Opinions of this ?

The important thing I want everyone here to remember: we all share a love of the wilderness. That, for me, supersedes views on hunting, on politics, religion, etc., etc. We are going to find people from all ends of the belief spectrum here, and even if we disagree on some particulars, I want everyone to remember that if we were all in the same room, the vibe and camaraderie between us would prevail over any other differing views.

I have very close friends with whom I vehemently disagree on politics and religion, but we are close friends nonetheless because we just click and have the same sense of humor, or the same feeling about many other things.

Please hold this in mind, folks.

Edited to add: the reason our love of the wilderness prevails? Because we did not invent the wilderness. Something, or someone else did. However, politics et al are inventions of man. Those ideas can be changed. The laws of nature are a constant, and are more powerful than any ideals man has invented.
 
Here's the article in the Victoria Columnist newspaper;

Video of bear's death sparks Haida protest
No rules broken, says province's chief conservation officer
Judith Lavoie, Victoria Times Colonist
Published: Thursday, April 10, 2008
YouTube video of bear killing on Haida Gwaii


A gruesomely graphic video of the death throes of a black bear, gunned down on a logging road on the Queen Charlotte Islands by whooping and laughing hunters, is being used to mobilize protesters and members of the Haida Nation who want an end to trophy hunting on Haida Gwaii.

The video, shot four years ago by a cook working for Prophet Muskwa guide outfitters, which holds bear hunting licences in the area, is posted on YouTube and shows the bear trying to stagger to its feet as a total of six shots are fired.


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Font:****"Someone has broken his back, I would say," says one hunter, as the wounded animal tries to drag himself across the road.

Another boasts about the injured bear snarling as he dragged it up from the bank it tried to climb.

A protest is being organized for Saturday outside the hunting lodge. One of the organizers is poet Susan Musgrave, who divides her time between Victoria and the Queen Charlottes.

However, the Ministry of Environment says the video does not show any violation of hunting regulations.

"We got a copy back in 2004 and we went through it carefully and there are no violations shown," said provincial chief conservation officer Mark Hayden.

Kevin Olmstead, Prophet Muskwa guide outfitter, said problems are being manufactured by a small group of agitators.

"We are doing everything according to the law and they don't want us to do it because it is not benefiting them," Olmstead said.

It is always preferable to kill an animal with one shot, but there are times when it takes multiple shots, he said.

"What you see in the video is probably one of the worst set of shots, but there's all sorts of things in between that and dispatching the animal with the perfect one shot."

Olmstead said the former employee chose the worst-case scenario, out of hundreds of videos, to hand to opponents.

All edible parts of the animal are removed, as required by law, and given to an Island resident who makes it into sausages, he said.

Guujaw, president of the Council of the Haida Nation, cannot see any good reason why people should be allowed to come to Haida Gwaii to shoot bears - an animal tied culturally to the Haida.

The video shows what people on the Islands know to be a usual kind of hunt, he said.

"There is an absolute disrespect for life to laugh as you kill a bear," he said.

"It's just a disgusting habit these guys have to be getting their kicks by driving around and killing things."

Research shows there is little genetic difference between the protected white spirit bear and the Haida Gwaii black bear, said Guujaw, who is considering making a black bear poster saying "you wouldn't shoot me if I was white."

Guujaw said he believed the province had agreed three years ago to stop the trophy hunt and negotiations are now underway to try and settle the issue.

Environment Ministry spokeswoman Kate Thompson said a 2005 memo sets out terms for discussing an end to commercial bear hunting on the Queen Charlottes, but is not an agreement.

Musgrave and a group of islanders, the Friends of Taan - the Haida name for bear - say there has been no black bear census on the Queen Charlottes, so no one knows whether the hunt is sustainable.

Many of the hunters are from the U.S. and Europe and pay up to $10,000 for a chance to kill a bear.

"It's a pitiable act of cruelty, one disturbingly out of touch with a time when many of us are concerned about the preservation of life on our battered and bartered planet," Musgrave said.
 
The white Kermode bear is a variation of the normal black bear, the whole thing of saying the bears on the Queen Charlottes is little different then the Kermode (Spirit bear) is a red herring.
They are just trying to tie a normal bear to a genetic variant.
Most black bear hunts are less the $5,000
The $10,000 is more in-line with Grizzly hunts, but anti's have never been good with facts
 
10 year old (Was done in 1998 and it did use old figures) study by the government of BC, but it does show that we do have ahealthy bear population in BC despite what the anti's try to tell everyone.
The Kermode is protected in BC and cannot be hunted.


2.1 Black Bear (Ursus americanus) M-URAM
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2.1.1 Distribution
Black bears are year-round residents in all terrestrial Ecoprovinces and almost all Biogeoclimatic zones of British Columbia. Nagorsen (1990) recognized five subspecies for the province, of which three are considered endemic. Ursus americanus vancouveri is found only on Vancouver Island, U. americanus carlottae is found only on the Queen Charlotte Islands, and U. americanus kermodei is found only in the north central part of the Coast and Mountains Ecoprovince. The two other subspecies are U. americanus altifrontalis found in the southern Coast and Mountains Ecoprovince and U. americanus cinnamomum found throughout the central and eastern part of the province. Another subspecies, U. americanus emmonsii, has not been verified for the province by specimens (Nagorsen 1990), however, it is on British Columbia's Blue list of mammals at risk (Harper 1996). U. americanus emmonsii is considered to be found in the extreme northwest of B.C. in the Northern Boreal Mountains Ecoprovince.

The five subspecies of black bear described for B.C. were distinguished based on morphology and skull and dental characteristics. There is some DNA evidence to suggest that these subspecies may be more closely related than first thought (T. Hamilton, BC MELP, Victoria, pers. comm.). The subspecies status of black bears in B.C. is likely to change when DNA data are more completely analyzed.

2.1.2 Status
Black bear populations of B.C. are considered to be stable with an estimated 120,000 animals (Wildlife Branch 1991). The black bear is currently on British Columbia's Yellow list of species, with the exception of U. americanus emmonsii which is Blue-listed (Harper 1996).
 
FLIX, I'm surprised the hunter saboteurs haven't picked up on this and flouted it to the masses.


Brian,

These "HuntSab" types seem to be the radical wannabe fringe of the HSUS/PETA/ALF continuum. These groups have been using hunting footage, both covertly shot and lifted sections of commercial hunting videos. Fortunately, these groups are still largely thought of as fringy, so their propaganda is taken with some skeptism.

One dangerous exception to this the the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS). Unlike PETA and the ALF, with whom they are fellow travellers, they mask their radicalism with a deceitful name (This group has no affiliation with your local Humane Society) and mainstram appeal. They are savvy fundraisers and can be very effective at lobbying for their agenda.

As hlee states, the "battle" is for the hearts and minds of non-hunters, not anti-hunters. how we as hunters (or trappers, fishermen, recreational shooters, martial artists) comport ourselves is important. We can be our own worst enemies. There have been videos that HuntFlix will not to carry, because I believed they promoted a callous view of animals, promoted unethical or unsafe practices, or otherwise tarnished the image of outdoorsmen.

-- FLIX
 
I'd like to bring up a few points here.

I believe HSUS are the jerks who harassed one of our own Bladeforumers over a picture of an invasive raccoon he killed. His own commentary was taken out of context to paint him as callous and the animal as having been treated cruelly. They knew they were using him to forward an agenda unfairly. They do not care. We mean nothing to these "people" and they will gladly ruin our lives for their partisan purposes.

However ... there are two kinds of hunters, with overlap, and anti-hunters can exploit the overlap. The serious type of hunter is looking for food. The recreational hunter is looking for entertainment. He finds his entertainment in stalking and shooting animals. (I did this yesterday, shooting 8 pictures of a turtle with my camera. :) )

The overlap comes in when serious hunters enjoy the hunt and the company of others, and will often be exhiliarated and boisterous after a kill. This is the moment the opposition lives for, "disrespect for the animals" and "probably" "cruelty in dispatching them". They will completely distort the import of what a video shows unless we restrict ourselves to solemn, ritualistic expressions of devotion to Mother Gaia.

Not gonna happen. Outnumbered maybe, but giving in too quickly and completely to the ethos of the enemy is going to put an end to an ancient and necessary skillset until Mother Gaia is dressed entirely in concrete and glass and steel.

This is just one more battle in the clash of sides within our civilization that the essential difference between democracy and mob rule is that democracy includes safeguards for the rights and practices of minorities.

If everything is up for a majority vote at any time with no limits on what can be voted on, then the urban masses "win" every time, and the rural farmers and herders and hunters who feed them end up dispossessed and enslaved. See Rome, pan et circenses, bread and racetracks.

I'm not saying hunters should go out there and whoop it up. For sure don't go waving a rifle in one hand and a beer bottle in the other. But a certain amount of satisfaction with a successful hunt is something the world should remember is appropriate. Just think how those same urban masses celebrate when their favorite sports team wins a play-off.
 
I think that most, if not all, trophy hunters would be grossly offended by being grouped into the set of "recreational hunters." In my experience, trophy hunters are the most serious sort. Recreational hunting is what I liken to the kangaroo "hunters" in the first Crocodile Dundee movie. The truth is that there are many kinds of hunters, with the subsistance hunters on one extreme and executive/gentlemen hunters on the other, with most of us occupying some area in between. In fact, HSUS, PETA and the rest would love if there were only 2 kinds of hunters- then they could pit one side against the other and kill hunting from within. While I generally dispise quotables, a noted statesman once said "we must all hang together..."

Lead by example. Be the model in your hunting lodge. Again with the quotables "If you're not part of the solution..." Take a child hunting. Start with your own, then maybe ONE of his/her friends (one at a time anyway. expose as many as are willing). Don't have kids? Find a hunting/archery/shooting club in your area and join/volunteer. If they don't have a youth program, try to get one started.

Remember that we as a group- Hunters- are only as strong as our weakest link.

Learn how/when/when not to take pictures of your harvest. The hardest thing to learn is when NOT to take pictures of your prized dead animal. Leave the video camera at home. It is a hard enough fight against the antihunters without documentation that can be warped and distorted.

If you must take photos or footage of your kill, position the animal such that it is not in a disordered and haphazard heap on the ground. Wipe away any visible blood and put the tongue back in the mouth, or cut it off so it does not appear in the footage. Obscure entry/exit wounds. This is a perfect place to rest your gun or bow. The antlers are not a gun/bow rack. Be respectful in front of the camera. You neve know who may see this. Smile, you should be happy.

Most professional hunting videos take liberal advantage of "dramatic re-enactment." In other words, while some of the footage is real (namely footage of the animal and the "impact shot"), most of the rest is recreated after the animal is located. Ever wonder how the camera got behind the deer BEFORE the hunter found it, or why it only took about 3 miutes to find a deer that ran 1.3 miles?

Home video footage is much more raw, and realistic, but it is much MUCH easier to distort, because of that rawness. While we are on the subject, be very wary of anyone that wants video documentation of your hunt. Why was the video in question shot? It was probably intended as someone's keepsake of a dream hunt. It looks too clean to be hidden camera footage. Why do you want video footage? I can remember every successful hunt I ever went on, down to the smells. 14 years after the fact I could walk you to the exact tree where I had my favorite day hunting, and I didn't shoot anything. I bet these guys remember every detail of their hunt too, but for the wrong reasons. Video footage is fine, but I bet Paris Hilton is still thinking about when and where video footage is appropriate,and how easy it is to lose track of who has it.

It's okay to be excited after the kill. In fact, it is fully expected. If you are not excited after the kill, you are either dead or need to find another passion. But, remember your audience. Keep it inside until the animal is secured.

In short... Save the high-5s until after the animal is on the ground, dead, and the camera is turned off.
 
I have no issues with quick kill hunting and I realise that some hunts must go wrong but these were laughing as the bear was in agony, if it was me I would be upset I'd messed up and try to despatch it as quickly as possible.
As regards me not dealing with reality, everyday I deal with paedophiles, rapists, drug pushers and murderers, it's my job. They exist in all communities, that's reality, do we have to condone what they do because we cannot change it.....No I don't think so, maybe you do ?

They were not laughing because the bear was in pain, smart guy. That is a huge difference. They initially thought they killed the bear, if you actually listen to the audio. Once this was realized, a bunch of terrible shots tried to dispatch the animal. It has nothing to do with them celebrating a suffering animal, they were celebrating what they thought was a successful kill. All humans who have ever hunted celebrated their killing some way.
 
Mrs Pit again !! I think the guys in the video are Class A Jerks who probably had to be told which way round to point the gun!! They should have put the animal out of it's misery a lot quicker. I'm now waiting for the Headline in the paper that says:

"Man in Controversial Bear Killing Video found mauled to death by Bear" - now that would be Karma!!

Ahh...so killing an animal is immoral and wrong, but a human getting killed is ok?? How was the abortion rally?
 
Ok,
So I am going to try and sum up what I have seen here and respond:

1. Some are implying that these hunters intentionally let this bear suffer. This probably could not be any further from the truth. The first thing a hunter does if it realizes a bad shot is to try and correct it.

2. Way too many rounds were fired. True, but at least they didn't say 'crap, i'm not hittin this thing, let's go have a beer, it'll die soon enough.'

3. Only a bad shooter would have done that. What about anemic calibers or perhaps a damaged weapon. I gut-shot a deer on accident one time because the scope had been misaligned by the gun shop. Certainly nothing I could control and I pulled the handgun and shot the poor thing in the head.

4. There also seems to be an opinion that bear's life has more value than that of a human. This is not surprising, since we live in a society that believes murdering babies is ok to prevent inconvinience, but it doesn't make it any less disturbing.

5. The taste of bear was questioned. IIRC, it was tough but pretty good stuff.

6. Hunting and killing animals is wrong. Then enjoy not eating meat, it requires killing animals. Don't drink any more milk, it is animal food. Don't eat eggs, that's a baby fowl. Don't eat grains, many animals die in the equipment used to harvest grains. Don't drive your car, the fumes from exhaust are probably choking plankton. Don't use bug spray, bus are people too.

These guys were certainly bad shots at best, they need to learn how to operate a firearm.
 
Ok,
So I am going to try and sum up what I have seen here and respond:

1. Some are implying that these hunters intentionally let this bear suffer. This probably could not be any further from the truth. The first thing a hunter does if it realizes a bad shot is to try and correct it.

2. Way too many rounds were fired. True, but at least they didn't say 'crap, i'm not hittin this thing, let's go have a beer, it'll die soon enough.'

3. Only a bad shooter would have done that. What about anemic calibers or perhaps a damaged weapon. I gut-shot a deer on accident one time because the scope had been misaligned by the gun shop. Certainly nothing I could control and I pulled the handgun and shot the poor thing in the head.

4. There also seems to be an opinion that bear's life has more value than that of a human. This is not surprising, since we live in a society that believes murdering babies is ok to prevent inconvinience, but it doesn't make it any less disturbing.

5. The taste of bear was questioned. IIRC, it was tough but pretty good stuff.

6. Hunting and killing animals is wrong. Then enjoy not eating meat, it requires killing animals. Don't drink any more milk, it is animal food. Don't eat eggs, that's a baby fowl. Don't eat grains, many animals die in the equipment used to harvest grains. Don't drive your car, the fumes from exhaust are probably choking plankton. Don't use bug spray, bus are people too.

These guys were certainly bad shots at best, they need to learn how to operate a firearm.


I love hearing replies from people such as yourself bro because it makes me feel so much better about being ME !!!:D:thumbup:
 
I love this weak attempt at a personal jab...Feels just like middle school again...wow...

I love hearing replies from people such as yourself bro because it makes me feel so much better about being ME !!!:D:thumbup:

Hmm..I don't have the same reaction to posting on 'teh interwebz' so I guess you need all the help you can get if you feel that way. Glad I could help :jerkit:

And I apologize for throwing the logic in there, I know how that must be annoying...
 
The facts are though that you have not been logical, in fact I would assume you have smoked too much Wacky Bacca at the God -forsaken hippy haven where you say you live !!!
You quote this....
6. Hunting and killing animals is wrong. Then enjoy not eating meat, it requires killing animals. Don't drink any more milk, it is animal food. Don't eat eggs, that's a baby fowl. Don't eat grains, many animals die in the equipment used to harvest grains. Don't drive your car, the fumes from exhaust are probably choking plankton. Don't use bug spray, bus are people too.

Yet my comments were aimed at the suffering that bear endured, I have never condemmed any other hunting I have read or seen anything about ( except fox hunting in the UK ). I am in no way a vegetarian and have skinned rabbits and prepared game birds for the table myself. When free range chickens or cows are slaughtered for the supermarket shelves their suffering is much less than that bear endured and is never followed by big grins and shouts of excitement . I am a firm believer in killing what you need and I guess if I was in a situation where I needed food then yeah I would kill a bear but my feelings would be of respect for that animal in putting food on my table not shouts of delight because I had something to brag about in the bar to my buddies !!!
 
The facts are though that you have not been logical, in fact I would assume you have smoked too much Wacky Bacca at the God -forsaken hippy haven where you say you live !!!
You quote this....
6. Hunting and killing animals is wrong. Then enjoy not eating meat, it requires killing animals. Don't drink any more milk, it is animal food. Don't eat eggs, that's a baby fowl. Don't eat grains, many animals die in the equipment used to harvest grains. Don't drive your car, the fumes from exhaust are probably choking plankton. Don't use bug spray, bugs are people too.

Yet my comments were aimed at the suffering that bear endured, I have never condemmed any other hunting I have read or seen anything about ( except fox hunting in the UK ). I am in no way a vegetarian and have skinned rabbits and prepared game birds for the table myself. When free range chickens or cows are slaughtered for the supermarket shelves their suffering is much less than that bear endured and is never followed by big grins and shouts of excitement . I am a firm believer in killing what you need and I guess if I was in a situation where I needed food then yeah I would kill a bear but my feelings would be of respect for that animal in putting food on my table not shouts of delight because I had something to brag about in the bar to my buddies !!!

Hmm...maybe if you had the ability of English comprehension you would have clearly seen that those were statements gathered from the entire thread, not simply from your post. Yay for reading!!
 
I'll agree to disagree with you bro ! This has turned into Whine and Cheese material and that's not the type of forum I like to participate on.

The people that matter to me on this forum seem to tolerate my poor English skills so this will be my last post on this thread and I'll go back to communicating with those persons whose company I enjoy !
 
I'll agree to disagree with you bro ! This has turned into Whine and Cheese material and that's not the type of forum I like to participate on.

The people that matter to me on this forum seem to tolerate my poor English skills so this will be my last post on this thread and I'll go back to communicating with those persons whose company I enjoy !

Hahaha...wow...you disagree with the FACT that you mis-read what I typed. :jerkit:
 
Which of you is the bear and which of you is the bad shot?
What part of "discuss the topic, not each other" is not clear to you?
 
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