Overboard with Blade Thickness: Your Mod's Ramblings

[Bushman5]

My SAR call-sign is River 8, and I have a thick bladed knife.

It gets worse; it’s a Busse – I use it, and I like it.

There, I said it.

Imagine my surprise to learn what an ignorant, misguided dweeb that makes me .

My EDC includes a SAK, lock blade and a Leatherman. In the backcountry I also lug
around a folding saw. All are used in their own way.

Having spent a fair bit of time battering around the brush, and broken a few blades
along the way, I guess I’ll have to accept my using a ‘sharpened crowbar' simply reflects
my inexperience. Drat.

While its not ‘bush craft’ it saddens me to admit that there have been times I’ve pulled
the ridiculous knife from its sheath, nestled my index finger in the stupid choil and shaved
pichwood curls, whittled pegs to pin up a hasty tarp shelter, or anchor edge protection
for a ropes rescue scene (hammering them in with the flat of the blade )… Gak.

I could go on, but my lower lip is beginning to quiver, and its getting difficult to see
through the misty-eyed tears of shame.

Please forgive me; I need help .

Sadly,
8

+1 :thumbup:

 

[sodak]

Well if you start off your posts by telling how you are leaving certain equipment behind before you ever go "into the middle of nowhere", you are limiting your options already.

When I head into the middle of nowhere, I go prepared. I am usually in a boat or vehicle so I may have more options and equipment than most. I carry more than one knife, thin and thick. I match them to the task at hand. Maybe when I become an "expert" I will learn to use only one knife !!

I never said that I was leaving certain equipment behind. I don't, however, carry an assortment of axes and things like that. I've had thinner knives fail on me in very surprising ways, doing chores that they should have easily been able to handle. I still carry them, but also now carry a stronger knife that I know can handle the tougher tasks. My thicker knives also cut quite well.

I agree with more than one knife and matching the knife to the job. I don't know if sodak's comment about 'self appointed experts' was aimed at you or not, but mine wasn't, rather it's aimed at people telling other people that they are a dumb-ass because they carry this or that, and if they were smart they would carry this.

Coyote made a good point about how he works well with one kind of knife and his buddy with a different type.

We all have different likes and needs and we have to be less critical of others who think differently.

Doc (stepping down from his soap box).

Good points Doc!

 

[murderedsongbird]

Of course, thin blades will be better at delicate articulate tasks... Mora type blades are excelent and can be used in a variety of tasks in the hands of an experienced user.

Thick blades offer added strength for prying and the more "bull in a china shop" uses that folks seem to be putting their knives through these days. Lets face it.... times have changed. Most people do not use their knives on a daily basis and most have multiple knives for different tasks. Kevin is right to a point, I believe. He uses his knife way more than the average joe... he knows techniques that can make a 4" mora do just about anything... In this day and age he is above average. Go back in time a little (or just check out cultures still immersed in daily survival skills) and you'll see that he is probably at par with the average user. (no offence, Kevin.... I'm speculating) They don't have the luxury of picking out the knife they're gonna use for today's hike. Usually you'd see a small thin knife and an axe or machete (depending on location) there is no in between.

Today we're not faced with having to carry our "one" knife everyday, 365.... We have more choices, better packs, better belts(lol)... etc... Lugging a Busse Fusion Battle Mistress for a weekend trip doesn't inflict as much damage as it would have for Nessmuk. (I bet there were times when Nessuk would have given his left chestnut for a FBM!)

Everything we do (especially North Americans) we seem to do "balls out" with as much force in as little time as possible. That's where the thick knives come into play. Are they necessary? No.... but they are the reality.

I can hack out a pretty good camp site in short time with a "thicky" that would take me all afternoon with a "thinny".... would it be of equal quality in craftsmanship?.... hell no! But it'd be done QUICK so I could get to scouting for wild edibles and animal tracks.

Rick

When I make a knife, I like starting with 1/4" stock. I hand forge and am big on distal tapers so it doesn't mean the spine will be 1/4" but it still has some heft to it most times.....

Gratuitous pic..... the "Bushpig".... approx 5/32 at thickest...

magnussen,
do you have a page with your work? if not, then when? i really like the look of your blades.

 

[Elen]

I think I have rather practical opinion on the matter.

It's an undeniable fact that in history, there have been "knife blades" that were both widely used and thick. Khukuris, for example. And when we go far enough back in time, all manner of primitive rocks and pieces of flint and obsidian, and even bone and wood, were used to make tools that did the job of a knife, and these had thicknesses that ranged everywhere between the thinnest modern folder blades and thicker than thickest modern khukuries actually intended for use. And they did the job - perhaps not ergonomically, perhaps not with fantastic performance, perhaps not too safely, but still, they did the job. So, thick knives are not useless as knives - that has been proven. And thickness does have a benefit - strength, there's no denying that.

I like both thick and thin knives, depending on the intended purpose of the particular knife. I can manage small tasks with a thick knife, if the grind is good - but I'll rather carry a small knife for the small stuff. I don't want the small knife too thin, either - get it thin enough, and woodworking will start to get difficult with the blade flexing or outright breaking in some tasks. In small work, though, the really thick knives become very bothersome to use - not entirely useless, but very much inferior. Similarly, if I'm going to chop something for some reason, I prefer a thicker knife to put some weight into it.

Thick, thin, I don't take it all that passionately, as long as the knife design is otherwise good and practical. The things I don't tolerate are the design features that have no meaningful benefits to them. Thickness has the benefit of added strength, which in some rare cases can be extremely valuable, but what benefit does something like a choil on a small to medium sized blade bring, except a tacticool look? That's the kind of stuff I really hate.

 

[omniviking]

Part of the trend toward thicker blades is the result of more boutique knife builders entering the market. One easy way to distinguish one's wares from the Moras and machetes is to use thicker stock. After all, thicker is stronger, right?

The fashion is the insistence on making knives "bulletproof". How many times has someone on the forum said something like, "Would you trust your life to a $10 knife?" Who's life is worth a $10? Framed this way, the heat is on to produce thicker, more durable blades. Of course, it's a false premise. My life is of course worth more than the $10, at least to me. However, I put my life's worth at even higher than the fanciest Busse, too. With this realization, that argument is exposed for the absurdity it is, since if one accepts the premise, there's no ceiling on what one should spend.

There is a place for thick blades. If one needs lateral stiffness or high weight with a relatively narrow blade. However, my needs don't coincide with those. Applications for laterally stiff tools are better served by tools other than knives. And when I need a heavy blade, I find I don't also need the blade to be narrow.

Some people swear by moras, think they can still be had in 10 dollar neighborhood. Pat

 

[Dannyboy Leather]

Dannyboy- I love that slightly convex clip! I'd do a bit different on the handle if I warn't doing a period piece. Do you have more history on that style? I'm looking at my longknife design and trying to get some more historical oomph behind it. All I really know is it's a lightened long leuku that works.

Koyote, That particular knife is an exact copy of one found in a museum in Indiana of an old English butcher. Though the knife has an 8" blade, 5" walnut handle, it is so light and well-balanced that I have no difficulty using it as a paring knife. Peeling potatoes, so forth, is a breeze. Needless to say, the blade does not have a grind - true to the originals (no power equipment was used in its making), but was filed to finish after the forging process. The blade has a convexed profile to it...which is typical for the flat filed finish.

I highly recommend (if you don't already have it) a respected and authoritative book on knives that were used in the early American settlements, colonies, and on the frontier. The books is; "The Knife In Homespun America, by Madison Grant." This book is a great source for accurate information and photos. As a historical re-enactor, this is one of my favorite resource books when documenting my cutlery.
http://store.scurlockpublishing.com/theknifeinhomespunamericabymadisongrant.aspx

 

[CaptInsano]

How do we come to a consensus? Is it even possible to come to a consensus or do we just agree to disagree? While I don't know if a single thickness is the perfect thickness, I know it is possible to be too thin and it is definitely possible to be too thick.

Your thoughts?

Do we even need a consenus?

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Gratuitous pic..... the "Bushpig".... approx 5/32 at thickest...

Rick, I forgot to mention - that is one awesome looking blade!

Doc

 

[attej]

I myself like a puukko and a small hatchet combo. I've found them to be the most usefull and versatile tools in the woods for me... even though I rarely even need the hatchet. If I build a fire I usually just gather some wood from the ground and snap some dry branches, and for overnight stay I don't build a natural shelter... don't see the point in cutting down living trees when I can sleep under a tarp or in a tent. But anyway, a hatchet is a good piece of equipment for heavier cutting and for emergencies.

That said, I do sometimes carry a Ranger Puukko. It has a pretty thick blade, certainly enough to be used for batoning etc. The ranger puukko can be used for everything that needs to be done while camping, hiking or in a survival situation, but normally I do like to carve stuff out of wood (spoons, butter knives and whatever) while sitting beside a fire and for that I need to carry a puukko anyway. Also, for small and quick tasks I think a small knife with a handy sheath is a convenient choice.

My SAR call-sign is River 8, and I have a thick bladed knife.

It gets worse; it’s a Busse – I use it, and I like it.

There, I said it.

Imagine my surprise to learn what an ignorant, misguided dweeb that makes me .

My EDC includes a SAK, lock blade and a Leatherman. In the backcountry I also lug
around a folding saw. All are used in their own way.

Having spent a fair bit of time battering around the brush, and broken a few blades
along the way, I guess I’ll have to accept my using a ‘sharpened crowbar' simply reflects
my inexperience. Drat.

While its not ‘bush craft’ it saddens me to admit that there have been times I’ve pulled
the ridiculous knife from its sheath, nestled my index finger in the stupid choil and shaved
pichwood curls, whittled pegs to pin up a hasty tarp shelter, or anchor edge protection
for a ropes rescue scene (hammering them in with the flat of the blade )… Gak.

I could go on, but my lower lip is beginning to quiver, and its getting difficult to see
through the misty-eyed tears of shame.

Please forgive me; I need help .

Sadly,
8

Heh, even though our blade of choice is different, I have to say that's right on the point! Most of us have enough blades that we know what we want, and at the end of the day, we're all gonna use a knife that fits the hand so to speak. For this sorta thread, I think it's important to tell people why you've chosen the knife you use, not so much tell why the knife someone else has chosen is the wrong one.

 

[mapper66]

Rick, I forgot to mention - that is one awesome looking blade!

Doc

+1, I want one. :thumbup:

 

[messer454]

Lots of good thoughts here. My outdoor excursions are primarily hunting or fishing. In Ohio it is hard to get very far from a paved road and help especially if you told someone where you are. A shelter building knife is not something I carry, I carry a Gerber saw. I really don't want the weight of a chopper "just in case." Even in all my times in Boy Scouts we never split wood and I have only batoned to see how it was done. Went all the way to Philmont and never needed more than a folder/SAK sized knife.

Maybe one's background has something to do with it. If I lived/played farther from help I might have different opinions. I have some thick knives (Scrapper 6) that I keep in the vehicles for emergencies but I really like thin knives. But it is a six inch large knife. What I can't understand are the short thick fixed blade knives. They can't really chop and I bet you could baton a Dumpster Mutt and a Ratmandu forever and not hurt either so why the thickness of the DM? I was happy when Scrapyard made the Combat Grade Yardkeeper. The LE Yardkeeper although loved by many was not useful as a hunting/food prep knife to me because it was too thick. For the life of me I don't understand the facination for the Fat Busse Game Wardens, they are a very thick 3-3 1/2" knife that sells like hotcakes.

To me length of blade makes a difference. If it is a small edc or hunting knife I like it 3/16 or less and full flat ground or Scandi. (On that topic also I don't know where all these guys are EDC a fixed blade anyway. In Ohio unless it is in plain view it is illegal. If its in plain view it would probably still be illegal in my neck of the woods.) If it is a chopper, the rules change. JMHO

 

[stanley_white]

Several thoughts...

1. I think the perceived need for ultra thick knives is due to the Global War on Terrorism. Yes that is right -- blame Bin Ladin.

Since the GWOT began the military, an in turn companies that market gear i.e. knives to the military, have been busier then ever supporting the troops on a scale unprecendented since World War II. As more military personnel use their knives for "combat" tasks such as prying etc the popularity and advertisements for the sharpened pry bar knife will continue to be proliferated and the demand for said knives goes up because people think "If it's good enough for the troops it should be good enough for me" or "I want the SuperSecretUnitNinjaKnife" etc.

2. Regarding the comments Koyote main re the 18 year old's opinion on knives...

Since we live in the supposedly civilized world and the majority of us are not using knives to survive with on a daily basis do you think the realization of what works and what doesn't in the woods is being lost on U.S. Citizens as a whole?

Would an 18 year old 150 years ago had the same opinions about how knives should be built? I doubt it -- because he would have grow up on a farm or in the woods or on the prairie and would know what works and what doesn't.

To me the two societal influences of "If military guys use it then it must be good enough for me" as well as the "All I know about knives is what I've seen in movies" are having a negative impact on knife culture and marketing.

Additionally...

Look at the RAT line of knives. Designed / made buy a guy who regularly goes into the jungle. Their aren't sharpened pry bars.

How about the 5/32" Ka-Bar? Think of that knife, the design / thickness, and the time it was manufactured. I bet society as a whole knew a heck of a bunch more about knife design then having been only one or maybe two generations removed from the woods then they do now.

 

[Ebbtide]

Thick knives have been in vogue since way before UBL.
See my comment about Webster Marble.

Some would rather have something that can't be broken, instead of taking time to care for their gear and learning how to use it properly and carefully.

The Ugly Stick fishing rod comes to mind.

 

[Stubai]

One things for sure: everybody has their take on this issue. Can you imagine strapping a 15 inch kuk on your belt and heading into a metro area? Hardly. A simple slip-joint or SAK not only makes more sense, but is vastly easier to carry and hide.

I read an article that proposed that the prototype of Jim Bowie's blade was merely an elongated kitchen knife with a slightly greater than 1/8 thick steel carbon blade. It is safe to say: many of the frontier knives were in fact kitchen utilty blades. Thicker knives were for butchering that required the weight and heft for splitting bones and gristle. Axes were used when utilmate power was needed in felling larger trees etc.

For all this chat, I am reminded of the time I witnessed a small Bolivian man easily cut down a 14 inch hardwood tree with his humble 18 inch machete. His technique was amazingly efficient, and the bastard file elevated his thin edged tool to a sabre of magnum proportions.































Thick knives are probably just purchased because they have that sex appeal that harkens back to another youthful day, less for their supposed prowess in the field.

 

[monkeybutt]

I am impressed with this thread and it is obvious to me that there are a lot of good minds floating around this forum.

Someone mentioned that "times have changed" with regards to the way we use cutlery. The evidence (at least in my neck of the woods) shows this to be true...generally speaking. Though, planet earth has not changed its materials and matter in which we cut, chop, and carve. The difference is; we have a tendency to put more emphasis (in this culture) on the entertainment value of our cutlery than we do on the efficiency of our cutlery. Others have made this point in this thread better than I. I am one who *needs* to use his knives daily on the cattle ranch. I am not entertained by the knives I use, I simply need them to work fast and efficiently. I love convex-ground knives very much, but they have no place in the butcher shop. I love the flat-ground knives in the butcher shop very much, but I find the convex and Scandinavian ground knives perform better on wood working. I choose the best grind and geometry (Scott makes some excellent points) for the task given. We don't chop with our knives in my world (God invented the axe, saw, and machete, too) so I have almost no reason to ever own or need a thick bladed knife.

Inexperienced outdoor knife users always seem to be overly concerned with the durability of their knives. As a mechanical engineer (retired), I have dealt with durability issues or concerns all my life. If someone understands little of mechanical science, they want to replace their lack of science with "big and thick"..."just in case." Well, in the real world, that just doesn't work. And, as a pilot, that just doesn't fly either (pun intended).

The knife pictured has a forged blade made from a pre-Civil War farm implement. The blade starts out at 1/8" thick in front of the handle and tapers down the length of the 8" spine. Needless to say, the blade is semi-flexible. This blade has been flexed dozens of times at almost 90-degrees and never failed to return to straight. I am confident that no normal human could break this thin, durable blade. Yet, the blade is plenty stiff for control, heavy and long enough for chopping (it will out-chop many heavier blades because of its machete like speed), and holds an edge that would please any outdoors person or butcher. This light weight knife represents good science and craftsmanship in my opinion. Nothing superfluous here.

Well said. Good information of how various grinds suit different kinds of work. To a neophyte, like myself, a knife would seem a simple enough tool having a handle and a sharpened edge or two. And in a pinch any sharp edge 'knife' is better than none. However matching the technical aspects of a blade to the job and its environment would greatly increase its efficiency. As a BF geek I find this functional aspect fascinating. While it is difficult to discount or purge the influence of aesthetics, style or vogue - I like my stuff to look good to me and even 'simple' may be popular and not necessarily more efficient, I will choose to place 'function' on high priority.
With regard to thick or thin, what I've learned so far is I'll opt for just thick enough to not break or deform in my intended use w/ just a bit more robustness for a bit of 'stupid' factor. How do I know? I'll test my stuff at home where I won't be stuck if I need the tool. Even my 3/32" blades have been holding up great so far. In terms of cutting I agree w/ those who say grind is most important, but for slicing, all things being equal a thinner blade should be more efficient.

 

[udtjim]

I have a 8 inch Butcher knife that my wife's grandpa made about 105 years ago from good carbon steel. It was about the only knife he had and needed. He had to skin and cut his own meat, cut veggies to can and every other job on the farm. That knife still works great and is the only knife I would ever need. He cut his wood with a saw and an ax and pried with a bar.

We are now spoiled rotten and loving every minute of it. Everyone here will use what works best for them. More power to them. It would be a sad and boring world if we all liked and used the same thing. The old mountain men learned to use what they had and it was there skill, not their tools that got them through life. That skill is probably lacking these days when money will buy the answer to every whim and wish.

 

[Gossman Knives]

Some would rather have something that can't be broken, instead of taking time to care for their gear and learning how to use it properly and carefully.

Exactly! :thumbup::thumbup:
Scott

 

[Dannyboy Leather]

I almost never carry a blade over 4-1/2" in my outdoor adventures. And, only actually carry the 7" - 8" blades when attending living history events as a historical reenactor. The 8" butcher (pictured with muzzleloader) will sometimes go with us in the camp box because it is such a great camp kitchen knife. It will carve large chunks of meat as well as anything in the butcher shop, and handle vegetables with equal efficiency.

Not long ago, I spent almost an entire summer with a thin blade (testing it for a knifemaker) while backpacking several hundred miles on the PCT. The 3/32" tapered spine kept the 4-1/2" blade very light, yet strong enough to easily accomplish any and all camp needs. It turned out to be a great addition to my little SAK.

Though I have rarely seen a need for a fixed-bladed knife (especially a thick one) on a *LONG* or thru backpacking trail, this light weight knife (designed to be a light survival knife) was not even noticed on my body or in the pack.

Thin=light=always with you. Note the file on the spine below. I later used just the knife to construct a primitive flat bow complete with arrows (sinew string). The spine file did an excellent job of filing in the nocks, scraping the arrow shafts, etc. The thinness of this knife was a bonus in bow and arrow construction, gathering materials/plants for tools and food. Light, thin blades (if they have a good handle) won't fatique your hand while working for hours either (Scandinavian knives usually reflect these characteristics). Thick blades create too many limitations in the outdoors (at least for my taste) unless supplemented with a good pocket knife.

 

[Bushman5]

Lots of good thoughts here. My outdoor excursions are primarily hunting or fishing. In Ohio it is hard to get very far from a paved road and help especially if you told someone where you are. A shelter building knife is not something I carry, I carry a Gerber saw. I really don't want the weight of a chopper "just in case." Even in all my times in Boy Scouts we never split wood and I have only batoned to see how it was done. Went all the way to Philmont and never needed more than a folder/SAK sized knife.

Maybe one's background has something to do with it. If I lived/played farther from help I might have different opinions. I have some thick knives (Scrapper 6) that I keep in the vehicles for emergencies but I really like thin knives. But it is a six inch large knife. What I can't understand are the short thick fixed blade knives. They can't really chop and I bet you could baton a Dumpster Mutt and a Ratmandu forever and not hurt either so why the thickness of the DM? I was happy when Scrapyard made the Combat Grade Yardkeeper. The LE Yardkeeper although loved by many was not useful as a hunting/food prep knife to me because it was too thick. For the life of me I don't understand the facination for the Fat Busse Game Wardens, they are a very thick 3-3 1/2" knife that sells like hotcakes.

To me length of blade makes a difference. If it is a small edc or hunting knife I like it 3/16 or less and full flat ground or Scandi. (On that topic also I don't know where all these guys are EDC a fixed blade anyway. In Ohio unless it is in plain view it is illegal. If its in plain view it would probably still be illegal in my neck of the woods.) If it is a chopper, the rules change. JMHO

some of us EDC a fixed blade because we are allowed to. The laws vary form ara to area, county to county, province to province, city/town to city/town.

I EDC a fixed blade every day, as well several folders and several tiny blades (bark rivers). Use them all, every day for various tasks.

as for the chopper vs small knife issue, consider this:

your tired, your hands are cold /numb, you have been caught in a sudden wicked weatehr change. You need fire and shelter NOW!. Now do you want to spend a few hours whittling away with a small knife, or a few minutes with with a big thick chopper to gatehr your shelter poles, brush, firewood etc etc etc?

I participated in a exercise (with a team & medic close by observing) where several of us immersed ourselves into an icy stream for 45 minutes. We then attempted several tasks, one happened to be trying to open a small pocketknife. Niether of us were able to. We then attempted to make a fire and a wooden shelter with a small pocketknife and a ample supply of nearby peckerpoles and limbs on trees. Neither of us could cut the thin saplings down, jim sustained a bad cut when his hands slipped onto the blade of the small knife (he could'nt feel his hands, still numb).

We then switched to the choppers (in this case a Kabar Khukuri and a CS heavy machete). Jim, depsite numb hands unmovable fingers was able to drop three saplings and lash them togheter crudely with a piece of jute. I was able to drop poles and lash them together, both shelters were covered with our tarps. The firewood was chopped , enought o get the fire going and a esbit tab and lighter lit it up.

It took us minutes to drop the poles, instead of hours (under the conditions) of trying to use a dinky knife drop them .

something to consider , what knife can you use under duress, when you cant feel your hands (obviously it should never get to that point, but it was an exercise in motor control)

i'll take the big oversize blade chopper anyday.


-----------------

DANNYBOY "Thin=light=always with you"

i disagree, my choppers are always with me, i dont find them heavy (one is 2 lbs) even after a long slog with a loaded backpack.. I use a (crude) Baldric to carry them. Very Comfortable, always with me.

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Maybe a summation is in order,

For the small, thin-blade fans, I'm a dumb-ass because I like, carry, and use big choppers.

For the big, thick chopper fans, I'm a dumb-ass because I like, carry, and use small, thin-blade knives.

So, I guess that begs the question, "Are there any other options?"

Doc