Ontario BlackBird broke..........

[Thomas Linton]

If you have an axe. But "survival," by definition, means lack of access to vast resources, so you might have to improvise.

"40 years" - a good start.

 

[GarnetandBlack]

My Kenmore grilling tongs are more than capable of picking up dog turds in the back yard and I'm quite confident any employee would guarantee their ability to complete such a task. However, Some guarantees are just better left untested.

That being said, if Ontario guaranteed it, they should replace it. I'm not arguing that.

 

[338375]

If you have an axe. But "survival," by definition, means lack of access to vast resources, so you might have to improvise.

"40 years" - a good start.

Agreed. Ya 40 years is a good start. Hopefully I will have at least another 20 years of being able to spend time in the outdoors.
It has been fun teaching my son, who is now 15. I was fortunate to have great teachers, but I know there is still a lot to learn, and that is part of the experience...

My Kenmore grilling tongs are more than capable of picking up dog turds in the back yard and I'm quite confident any employee would guarantee their ability to complete such a task. However, Some guarantees are just better left untested.

That being said, if Ontario guaranteed it, they should replace it. I'm not arguing that.

To get back to the original topic, I don't agree with using a knife for that purpose, but if the company advertises the knife to be able to withstand that use, they should certainly replace it, and from what others have posted, they will take care of him...

 

[100eyes]

My Kenmore grilling tongs are more than capable of picking up dog turds in the back yard and I'm quite confident any employee would guarantee their ability to complete such a task. However, Some guarantees are just better left untested.

That's the worst analogy I've ever heard.

You're claiming it'd be best if a guarantee to baton was left untested on a survival knife.

 

[G8R8U2]

So for X-Mas I got an Ontario BlackBird. I got this knife because the maker claimed you could baton with it. Some state that you shouldn't baton, but as a knife maker, when you make a claim, expect that claim to be tested.

What I did:
First I baton a few small pieces of wood. Then I chopped for a few minutes. And finally I decided to baton on top of it to see if it could take the hits. I can't stress this next part enough, I put about 1/5 of my normal power into these swings. My normal hits on my CS LeatherNeck have never caused me issue, and with all my might I could not break my CS LeatherNeck. I'm gonna say it again in a different way..........The wood my BlackBird broke on was soft, straight, no knots, hit with very little power and it broke by the third hit.

Here is where it broke.

I'm gonna see if the manufacturer will send me my money back.

Couldn't you find a bigger piece of wood to "baton?"

I'm sure that "battoning" means different things to different people. Perhaps when the maker said that the knife was suitable for battoning he meant splitting small pieces of wood, not using the knife as a wedge to split tree-trunk size logs with.

Imho, all relevant discussion in this specific case ended right there on the front page. Looks like the OP was attempting to cut a large diameter log with a 5" bladed knife... uummm, what did you think was going to happen? That log required a machete, hatchet, or axe; or at the very least a substantial 7"-9" knife with a much thicker blade... RD9 or BK9?

As for batoning, it does seem like it's suddenly turned into some kind of fad for knife enthusiasts, moreso than a legitimate survival skill. Do I want to have the skill just in case I'm in an emergency that requires it? Yes. Do I want equipment capable of performing the task if I do it properly? Yes. Do I take every new knife I get right out of the mailbox and go chop down trees or hammer it into logs with another log? Of course not; it's a knife.

When I think of batoning (and when people talk about having been taught to do it in a survival class or whatever), I think of an activity that was intended as a last resort... something you are forced to do because you don't have the PROPER tool. In other words, it sounds like something you might be forced to do once to get out of a scrape; and your knife may or may not survive the experience, but you will if it works just this once. I don't think of it as something one does habitually to their knife for kicks and giggles or to test its durability. If you know you're going to be engaging in heavy work requiring a heavy cutting tool, TAKE A HEAVY CUTTING TOOL.

Just like with any activity, folks are going to inevitably push the envelope. When people first started discussing batoning a lot online and doing videos, they were splitting wood that was almost already kindling in the first place, and taking down saplings. As time wore on, proving one's knife was the end-all/be-all became important to many; and they started trying to take down larger diameter trees and if the knife couldn't split a stick of osage orange it was useless.

Bottom line; that very soft thing residing in that very hard thing resting on your shoulders is still the most valuable tool you'll ever take out on an excursion, so not asking your equipment to bite off more than it can chew (i.e. common sense) goes a long way in determining "survival".

 

[GarnetandBlack]

You're claiming it'd be best if a guarantee to baton was left untested on a survival knife.

Exactly.

 

[100eyes]

Exactly.

.....THEN WHY WOULD YOU GUARANTEE IT?!

Gawd.

 

[GarnetandBlack]

.....THEN WHY WOULD YOU GUARANTEE IT?!

To move product. One more guarantee is one more selling point.

 

[CWL]

Bottom line; that very soft thing residing in that very hard thing resting on your shoulders is still the most valuable tool you'll ever take out on an excursion, so not asking your equipment to bite off more than it can chew (i.e. common sense) goes a long way in determining "survival".

Unfortunately, the "software" oftentimes is harder than the hardware that is being used...

 

[100eyes]

To move product. One more guarantee is one more selling point.

 

[GarnetandBlack]

I think it's pretty naive to think Ontario is more concerned with producing the ultimate survival tool than they are staying in business. They more than recoup their losses from replacing damaged products from the additional sales that result from making claims of this nature.

 

[fluKeKe]

I enjoy reading these batoning threads especially the ones that devolve into batoning bashing.

First off the knife broke. If it is called a wilderness or survival knife then this is an issue. Also go back and reread the first post, the OP said he was he was hitting the spine to see if the edge would chip out. What some of you apparently thought you read was he was going to split that devil log with that knife by driving it in and twisting it.

To batoning bashers, most of you have probly grown up where you have to split cords of wood each winter for heat. As a result of this you are well seasoned when it comes to the usage of an axe. You most likely also had an experienced axe user to teach you. Some of us however are not as lucky as you in this knowledge and do not have to use an axe each day. I am one of those people. I do baton when I go out into the woods and would like to make a fire. I do this because with my knowledge in tool usage this is the safest route for me. My family expects me to come home with all appendages intact and I do everything I can to a sure that happens.

Also to the correct tool for the job people, I use a Bk2 mainly, that is a correct tool for the job because if you think that sharpened crow bar was designed for normal knife usage, as in slicing then you need to rethink some things.

Ofcourse batoning also includes knowing your tools limits and the correct selection of wood but that's a different story.

 

[killgar]

I'm curious about two things-

1. I wonder if Ontario will replace the knife. In particular, would they replace it if they knew how it was broken (seeing that picture)?

2. Do the members here think that Ontario should replace the knife?

Even if a knife company says that their knife is suitable for splitting wood, isn't it only fair for them to place a limit on what constitutes "wood splitting?

If, for example, a person tries to split the frozen stump from a 100 year old oak tree by hammering on the knife with a baseball bat, some might call that "batonning", but should the knife maker be required to replace the knife when it breaks just because they said it was suitable for "wood splitting"?

I don't imagine Ontario or any other company can specifically explain exactly what constitutes acceptable "wood splitting" in their waranty. Are they suppose to address every type of wood, green or seasoned, frozen or unfrozen, the size of the piece of wood, whether or not there are knots in it, what an acceptable tool is to strike the knife with, from what angle the knife must be struck, etc, etc.

Personally, I'd say chaulk that knife up as a loss and look upon it as a learning experience. I wouldn't hold Ontario responsible.

 

[kreole]

I'm curious about two things-

1. I wonder if Ontario will replace the knife. In particular, would they replace it if they knew how it was broken (seeing that picture)?

2. Do the members here think that Ontario should replace the knife?

Even if a knife company says that their knife is suitable for splitting wood, isn't it only fair for them to place a limit on what constitutes "wood splitting?

If, for example, a person tries to split the frozen stump from a 100 year old oak tree by hammering on the knife with a baseball bat, some might call that "batonning", but should the knife maker be required to replace the knife when it breaks just because they said it was suitable for "wood splitting"?

I don't imagine Ontario or any other company can specifically explain exactly what constitutes acceptable "wood splitting" in their waranty. Are they suppose to address every type of wood, green or seasoned, frozen or unfrozen, the size of the piece of wood, whether or not there are knots in it, what an acceptable tool is to strike the knife with, from what angle the knife must be struck, etc, etc.

Personally, I'd say chaulk that knife up as a loss and look upon it as a learning experience. I wouldn't hold Ontario responsible.

It's a good question and one I hope the OP follows up with once Ontario responds.

Their warranty says they'll replace it if it's deemed due to "faulty workmanship or faulty materials". Assuming it's a result of design and use over heat treat, that doesn't seem to imply they will replace it, and heat treat would imply a replacement is necessary. Of course many companies are stronger in their warranty's wording than they actually practice, so what it says could be immaterial, in which case it will be even more interesting to hear a follow up on this.

 

[TwinStick]

Yes, i do think they should replace it. Not only does Ontario state that it will stand up to nearly anything http://www.ontarioknife.com/, the designer, Paul Schieder talks in depth about it http://www.hedgehogleatherworks.com/Blackbird-SK-5-Survival-Knife-p/bbsk-5.htm. If you watch the entire video, he does talk about hard use & batoning, yet later on in the same vid, he gives a disclaimer about abuse. Kinda playing both sides of the fence or being politically correct ???

IMHO, no big deal. Stuff happens. Bad heat treat, flaw in the steel, etc... Ontario should replace it. :thumbup:

I am curious as well what they will do. IMHO, if they do NOT replace it, it will be MUCH BAD PUBLICITY. :thumbdn::thumbdn:

Lesson learned here:

If it is replaced---don't do that again with that knife. You now know its limitations.

If it is not replaced---do your homework better, as in use better technique and do not baton into something that is wider than your blade is long & when attempting to remove it, wiggle it up & down (maybe you did IDK ?) instead of left & right. My daughter did that with her Bear Gryills & bent the tip.

Either way--------------Bring enough knife & know it's limitations.

 

[JSMcustoms]

I'm up in the air as to if this knife should be replaced by Ontario or not. Honestly, I'm more curious to see what Ontario has to say about the situation and how they end up handling it.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Imho, all relevant discussion in this specific case ended right there on the front page. Looks like the OP was attempting to cut a large diameter log with a 5" bladed knife... uummm, what did you think was going to happen? That log required a machete, hatchet, or axe; or at the very least a substantial 7"-9" knife with a much thicker blade... RD9 or BK9?

As for batoning, it does seem like it's suddenly turned into some kind of fad for knife enthusiasts, moreso than a legitimate survival skill. Do I want to have the skill just in case I'm in an emergency that requires it? Yes. Do I want equipment capable of performing the task if I do it properly? Yes. Do I take every new knife I get right out of the mailbox and go chop down trees or hammer it into logs with another log? Of course not; it's a knife.

When I think of batoning (and when people talk about having been taught to do it in a survival class or whatever), I think of an activity that was intended as a last resort... something you are forced to do because you don't have the PROPER tool. In other words, it sounds like something you might be forced to do once to get out of a scrape; and your knife may or may not survive the experience, but you will if it works just this once. I don't think of it as something one does habitually to their knife for kicks and giggles or to test its durability. If you know you're going to be engaging in heavy work requiring a heavy cutting tool, TAKE A HEAVY CUTTING TOOL.

Just like with any activity, folks are going to inevitably push the envelope. When people first started discussing batoning a lot online and doing videos, they were splitting wood that was almost already kindling in the first place, and taking down saplings. As time wore on, proving one's knife was the end-all/be-all became important to many; and they started trying to take down larger diameter trees and if the knife couldn't split a stick of osage orange it was useless.

Bottom line; that very soft thing residing in that very hard thing resting on your shoulders is still the most valuable tool you'll ever take out on an excursion, so not asking your equipment to bite off more than it can chew (i.e. common sense) goes a long way in determining "survival".

A lot of good sense. But I wonder about: "If you know you're going to be engaging in heavy work requiring a heavy cutting tool, TAKE A HEAVY CUTTING TOOL."

Things seldom go wrong according to plan. The technique to get the most out of a tool if the unplanned becomes necessary ought to be learned just in case. A few knives may go to Knife Heaven along the way to learning. Or not. I have admitting I don't baton that much, but I have done so over the years with knives a lot lighter than the casualty here. I was just very careful - tap, tap vs WHAM, WHAM! No hurry when you are learning. I have yet to break a knife. (Broke a cheap screwdriver once using it as a pry bar - dumb!) Anyone who followed the link to watch old Mors baton didn't see full-power impacts. Plus the knife he used was thicker and made of O1 from a good maker. I doubt he was splitting Osage Orange or seasoned and knotty Southern Yellow Pine.

Anything can be overdone. But that does not prove it can't be done if some judgment and proper technique is used. Some people (I wouldn't) routinely baton hardwood with MORA's.

Speeders don't make driving ipso facto dangerous. Speeding does (among other factors).

 

[Moosez45]

Also to the correct tool for the job people, I use a Bk2 mainly, that is a correct tool for the job because if you think that sharpened crow bar was designed for normal knife usage, as in slicing then you need to rethink some things.

I disagree....

As for beastly knives that are made to baton, small knives split knots too.....

The Blackbird should take a good beating, with little to no damage. But you ain't gonna use it as a froe or single bit and split a log that large. It would be better to nip off the outside, because, if you are needing to split wood that large up for kindling, its gotta be small any how.

Interesting thread, though.

Moose

 

[bigbadboom]

No way that knife was gonna come out on top . As stated above you should have chipped the edges off along the grain , say from the bottom point of the log in the pic.

That said , when would you find a nice sawn log in wilderness ? If you have a saw - saw it up !

I wouldnt even consider batoning - except maybe for fun on a knife warranted to do so. Local wood in OZ is SO damn hard . You cant even split rounds with an axe - just gets caught . A block splitting maul every time - and even then I have to chip around the middle on the hardest seasoned logs.

 

[CRKS]

I think this is a case of using a good knife for the wrong job.

5160 and 1095 steel would be a better choice of steel for this type of camp chore. The SK5 is a superior wilderness knife however batoning 154cm steel is a bad idea no mater who the manufacture is. Take into account the blade thickness is 1/8" thick. and 154cm is better known for its edge retention not its toughness. Also the cold weather didn't help.

I looked for pictures I took about 3 years ago when I batoned oak logs and cut a truck quarter panel in half with an Ontario Ranger RD6. The RD 6 is 5160 High Carbon steel and the blade thickness is 1/4". It chewed threw anything I put it up against. Here is a picture of an RD9 I beat it up one after noon, it took a licking and kept on ticking. I gave it full throttle baton wackes and it didn't phase it

I think everyone needs to carry a couple a knives in the woods. A good chopper like an Ontario RD9, RD7, RD6, RTAK II, RAT7 ect and a Blackbird SK5, RAT3, RAT5 ect. A good folder would be a plus too! Sorry I'm partial to Ontario Knives I have tested them and I would trust my life on them.

Ontario has always been good on their warranty. If you tell them what happened I think they will take care of you however I would quickly buy a Ranger or RAT Knife for your batoning chores.