On the Origin of Phantom Bevels

FortyTwoBlades said:
Only if you knew that your bit was inserted rather than overlaid.
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But we already know that. Overlays came later when newer production methods made high carbon steels more accessible and cheaper. The old stuff is virtually all inserted (uses much less steel).

And it was all inserted into wrought iron which moves so much more easily under the hammer. This is really a no-brainer for someone with a little forging experience and some metallurical history.

I appreciate all your comments. I expected this idea wouldn't be accepted by all. And I could be wrong.......but I really don't think so. It's such a natural thing for a smith to do.
 
300Six said:
Socked away somewhere I've got 3 or 4 metal detector-unearthed Upper Canada pioneer-era (1800 to 1870) axe heads that have tapered sides and high cheeks (and distinctly non-modern profiles) that aren't stamped and I'm willing to forfeit one or two of these to have someone expertly dissect them for a close look. I suspect there are folks out there such as jake pogg that can 'read' metal in much the same vein as I can 'read' wood. ...And that might begin to generate meaningful and realistic answers.
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That's a grand idea.

While I'm not a big fan of vinegar soaks you give it a try it on one of those old axes. If they are really that old I would expect to see visible laminations of the wrought iron and an obviously inlaid bit.
 
Square_peg said:
But we already know that. Overlays came later when newer production methods made high carbon steels more accessible and cheaper. The old stuff is virtually all inserted (uses much less steel).

And it was all inserted into wrought iron which moves so much more easily under the hammer. This is really a no-brainer for someone with a little forging experience and some metallurical history.

I appreciate all your comments. I expected this idea wouldn't be accepted by all. And I could be wrong.......but I really don't think so. It's such a natural thing for a smith to do.
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I know wrought forges easier, and overlaid bits as a production method came late in the game, but in terms of welding on new steel an overlay would be easier than making a new insert, and would still cost less than buying a whole new head. And do we know conclusively if beveled cheeks predate overlaid bits?
 
In fact, if cost of steel was that big of an issue, you could just do an insert in a piece of wrought and then overlay that.
 
I think that Square_peg bringing this subject up has a great value if only just because it attempts to tie the forging process with the shape and the function of the tool.
Some interesting historic questions have come up.How old is the convex axe-blade to begin with?(phantom bevels being a skeletonised form of it)?
(i know the answer to it,it's "very old".Here's a section of an old Piilu,courtesy of Niko Hynninen,https://imgur.com/a/8UWPB,similar thickening of the edge dates to about 8th-9th c.c. that i know of).
So then why it gained such popularity in the US,all of a sudden?
Americans did have a tough time at the very first,getting their own iron production going.It was a sort of a step-back,by European standards,where they had to rely on rural forges and other small-scale manufacturing.
In hand-forging an axe the material naturally moves easiest the closer it is to the edge,(it can actually be a bit more challenging to forge a flat,non-convex,blade).
Was that it,or the size of trees,or something else again?

As far as the relative value of iron i'm kinda confused...Things like that can be deceptive.A while back more that one scientific thesis had to be reexamined because suddenly it was proven that the iron and steel in ancient Novgorod was dirt cheap,and the knives that everyone assumed were very specially shaped were simply used up and discarded remnants,thrown away vs that careful recycling that emotionally we're all so attracted to...
That's a 1000-year old example.A couple hundred years back,with shipping often ballasted in iron,and it being already fairly widespread,how precious was it?Is there a way to compare a price of a new axe?Somehow in today's terms?...
(In Eric Sloane's "The Diary of Noah Blake",so about 1811,in New Hampshire,his father buys tire strap in 20' chunks,and afterwards sells remnants back to supplier,and it seems like it was fairly inexpensive...it has been a while since i read that...
 
In the case of the stone head I'd say that a major reason in that case was material properties.

As far as American vs. European iron and steel production, the US edged tool manufacturing industry historically bought iron from Sweden and Russia and steel from England, owing to the fact that for a long time (like, as late as the 1920's) there was a biased view of those materials as superior to domestic production. This wasn't really the case, as American steel production did start as lower in quality, but quickly caught up to its European counterparts, but still those buying the tools wanted European iron and steel. Manufacturers only weened off of it very slowly and were quick to brag extensively about the scientifically-analyzed quality of their domestically sourced material to stave off skeptics.
 
Americans have had a slow start in the early Colonial period because of the lack of proper type of Carbonate,used as flux in ironmaking...Eventually the source was located,at Saugus R. north of Boston,and things did get going....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saugus_Iron_Works_National_Historic_Site
Sweden,due to the abundance of her coniferous forests,had the luxury of being able to produce iron using charcoal...Along with their work-ethic and precision-oriented approach to things they did deserve that reputation,and "Swedish iron" was the Thing...(still kinda is).
England,yes,because of their rapid modernisation of steel-making practices,and then of course their leading role in Industrialisation in general,Scottish engineering tradition,et c.
(Russia's role as iron supplier i'm not very aware of..they generally managed to mess up anything they undertook,and i've never heard or read in any old blacksmithing info of them being any source of note,but i may've missed something).

But,we're talking later here,right?During when a guy could already purchase a manufactured axe from a store or mail-order joint?The beginning of 19th century,or?....
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
In the case of the stone head I'd say that a major reason in that case was material properties.

As far as American vs. European iron and steel production, the US edged tool manufacturing industry historically bought iron from Sweden and Russia and steel from England, owing to the fact that for a long time (like, as late as the 1920's) there was a biased view of those materials as superior to domestic production. This wasn't really the case, as American steel production did start as lower in quality, but quickly caught up to its European counterparts, but still those buying the tools wanted European iron and steel. Manufacturers only weened off of it very slowly and were quick to brag extensively about the scientifically-analyzed quality of their domestically sourced material to stave off skeptics.
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If I recall there was a great hue and cry about the US military's first bolt action repeating rifle (Springfield model of 1892) having to use imported Swedish steel for barrels that were capable of withstanding the higher pressures of new-fangled smokeless powder. Domestic-made steels that had been submitted for testing and evaluation did not pass muster.
 
Square_peg said:
That's a grand idea.

While I'm not a big fan of vinegar soaks you give it a try it on one of those old axes. If they are really that old I would expect to see visible laminations of the wrought iron and an obviously inlaid bit.
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I could have a go at this with one of them, but have never attempted this sort of thing before. Do I merely toss the head into a pail of household vinegar for a few days or a week? Obviously 'before' and 'after' pictures are warranted.
 
jake pogg said:
But,we're talking later here,right?During when a guy could already purchase a manufactured axe from a store or mail-order joint?The beginning of 19th century,or?....
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Yes--early 1800's. In my research on the American scythe industry, period documents often mention that the iron used for the manufacture of the laminated "scythe rod" stock from which scythes were forged was sourced from Sweden and Russia.
 
300Six said:
Do I merely toss the head into a pail of household vinegar for a few days or a week? Obviously 'before' and 'after' pictures are warranted.
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300Six,it's kind of you to want to try to doa all that...I'm not sure if it's worth trying to "clean"(?) the entire head....Very possibly one can just clean slightly(mechanically)some discreet portion of the after part of the edge at heel,say...Often,the dissimilarity of alloys is visible with the naked eye,due to the natural acidity of air.

If you do undertake pickling the entire head,i'd stop and terminate (clean mechanically and change vinegar)every time that the reaction,bubbling,stops.
But then again,gentle mechanical cleaning(with a plastic brush)and/or just close examination,May add up to practically the same result.
 
300Six said:
I could have a go at this with one of them, but have never attempted this sort of thing before. Do I merely toss the head into a pail of household vinegar for a few days or a week? Obviously 'before' and 'after' pictures are warranted.
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2 day soak then scrub and rinse thoroughly should reveal all.
 
Cheap Tupperware with a lid and gloves,rinse with a hose or in a deep sink before you start scrubbing that black crap goes everywhere and stains.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
In the case of the stone head I'd say that a major reason in that case was material properties.
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Square_peg said:
Stone is a whole different thing. Its brittleness demands a fuller rounder shape.
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I wouldn't go discounting the neolithic craftsman like that now. I think they were able to get what they wanted out of their material.:)
There is plenty of variety in the geometry to indicate the axe forms were made with intention and differentiation and not, strictly, determined by material, which is not to deny that played a role by any means. Not to belabor the point, as it goes a bit astray the topic, it is simply an undeniable fact that going all he way back to the origins of the axe the "high center-line" was present.

junkenstien said:
Cheap Tupperware with a lid and gloves,rinse with a hose or in a deep sink before you start scrubbing that black crap goes everywhere and stains.
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I have a couple chunks of iron, old anchor chain link, sledgehammer heads...I use as sinkers for holding handle billets submerged in water and when they come up after some months they are free from rust and black.
 
Ernest DuBois said:
I wouldn't go discounting the neolithic craftsman like that now. I think they were able to get what they wanted out of their material.:)
There is plenty of variety in the geometry to indicate the axe forms were made with intention and differentiation and not, strictly, determined by material, which is not to deny that played a role by any means. Not to belabor the point, as it goes a bit astray the topic, it is simply an undeniable fact that going all he way back to the origins of the axe the "high center-line" was present.
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Not discounting them at all--just I think the form served a different purpose with those axes. They're so thick that I VERY much doubt that the purpose of the high centerline was to prevent binding.
 
300Six said:
I could have a go at this with one of them, but have never attempted this sort of thing before. Do I merely toss the head into a pail of household vinegar for a few days or a week? Obviously 'before' and 'after' pictures are warranted.
Click to expand...
Two or three days will do it. You can reuse the vinegar again. I do it on heavily rusted heads simply because it cuts down on the dust when I go over them with an angle grinder. The more modern all steel heads will go right back to a dark color like they were never vinegar soaked after the cup brush on an angle grinder. For some reason it doesn't work on the soft steel bodies of the two piece heads, they still have that fresh out of the vinegar look.
 
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