Olamic Wayfarer 247 closing smoothness

[evilgreg]

I truly think some responses here missed the point for the most part. No animus here, just pointing out that the tip, pivot, butt, grip configuration (by that, I mean "1+3" finger arrangement, "bent tail", downward blade cant), and overall size are a really interesting match. I truly never saw it until I placed my 247 and 3.5" Spanto side by side (as well as stacked). Yes, they are very different and unique knives, but that doesn't mean they are not very similar in some compelling respects.

I hear you, but I have piles of knives that have downward canted handles with some version of the 1+3 layout, grip wise. Is this Southard just a like Hinderer as well, for example? If not, why not?

 

[Officer's Match]

I hear you, but I have piles of knives that have downward canted handles with some version of the 1+3 layout, grip wise. Is this Southard just a like Hinderer as well, for example? If not, why not?

OK, lay one on top of the other, aligning them the most compelling way possible, and see if the match is remotely as near identical as the 247/XM18. Again, I never saw it until I compared mine. They are extremely close in overall layout, albeit with huge differences otherwise.

edit to add: plus, we all know the Spydie Southard has terrible design flaws (re: hidden stop pin - LOL)

 

[Officer's Match]

You'd agree, however, that there's nothing "identical" about the two, correct? Also, and this is the real question, what if that design simply came about through standard desireable ergonomic qualities? A finger choil, and a grip which is designed to lean the blade of the knife forward toward the work while filling the hand. And are topside swedges on drop-points now a "Hinderer was totally the first one to come up with this" feature? Plenty of knives other than Hinderers (or Olamics) have a choil, downsloping grip, swedges, or three post placements at the heel of the knife. Heh, if the Cold Steel Recon 1 only had one choil, it would look a lot like these two knives. Does Lynn Thompson owe Olamic or Hinderer some royalty money? RUT ROW.

Never in any way said they were anything near identical in any way other than the overall shape/architecture.

 

[evilgreg]

edit to add: plus, we all know the Spydie Southard has terrible design flaws (re: hidden stop pin - LOL)

Oh no, and to think I've cut so much stuff with them all this time without knowing the danger that lurked within. If only I'd seen that one picture of that one knife that broke that one time I would have known about this ticking time bomb sooner

 

[Officer's Match]

Oh no, and to think I've cut so much stuff with them all this time without knowing the danger that lurked within. If only I'd seen that one picture of that one knife that broke that one time I would have known about this ticking time bomb sooner

A hidden danger only belied by it's banana shape...

edit to add, that particular one is just stunning in its Sketch glory. Very jealous.

 

[Quiet]

Never in any way said they were anything near identical in any way other than the overall shape/architecture.

As evidenced above by that Southard, plenty of other knives have those same design qualities. Also, sure there are some basic similarities, but they are shared by plenty of other knives. Would you find it rational for someone to go into a thread about Spyderco Southards and be like "Hey listen, I was hoping to get some help, I don't want to offend anyone, I am just asking for, you know, knowledge, but hey I was just wondering: Is Sal Glesser licensing that design from Hinderer? Just asking, not wanting any trouble. Maybe Sal can come explain. That'd be great, thanks!".

Also, full disclosure, I'm a huge Olamic fan*, but in this instance, the claims made using the term "identical" is what I take issue with. These two knives aren't identical. Nearly every single line on those scales are in a different orientation. Similarities of design? Sure, same as with plenty of other knives. But this absurd question which was asked under the pretense of wide-eyed blinking innocence like "So, is Olamic licensing this design from Hinderer?? Just asking, guys!" was clearly meant to start a negatively toned discussion, and thankfully plenty of folks see through that. It comes off as Cory trying to obfuscate the fact that he's accusing Olamic of taking Hinderer's design, and then demanding that Olamic's representative come in and explain himself. Olamic doesn't owe Cory any such explanation, because no design theft has occurred here.



*See my sig

 

[Officer's Match]

As evidenced above by that Southard, plenty of other knives have those same design qualities. Also, sure there are some basic similarities, but they are shared by plenty of other knives. Would you find it rational for someone to go into a thread about Spyderco Southards and be like "Hey listen, I was hoping to get some help, I don't want to offend anyone, I am just asking for, you know, knowledge, but hey I was just wondering: Is Sal Glesser licensing that design from Hinderer? Just asking, not wanting any trouble. Maybe Sal can come explain. That'd be great, thanks!".

Also, full disclosure, I'm a huge Olamic fan*, but in this instance, the claims made using the term "identical" is what I take issue with. These two knives aren't identical. Nearly every single line on those scales are in a different orientation. Similarities of design? Sure, same as with plenty of other knives. But this absurd question which was asked under the pretense of wide-eyed blinking innocence like "So, is Olamic licensing this design from Hinderer?? Just asking, guys!" was clearly meant to start a negatively toned discussion, and thankfully plenty of folks see past that. It comes off as Cody trying to obfuscate the fact that he's accusing Olamic of taking Hinderer's design, and then demanding that Olamic's representative come in and explain himself. Olamic doesn't owe Cody any such explanation, because no design theft has occurred here.



*See my sig

Not endeavoring to discern the intent of the poster in reference - just saying that if you align the tips of the two knifes, in B&W silhouette, they are very, very close to the same. Much like an Emerson Commander and a Benchmade Skirmish - very different knives of nearly identical profiles.

 

[KnifeWish]

When I was a knife noob (still am obviously. Been creeping around the forums for years, never posted), all knives essentially looked the same. Single blade, Snickers bar style handle.

Similarities?
-Drop point blade
-Flipper
-Lanyard hole
-Standoff screws


Differences? (These may seem insignificant, but you did use the word "identical")
-Jimping position (on handle vs on blade only)
-Opening hole vs thumbstud
-Handle material
-Handle shape
-Pivot Design
-Blade grind designs
-Edge shape
-Blade finish
-Flipper tab design
-Starting point of edge vs blade grind (same for Wayfarer, not same for Hinderer)

Probably some differences I didn't mention that I can't see. I can see where you are coming from though, there are way too many drop point flippers.

 

[Quiet]

I should also mention, if I was a Curtiss F3 fan, I'd say the same thing. The Curtiss F3 doesn't look like either of the 247 or XM-18 to folks that are actually looking at the knives themselves (and take a second to actually look at things like details, and the lines of the actual knives).

 

[Officer's Match]

Nice knife, the Curtiss. It's handle shape is quite different in my hands, more of a "2+2" than a "1+3" config. Otherwise, more Hinderish in build IMHO. For the record, I strongly prefer the Olamic 247 ergo's to either.

 

[Cory Hess]

So why would Olamic answer these questions?

Good question. In my experience in the knife world, most makers are very eager to talk about and answer questions about their knives. I recently attended a knife show where I talked to around 30 makers about their knives. Every one of them was very happy to answer my questions. Out of those 30 I'd say I made a direct comparison to another knife that I was more familiar with with about 10 of those makers. Every one of them was happy to discuss the similarities and differences. Out of those 10 I actually pulled out a knife from a different maker that I found similar about 5 times. Every time the maker I was talking to was happy to examine their knife side by side with mine and discuss the similarities and differences. This experience is very similar to experiences I've had at every knife show I've ever attended and also similar to every conversation I've had with a knife maker outside of a knife show. Over the last several years I'd estimate that I've talked to somewhere between 150 and 200 separate knife makers. I've never had one even hint that they didn't want to discuss their knives or answer questions. Is Olamic different in this regard? Do they avoid talking to potential customers about their knives? If so, I was unaware of this.

In addition to this, I'm very interested in hearing what the BF community thinks about this. It seems that there's an acceptance that a certain kind of design is going to be widely used by many makers. That's really what I wanted to know. I like my Hinderer in many regards. I'd like to find something similar that's easier to open, thinner blade, and left handed. If this design is specific to Hinderer I'm out of luck because he doesn't seem interested in making a knife like that. I assumed that that would be the case. I'm now finding out that there's probably a maker out there somewhere making the knife I'm looking for. I'm glad that I asked the question because I've gotten some useful information in the answers. It sucks that my questions upset you so much.

My bringing up the possibility of licensing wasn't an accusation at all. In reading about some knives I've seen it mentioned that Hinderer licenses out the use of the lockbar stabilizer. I've also read that Spyderco licenses out the use of the spydie hole. If this design is being licensed out I want to make sure that I'm buying a knife from somebody that has a legitimate license and not somebody that's ripping off somebody else's design. I'm sorry that my looking into this is so upsetting to you.

 

[Cory Hess]

I should also mention, if I was a Curtiss F3 fan, I'd say the same thing. The Curtiss F3 doesn't look like either of the 247 or XM-18 to folks that are actually looking at the knives themselves (and take a second to actually look at things like details, and the lines of the actual knives).

Not for nothing, but I had this discussion with Dave Curtiss and he seemed to be OK with my questions. Over the course of two different days we talked for over half an hour about the similarities between his knives and Hinderer's. He was one of the makers that was very eager to talk to me about the similarities and differences between his knives and the Hinderer that I pulled out to use as a comparison. It seems weird to me that a fan of a knife would be so defensive when the maker would welcome the questions.

 

[rexbo]

For the record the 247 has a floating backspacer not flow through stand offs like the XM18, yet another difference... maybe try looking at the knives from other directions (not just one side)

 

[Quiet]

Good question. In my experience in the knife world, most makers are very eager to talk about and answer questions about their knives. I recently attended a knife show where I talked to around 30 makers about their knives. Every one of them was very happy to answer my questions. Out of those 30 I'd say I made a direct comparison to another knife that I was more familiar with with about 10 of those makers. Every one of them was happy to discuss the similarities and differences. Out of those 10 I actually pulled out a knife from a different maker that I found similar about 5 times. Every time the maker I was talking to was happy to examine their knife side by side with mine and discuss the similarities and differences. This experience is very similar to experiences I've had at every knife show I've ever attended and also similar to every conversation I've had with a knife maker outside of a knife show. Over the last several years I'd estimate that I've talked to somewhere between 150 and 200 separate knife makers. I've never had one even hint that they didn't want to discuss their knives or answer questions. Is Olamic different in this regard? Do they avoid talking to potential customers about their knives? If so, I was unaware of this.

In addition to this, I'm very interested in hearing what the BF community thinks about this. It seems that there's an acceptance that a certain kind of design is going to be widely used by many makers. That's really what I wanted to know. I like my Hinderer in many regards. I'd like to find something similar that's easier to open, thinner blade, and left handed. If this design is specific to Hinderer I'm out of luck because he doesn't seem interested in making a knife like that. I assumed that that would be the case. I'm now finding out that there's probably a maker out there somewhere making the knife I'm looking for. I'm glad that I asked the question because I've gotten some useful information in the answers. It sucks that my questions upset you so much.

My bringing up the possibility of licensing wasn't an accusation at all. In reading about some knives I've seen it mentioned that Hinderer licenses out the use of the lockbar stabilizer. I've also read that Spyderco licenses out the use of the spydie hole. If this design is being licensed out I want to make sure that I'm buying a knife from somebody that has a legitimate license and not somebody that's ripping off somebody else's design. I'm sorry that my looking into this is so upsetting to you.

So, you're very interested in hearing what Bladeforums has to say about your accusation that Olamic has somehow copied the design of the Hinderer? Gotcha. Also, let me ask, did you go up to each of those knifemakers and ask them "Hey, this is a great knife, I notice it looks like you copied the design of another company's product, so I was just curious, hey just asking a question, not trying to start a fight, did you get licensing or...? I mean, I just figured you'd want to talk about your product, while you defend my insinuation that your design is a copy. Any thoughts? Thank you so much, just wanting to find out information, that's all!!"

How did that work out for you? Hey man, just curious, I'm just asking questions. Finally, I'm not upset in the slightest. I just choose not to let your accusations (politely stated or not, accusations are still accusations) stand. I'm sorry that it's upsetting you that some of us see past your attempt at asserting that a maker is copying the designs of another.

Ah, I love Bladeforums, where two disparate designs are considered "identical". LOL

 

[Quiet]

Not for nothing, but I had this discussion with Dave Curtiss and he seemed to be OK with my questions. Over the course of two different days we talked for over half an hour about the similarities between his knives and Hinderer's. He was one of the makers that was very eager to talk to me about the similarities and differences between his knives and the Hinderer that I pulled out to use as a comparison. It seems weird to me that a fan of a knife would be so defensive when the maker would welcome the questions.

I wonder, did you ask Mr. Curtiss whether or not he was licensing the design of his knife from Hinderer, and then ask him to explain why the knives look similar? It seems weird to me that someone would accuse knifemakers to their faces of using other knifemakers' designs.

 

[Cory Hess]

If I think that two knives are very similar then yeah, I ask about it. Like I said, I asked Dave Curtiss about the similarities between his knives and Rick Hinderers. I didn't specifically ask about licensing because I didn't consider that until I was doing more research later. As I said, I've pulled knives out that were similar to knives I was considering and asked about this. If it's a well established pattern that's been used for decades or even centuries, I like to know that. If a maker found a knife that they liked and just wanted to tweak it a bit to make it perfect in their eyes i want to know that. I don't have a problem with either, but I want to know what's going on. Sometimes it's a matter of two different makers having an original design that just happens to be very similar. Those are the ones that I think are the coolest, and sometimes I'll buy both knives just because I like to see who did it best and how their very similar processes turned out slightly different results. If you don't care about these things, then that's fine. I don't see why it's such a problem that I do want to know.

 

[Cory Hess]

I wonder, did you ask Mr. Curtiss whether or not he was licensing the design of his knife from Hinderer, and then ask him to explain why the knives look similar? It seems weird to me that someone would accuse knifemakers to their faces of using other knifemakers' designs.

The line of questioning was very similar to the questions I asked here. The only difference that I can remember is the licensing question, and that's simply because I didn't think of it at the time. If this design is in fact something that Hinderer licences out I will most definitely contact Dave again and verify that he has the proper license. If it's not, then obviously I don't have to do that. At this point nobody's even answered my question asking if Hinderer is the one that came up with this design.

 

[Quiet]

If I think that two knives are very similar then yeah, I ask about it. Like I said, I asked Dave Curtiss about the similarities between his knives and Rick Hinderers. I didn't specifically ask about licensing because I didn't consider that until I was doing more research later. As I said, I've pulled knives out that were similar to knives I was considering and asked about this. If it's a well established pattern that's been used for decades or even centuries, I like to know that. If a maker found a knife that they liked and just wanted to tweak it a bit to make it perfect in their eyes i want to know that. I don't have a problem with either, but I want to know what's going on. Sometimes it's a matter of two different makers having an original design that just happens to be very similar. Those are the ones that I think are the coolest, and sometimes I'll buy both knives just because I like to see who did it best and how their very similar processes turned out slightly different results. If you don't care about these things, then that's fine. I don't see why it's such a problem that I do want to know.

So wait, is it "very similar" or:

To my eye the Olamic Wayfarer looks like a Hinderer clone. More accurately, it looks like a modified, refined XM-18. The frame is pretty much identical, the spanto blade is pretty close to identical, the lanyard hole placement and shape is pretty much identical, and even the screw placement is pretty much identical. .

Hey man, just had some questions. I appreciate any help you can give me. :thumbup:

 

[Quiet]

The line of questioning was very similar to the questions I asked here. The only difference that I can remember is the licensing question, and that's simply because I didn't think of it at the time. If this design is in fact something that Hinderer licences out I will most definitely contact Dave again and verify that he has the proper license. If it's not, then obviously I don't have to do that. At this point nobody's even answered my question asking if Hinderer is the one that came up with this design.

I should have thought it was obvious that no, Hinderer did not design the Olamic 247, nor did he design the Curtiss F3. No one is licensing Hinderer's design on his XM-18 (at current, he did have Zero Tolerance make the 0562).

 

[Quiet]

As I've stated my piece, I won't browbeat you any further about your attempt at accusing Olamic of using Hinderer's design. I'll leave you with some actual knowledge that Eugene from Olamic is free to correct me if I'm mistaken. The Olamic 247 is a smaller, midtech version of the Olamic Wayfarer. The Wayfarer (and the 247) are designed by Mastersmith Mike Vagnino. I am sure he'd enjoy having to respond to your assertion that his knives look like Hinderer clones. Feel free to do some further research on your own.