am being hypersensitive here, but why not word it a bit better and say:
I have the right to refuse a sale to (insert your reason here and include why).
That will convey a solid reasoning for that comment and give the buyers a better understanding of their position. It just sounds jerky as is.

-By buying an knife you are agreeing to these terms
No. The terms are dictated by the shipper, the forums where the deal took place, and the service used to pay for the items. Rules from the "land of make believe" have no influence in real life transactions.


This doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of identifying the condition accurately of an item.

 

[craytab]

Rev is completely right. How are we supposed to go by a set guideline for describing condition when a lot of folks can't get the basics of the sale correct?

 

[asdf12345]

-----

 

[asdf12345]

-----

 

[asdf12345]

-----

 

[wtlj]

Added blade corrosion and discoloration to the list. Recently purchased a knife and asked for all the other details but forgot to ask about corrosion. The blade had small dots of corrosion on the non-presentation side swedge.

That should be common sense, but then again many of the recommendations in this thread should be!

 

[craytab]

Two more examples of sellers not forthcoming about the condition of their knives:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1251022-Heads-up-on-Seller-wilazn

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1250870-Problem-with-poboy26

There's a reason some sellers won't disclose details about their knife; they want more money out of it than it's worth with the issues considered. Keep in mind these were not minor cosmetic issues but function issues. These sellers knew they could not sell the knives for as much as they did if they mentioned that the knives were not deploying correctly or had lock slip/lock failure.

Inadequate descriptions, in my opinion, should warrant infractions. "Mint", "Excellent", "Used", things of this type are at best inadequate and at worst deceitful.

So are we going to repost all the sales gone wrong threads from the GBU in this thread in the GBU? We get it, people need to describe stuff better.

There will never be a set list of required description elements, just like there will never be a forced paypal goods requirement. Hell, we are lucky to even have the exchange at all. Let's not look a gift horse in the mouth.

If the description in the sale is not to your liking then don't buy it.

 

[RevDevil]

So are we going to repost all the sales gone wrong threads from the GBU in this thread in the GBU? We get it, people need to describe stuff better.

There will never be a set list of required description elements, just like there will never be a forced paypal goods requirement. Hell, we are lucky to even have the exchange at all. Let's not look a gift horse in the mouth.

If the description in the sale is not to your liking then don't buy it.

Agreed. We can't force or reasonably expect people to follow 100's of rules, and we aren't even going to try going there. The Exchange operates on honesty and integrity that comes from the members the community is built from. All we can do is suggest what people can do in order to have a smooth and trouble-free transaction experience. If they choose to follow it and help others along the way, that automatically earns the respect and admiration of many. If someone chooses to be purposely vague, deceptive, which ultimately proves to be a pattern of negative behavior we will deal with that by removing them from the community here. I think a general guide is in order and I am working on something, should be finished soon, and will be a constant work in progress as things change within the community.
You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them think.

 

[asdf12345]

-----

 

[craytab]

Uh, this is getting tedious, but I'll give it a shot.To start where you ended:

The truth is sometimes knives will come up that we want from Seller A and even though Seller B does a good job of being upfront about the details, Seller B just doesn't have the knife you want.I guess if Seller A has the knife but I don't like the description, I'll just give up. Great advice, thank you so much.

I never said to give up. You inferred that. If you want to give up that is your choice. What I am saying, and I think it is perfectly reasonable, if the description does not satisfy you, pass on buying the knife. Very simple.

And back to the beginning:

I'm not sure how this would solve anything.

Passing on a knife with an inadequate description for you solves everything. Don't buy it, no problems down the road, again, very simple.

Maybe 9 out of 10 listings say almost nothing about the knife. For every blatantly misrepresented knife sold on here I bet there are several more people who bought something and just lived with an issue that wasn't brought to their attention.

The description is only part of the equation. By far, what leads to the smoothest transactions around here is what kind of a member are you buying from. What id their feedback? Do they participate in other parts of the forum? Are just here to buy and sell? What is their history here? If you can't answer these questions favorably about a member, chances are there could be an issue with your transaction no matter how the knife was described.

Let's say someone tells you the knife he's selling doesn't have lock stick, so you buy the knife, and it comes with sharpie gunk all over the pivot. Then you clean the gunk out - oh, the lock sticks, what do you know? There's also fit and finish issues like daylight between liners, backspacer set unevenly, pivot screw scratched to hell. Hmm, none of the photos in the listing were at an angle where those issues could be seen. But it's a $1000+ knife and it rarely comes up for sale so what can you do?

Simple. Did he pass all the criteria I mentioned above? If so, ask for a refund and if he is a good member he will grant it. All the good members around here know a deal isn't done until both parties are happy. If you can't get a refund, hopefully you paid with paypal goods (as you should have). Go to paypal and start the process of getting your money back.

All it would have taken was five minutes of explanation and a couple more photos. That applies to a lot of knives for sale here. But that would mean the knife wouldn't get as much on the Exchange.

Irrelevant. See above.

Or how about this? You ask all the questions on your extensive list to make sure the knife you're buying is mint because you happen to want a mint one.

If you really want a mint one, don't by used. Yes, despite what one might think, if you buy from anybody but the company or a dealer, it is a used knife. If the knife can't be bought new then you will always be taking a risk buying used. Don't like the risk? don't play the game.

Everything seems well and good so you buy that knife for almost $100 more than it usually goes for on the secondary market. You get that knife and there are rust spots on the blade. I guess since I didn't specifically ask about rust, I had that coming, right?

Again, if the item comes not as described even after the member has passed the good member list above, take the appropriate actions as outlined above. Why assume you had it coming? That makes no sense. Seems like you are trying to start drama with statements like that. Take the emotion and drama out of it. Ask for a refund, if denied, start the claim process. Simple. No drama needed. No emotion.

The seller told you that you can have three days to make sure it's in the right condition. You send a message to the seller and say, Hey, I understand that you might have missed rust on the blade, sometimes we're in a hurry, right? I know it's been more than three days, so I was wondering if you want this knife back for its secondary market price - $100 less than you listed it for. That seller tells you, sorry, he's not interested, good luck! You list it for sale mentioning the rust and have to drop the price even further than that so it'll sell. Best week ever!

Not one word of this means a thing and is completely irrelevant. If the item is not as described ask for a refund. If it is denied, which it shouldn't be if this is a good member (see above), start the claim process with paypal. Best week ever has not a thing to do with what is happening here. Take the emotion out of it. Use logic and reason.

 

[craytab]

Seems like Rev is coming up with a set of guidelines. I don't know what that will entail but if it comes from Rev then it should be quality. That said, the vast majority of transactions happen on the exchange with out problems every single day. We are lucky to have it here. You are characterizing it as a shady place where deals good bad on the regular which is wrong. Deal with quality members. If you do this, and something goes wrong, quality members rarely have a problem figuring out how to handle almost any situation. If something does go badly, go to a mod, go to paypal, file a claim, take the appropriate actions. And most importantly, take the emotion out of it!

 

[asdf12345]

-----

 

[uofaengr]

Yes, there are some that get away with being as vague as possible when describing a knife as it increases their chance of making a sale. I have a fault of being too thorough (even been told this at work) and it probably has slightly hindered sales of some of my knives, but it's not a money making venture for me, never will be, and when I sell something it's to put it towards something else I'd rather want. I don't want to have to deal with a buyer accusing me of misrepresenting a knife or starting one of these wild, accusatory GB&U threads about me.

Something that has irked me for awhile is that I sold a particular knife that has two distinctly different types of lockup with the newer style being much more desirable to most. The seller I bought it from told me directly it was the older style and sent pics showing this. It was in fact the older style but was as rock solid as could be. When I sold it, I fully disclosed it was the older style along with every other single blemish on the knife. This resulted in little activity until I started significantly dropping the price. I ended up giving a good deal to someone who did me a favor in the past, and I've seen it for sale twice by two different sellers since then stating that it has the new style lockup and no mention of the other blemishes. I don't think it's my place to jump into the thread and give my opinion. I believe it's the buyer's responsibility to do their research so that they know as best as possible what they're buying.

I guess some sellers' opinions are that if they're as vague as possible, and the buyer asks no detailed questions and asks for no detailed pictures, then they can get one over on them thinking "well you never asked so it's not my fault, I said it was used". I think the guys who contribute a lot to the forum rather than just use it as a marketplace do a really good job of describing their items. But in short, the rules are setup to encourage freedom between the buyer and seller, and when you're buying, always do your research.

 

[RevDevil]

Seems like Rev is coming up with a set of guidelines. I don't know what that will entail but if it comes from Rev then it should be quality. That said, the vast majority of transactions happen on the exchange with out problems every single day. We are lucky to have it here. You are characterizing it as a shady place where deals good bad on the regular which is wrong. Deal with quality members. If you do this, and something goes wrong, quality members rarely have a problem figuring out how to handle almost any situation. If something does go badly, go to a mod, go to paypal, file a claim, take the appropriate actions. And most importantly, take the emotion out of it!

Yes, I am still trying to figure out some new guidelines. I've not had much luck getting quiet time to really write that or much of anything else that I normally write outside the forums. I'll see if. I can get a rough draft completed and a final copy soon. Good advice there in your post too.

 

[Monofletch]

Rev is spot on again.

My beef is when the item I sent is "delivered"--but the member doesn't reply to me-- yet logs on and posts.