Outrage: NYC DA Shakes Down Knife Retailers

[charlesbjr]

Charles that is the NY STATE law not the city. The city ( Admin code) bans knives with over 4" blades unless you are going to and from certain activities, which included fishing. I sense the KABAR was pictured due to the blade being over 4".

The section quoted 265.20#6, was put into the law back in 1958 when the law was passed to cover the use of knives already owned. Due to the wording, it does cover a knife that you possess for those reasons, but I would not recommend carrying a switchblade around all day saying you are using it for fishing....

Tom, agree on the 4" limit in the city unless legitimately hunting or fishing. But lets confuse me a bit more. I thought in NYC, you can own a switchblade or gravity knife (or what they perceive to be) if you were hunting, fishing or trapping (again, truly doing so). The reason why I ask is can't the stores selling them indicate that they are for the outdoors-man (or woman) engaged in those activities? Also, is there a limit on the blade length in NYC if going to and from the noted activities? I did not think so. If that is the case, that K-Bar should not be in the pic!

 

[shorel2]

I too live in NYC. After I saw yesterday's NY Daily News story, and then went to the DA's website, I went to Paragon today to see what they had left. They used to sell a pretty complete line of Benchmade, Spyerderco and Emerson. All they had left today were Leatherman and Swiss Army. Oh and of course the $2k and up custom folders. I asked the guy there what the cops took away and he couldn't tell me.

I have been told by a salesman at Iceberg Army Navy that the police will take a folding knife, HOLD IT BY THE BLADE NEAR THE POINT, and then snap their wrist to see if they can get the handle to move into the locked position. If so, they deem the knife a forbidden "gravity knife" b/c it locks into place by the application of centrifugal force (the statutory definition). To me this is sheer madness. And it would apply equally to the fancy folders in the glass display case, in many cases.

From what I've seen so far, this looks like political grandstanding by a newly elected DA who doesn't know sh*t from shinola when it comes to folding knives. To make matters worse they claim they are going after internet retailers. So does that mean no one can buy benchmades or spyderco's in this city? What about the two custom knife shows held in Times Square every year? Spyderco usually has its own table there. To say nothing of the custom makers from all over the world (some of whom do sell switchblades that are, imo, clearly illegal under NYS law).

I am also a lawyer and I'm going to see what I can do about this. For starters, I'm going to try to get a list of the makes and models of knives confiscated. If they won't hand it over I will do a Freedom of Information Law (it is called "FOIL" in NY) request.

 

[tom19176]

shorel, the help of a lawyer who cares would be wonderful! I am a former NYC LEO, and the way the law is being enforced is totally out of control, and not what the intention was went the law was passed. The holding the blade and flicking the handle has been upheld by some judges and not by others. True switchbaldes can be owned for fishing, hunting and trapping (PL 265.20#6), but the transfer or ownership is allowed only to a few.

Charles, if you were not on your way to those activities, and were carrying the fixed blade then it would be illegal, of if you were so foolish as to say you were carrying it as a weapon....

 

[shorel2]

btw the NYT published a photo of the table spread with some of the 1,300 allegedly "illegal" knives that have been turned in (not relatively small number actually purchased; not clear who determined that these knives are illegal). link: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/nyregion/18knives.html Looking closely I can clearly recognize at least one benchmade, one emerson and one or more spyderco's on that table.

now to be fair, i've had an emerson, and it can be opened with a flick of the wrist, at least as sold. it's probably possible to tighten the hex nuts on the blade to prevent that (i don't know, b/c that particular knife seems to have vanished). I liked the knife b/c of its overall feel in my hand, the combination of weight, balance, and the micarta handle. but as far as opening with a flick, you can't do that with benchmade or any decent custom folder. and the only way to do it with a spydie is to hold the knife by the blade which is just nuts.

Iceberg Army Navy had all their serious folders confiscated by the police about six years ago and haven't sold them since. They were the best place in NY to buy Kershaws, Benchmades, Spyerdercos, Emersons and several other less-reputable "made in China" brands if that was your thing. They hired a lawyer to try to get them back, I don't know what happened but I do know they don't sell serious knives any more. The knife salesman probably didn't help matters by enthusiastically demonstrating how fast he could whip out certain knives (eg Emerson wave) and how he had badly hurt himself in one such demonstration (I went in there once and his hand was all bandaged up).

But the NYPD apparently consider any folding, locking knife an illegal gravity knife. And they also apparently have an unwritten rule that makes it illegal to carry a knife by a clip, I've heard too many stories and I am not even a criminal defense attorney.

 

[shorel2]

ps I wonder if the NY DA is aware of this Court of Appeals decision that came down earlier this week: http://www.law.cornell.edu/nyctap/I10_0111.htm New York's highest court adopted the reasoning of federal district judge Weinstein in the Irizarry case who concluded that the Husky is NOT a gravity knife. Yet in the DA's own publicity, there are stacks of confiscated Husky's.

 

[tom19176]

shorel, the "exposed clip" is from the 1988 law passed by the city council ( NYC Admin Code 10-133 & 10-134). It limits blade lenght to 4" and bans open carry unless you are going to and from certain activities. The other ones bans the sale of locking baldes over 4" of blade lenght. These laws were not enforced until Mayor Mike came to town ( even under Rudy they were not pushed). I am mad that the manufactures and national retailers are not fighting this, as the wording in MOST state laws is as bad or worst than the NY definition of a gravity knife ( not requiring locking, stateing inertia, flicking, etc), and if you don't think the day will come when you are in the same place a Manhattan resident is in today, then think again. For the moment anyone living in NYC should get a fishing license and cheap set up of fsihing equipment and consider them a permit system for possession in your house of what is now an illegal gravity knife.....

 

[GingivitisKahn]

btw the NYT published a photo of the table spread with some of the 1,300 allegedly "illegal" knives that have been turned in (not relatively small number actually purchased; not clear who determined that these knives are illegal). link: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/18/nyregion/18knives.html Looking closely I can clearly recognize at least one benchmade, one emerson and one or more spyderco's on that table.

now to be fair, i've had an emerson, and it can be opened with a flick of the wrist, at least as sold. it's probably possible to tighten the hex nuts on the blade to prevent that (i don't know, b/c that particular knife seems to have vanished). I liked the knife b/c of its overall feel in my hand, the combination of weight, balance, and the micarta handle. but as far as opening with a flick, you can't do that with benchmade or any decent custom folder. and the only way to do it with a spydie is to hold the knife by the blade which is just nuts.

Iceberg Army Navy had all their serious folders confiscated by the police about six years ago and haven't sold them since. They were the best place in NY to buy Kershaws, Benchmades, Spyerdercos, Emersons and several other less-reputable "made in China" brands if that was your thing. They hired a lawyer to try to get them back, I don't know what happened but I do know they don't sell serious knives any more. The knife salesman probably didn't help matters by enthusiastically demonstrating how fast he could whip out certain knives (eg Emerson wave) and how he had badly hurt himself in one such demonstration (I went in there once and his hand was all bandaged up).

But the NYPD apparently consider any folding, locking knife an illegal gravity knife. And they also apparently have an unwritten rule that makes it illegal to carry a knife by a clip, I've heard too many stories and I am not even a criminal defense attorney.

I would *love* to see someone with proper standing bring a 2nd Amendment based case with regard to this crap. Additionally, I'd love to see the DA charged for extorting money from the knife shops - seems RICO might be applicable here.

 

[shorel2]

I would *love* to see someone with proper standing bring a 2nd Amendment based case with regard to this crap. Additionally, I'd love to see the DA charged for extorting money from the knife shops - seems RICO might be applicable here.

using the 2nd amendment has occurred to me. philosophically i have a problem with that, since I personally support gun control laws particularly in new york city, and in arguments i have with gun fans, i often say that knives are different because you just don't see too many drive-by knifings, or random knives hitting innocent bystanders a block away, or knives that have the ability to spray stabbings in rapid fire fashion. also my own primary use of folding knives is not as a weapon but as a tool and as objet d'art. and i fail to see any principled distinction between the fancy folders in the paragon display case and the benchmades they used to sell, other than price, so the DA seems to have gone after any knives ordinary people can afford by threatening baseless prosecutions against corporations with better things to do with their money than spend it on lawyers.

nonetheless, i don't see how the 2nd amendment is limited to firearms. it says the right to bear arms. as long as the law continues to evolve in favor of gun rights, i would suggest that the greater (firearms) includes the lesser (blades).

while i used the word "extortion" I don't believe a RICO suit against the DA is the way to go. I have litigated (on the defense side) several RICO cases and there are too many legal and procedural hurdles to such a case. you give the DA the moral high ground, put yourself on the defensive and waste uncountable hours and resources fighting on the defense, when you still have to win on the underlying point that the DA's interpretation of the law is wrong. plus which if you haven't actually given up your knives or paid any money, you have no damages; and if you have, in all likelihood you have also signed some kind of document that is like a plea bargain that waives your right to bring such a suit. If there's a way to bring a section 1983 suit, you can get attorney's fees if you win. Now there are abstention grounds that might make that difficult too, but since I haven't briefed this in some time I would think perhaps not insurmountable.

 

[OldDude1]

This quote was a favorite of an elderly attorney I knew when I was a teenager. He said it was the reason he still practiced law long after he could have retired. OldDude1


"Laws can embody standards; governments can enforce laws — but the final task is not a task for government.It is a task for each and every one of us. Every time we turn our heads the other way when we see the law flouted when we tolerate what we know to be wrong — when we close our eyes and ears to the corrupt because we are too busy, or too frightened — when we fail to speak up and speak out we strike a blow against freedom and decency and justice." -- Robert F. Kennedy, circa 1961

 

[goodeyesniper]

posted this in the duplicate thread:

In my opinion, public officials who overstep the powers of the law to incriminate people, especially with straight forward case law going against them, need to be thrown in jail. It's not enough that we simply "prove him wrong" in court, and he says "whoops, my bad". He needs to be prosecuted criminally.

Think of it this way. Ignorance of the law is NOT a defense for us average joes. However ignorance of the law IS an excuse for our law enforcement officials. Us "breaking the law" by accidentally carrying a knife half an inch too long, or with a pivot screw that came loose harms NOBODY, and can land us in jail with thousands of dollars of legal fees. Meanwhile, the people who are SWORN to uphold the law get their job wrong, which puts MANY people in peril, and they say "oops, now I know what not to do." This is absolutely bassackwards and needs to be fixed.

This guy needs to be tarred and feathered.

Even with the upcoming Chicago v McDonald supreme court case hopefully going in our favor (2nd amendment) at the end of the month, I have a feeling that certain Authoritarian holdouts like NYC, Chicago, and SF will continue criminalizing the common man, with little to no punishment for those in power.

 

[artmichalek]

You expect Home Depot or Lowes to risk millions in legal fees & potential Felony Convictions to save 0.001% of their sales?

But they have to be asking themselves, "What's next?". It's a hardware store, and they have a lot of items in their inventory that could be used to hurt people. If this case becomes precedent, then there's nothing to prevent pipes, shovels, cordless circular saws, etc... from being retroactively classified as "illegal weapons".

 

[shelbysguns]

I know what I am saying is wrong and not the way to fix the problem. But, give me 10 minutes w/o one of those "dangerous murder weapons" in the room with that DA, and he would come around to my point of view. I don't live in NYC, I've been there one time, and now I will never return. On that table full of knives in the link I can see:
A BenchMade 890 Torrent
Spyderco Chinook 3
Spyderco Tim Zowada
BenchMade Nitrous Stryker
Spyderco Sage 1
Surefire knife ( I don't know what model)
Benchmade 755 MPR
Buck Vantage
SOG Trident
And many more, I would LOVE to have any of those knives, and I'm sure that many in New York would too. But, no they are going to be wasted and destroyed. This is dang shame. The people of new york who let this go on ( the knifenuts who are resisting excluded) should buck up and resist this.

 

[GingivitisKahn]

The people of new york who let this go on ( the knifenuts who are resisting excluded) should buck up and resist this.

Amen to that!

 

[TheCarbideRat]

I sense a trend here, of following what's happening in England where knives are pretty much forbidden, what some over there are doing is carrying surefire flashlights for self defense. NY is next apparently ... those "dangerous" knives. And I really think they are going to take it to the next level someday soon:grumpy:.

How about an easily obtained permit where as long as you don't have a felony you can carry any knife and you only need to get it one time? Would that really be bad? I know I know .. a knife permit, it really sucks but I'd do it if that's what it took and I could carry anything I wanted, NY can be a nuts place...just my $.02.

 

[stealthchaser13]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/ny_...t_eastern_mountain_sports_to_rid_nyc_of_.html

***** "Manhattan prosecutors are taking a stab at ridding city stores of illegal knives.

Investigators bought switchblades and gravity knives - prohibited in the state - at 14 locations, including big-name retailers Home Depot, Paragon and Eastern Mountain Sports.

The stores - and four others - have already agreed to stop selling them, relinquish their inventories, turn over all profits from selling the illegal blades over the past four years and contribute to a public awareness campaign."
*****

I sense a trend here, of following what's happening in England where knives are pretty much forbidden, what some over there are doing is carrying surefire flashlights for self defense. NY is next apparently ... those "dangerous" knives. And I really think they are going to take it to the next level someday soon:grumpy:.

How about an easily obtained permit where as long as you don't have a felony you can carry any knife and you only need to get it one time? Would that really be bad? I know I know .. a knife permit, it really sucks but I'd do it if that's what it took and I could carry anything I wanted, NY can be a nuts place...just my $.02.

manhattan/NYC is crazy regarding knife laws anyway...the state of NY laws aren't too bad...though the no dagger law is making it kinda hard while im investigating getting a boot knife.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Previous 2 posts moved from Current Events. We don't need the same discussion everywhere, so I'm keeping it to Knife Laws and Political Arena.

 

[decimatorair]

The very law in itself is a contradiction......

...Knife that opens under centrifugal force is a gravity knife..

grav·i·ty (grv-t)
n.
1. Physics
a. The natural force of attraction exerted by a celestial body, such as Earth, upon objects at or near its surface, tending to draw them toward the center of the body.
b. The natural force of attraction between any two massive bodies, which is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them.
c. Gravitation.
2. Grave consequence; seriousness or importance: They are still quite unaware of the gravity of their problems.
3. Solemnity or dignity of manner.


Centrifugal force is: Fc = mv2/r, where Fc = centrifugal force, m = mass, v = speed, and r = radius.
An object traveling in a circle behaves as if it is experiencing an outward force. This force, known as the centrifugal force, depends on the mass of the object, the speed of rotation, and the distance from the center. The more massive the object, the greater the force; the greater the speed of the object, the greater the force; and the greater the distance from the center, the greater the force.

The definition of gravity and the definition of centrifugal force are two completely different things and it has been proved by science they are not one in the same..it is amazing this is being tolerated by the citizens of NY



There are always people in the world that will commit crimes no matter how much power government takes away from a population. In maximum security prisons, convicts under 24hr watch make weapons and harm other inmates. The idea that taking away weapons or drugs in turn, takes away crime is a government media lie used to soften citizens allowance for invasive laws..The end goal in all this is added revenue for the state..Drugs are illegal no matter what state you live in and billions of dollars a year are spent on enforcement and technology to fight against them..Yet for all the drug campaigns and special departments, and teenagers in jail, drugs are a bigger problem than ever before..The idea that making things illegal to stop behavior has never worked in any dictatorship known in history..At some point people realize the hidden agenda behind the dictionary of laws set up to control their lives and their wallets.. If one were to look back at the 1950's, a switchblade and a remington 22 pistol could be purchased from a sears catalog through the mail yet at that time in history there were not nearly as many violent crimes as we have today..When laws such as these are created it gives the appearance of high crime and a need for more enforcement..If new laws were not added on a daily basis there would be alot of people out of work in our government system..​

 

[TOM1960]

I sense a trend here, of following what's happening in England where knives are pretty much forbidden, what some over there are doing is carrying surefire flashlights for self defense. NY is next apparently ... those "dangerous" knives. And I really think they are going to take it to the next level someday soon:grumpy:.

How about an easily obtained permit where as long as you don't have a felony you can carry any knife and you only need to get it one time? Would that really be bad? I know I know .. a knife permit, it really sucks but I'd do it if that's what it took and I could carry anything I wanted, NY can be a nuts place...just my $.02.

Florida's concealed weapon permit allows for the carry of knives, firearms, batons, pepper spray, etc. They are easy to get. The only reason why I would not want to see a knife permit system in NYC/NY State, New Jersey and my own home state of Massachusetts is because it would become just another bureaucracy full of abuse. LEOs, their families, those with political connections, the rich/famous (the Trump family, for example) would be able to obtain unrestricted knife carry permits, just as they obtain unrestricted gun permits. The average Joe Citizen would receive a highly restricted permit, if he is lucky enough to get one at all. The restricted permit would most likely allow for carry to and from certain activities (fishing/hunting, employment, etc.) and the law currently allows these exceptions. Of course, highly paid bureaucrats would run the system, resulting in another drain on taxpayers. The fees that would be charged would be higher than the retail value of the knife that is to be carried. Criminals would continue to carry whatever they damn well please. Only the law-abiding would end up standing in line for permits.

 

[swamp]

Join kniferights, if your a member donate as much as you can afford. Please, they can help.

 

[artmichalek]

How about an easily obtained permit where as long as you don't have a felony you can carry any knife and you only need to get it one time?

Any state issued identification can be checked for felony convictions. That's why they don't bother issuing concealed handgun permits here (VT). If age sixteen and non-felon are the only qualifiers it's easier just to check a driver's license.