Bad Paypal 1099

NOT A SINGLE PERSON I consider a friend on BF is trying to evade taxes on income of any kind...enough of that talk!....but I have found that EVERY DADGUM ONE of my friends thinks it's wrong to pay tax on a transaction-- that resulted in a net loss-- as if it were pure 100% income!

And from what I understand, the IRS, nor the 3rd party vendors gives a rat's-ass about the differentiation thereof!

They're just gonna cast a wide net and call any ingress of loot <above the 600 limit> into your account as INCOME...this is unadulterated Bovine Scatology! :poop:

The Colonists rebelled against draconian edicts such as this! :mad:
 
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I'm active at an online site, Humble Dollar, which is a great resource for all things investment and financial. Coincidentally, one of the contributors, a CPA, posted an article yesterday which illuminates this subject. I asked some questions, specifically as to our knife hobby, and he was kind enough to give detailed answers with his take on all this.

If you're interested you can find it here: https://humbledollar.com/2022/02/collecting-taxes/

Andrew
 
I copied this from an internet discussion. It sounds easy, but I am no tax expert, as I always pay to have them filed properly:

“If you are "only" selling your own used personal items, you won't owe any taxes, and you don't have to fill out Schedule C (actually for personal items it would be Schedule D), you can just include them as "Other Income" on form 1040, to satisfy the reporting requirements, regardless of whether you get a 1099K or not.



Note that while you won't show any profit and not owe any taxes, you also can not claim a loss against other income.



Just the basic personal home version of Turbo Tax will handle this, and there is even information on their website of how to do this for ebay sales of used items.”
This is exactly what my CPA said. You don't pay income tax reselling a used personal item you sold at a loss. But you can't take anything you lost as a "loss" against your tax liability, it's just net zero. Wash your hands of it and walk away.

Everybody has been getting worked up and going on about having to file a schedule C but you're not running a business nor making money with a hobby. You're not trying to deduct expenses to run your knife hobby. You're just trying to nullify the income being shown on the 1099 which should not be difficult because you paid more for it than you're selling it for. Cut and dry: personal used item, sold for less than you paid.
 
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This is exactly what my CPA said. You don't pay income tax reselling a used personal item you sold at a loss. But you can't take anything you lost as a "loss" against your tax liability, it's just net zero. Wash your hands of it and walk away.

Everybody has been getting worked up and going on about having to file a schedule C but you're not running a business nor making money with a hobby. You're not trying to deduct expenses to run your knife hobby. You're just trying to nullify the income being shown on the 1099 which should not be difficult because you paid more for it than you're selling it for. Cut and dry: personal used item, sold for less than you paid.
Ok, so you have to enter the 1099 amount somewhere (such as "other income" like stonesell said), but where do you enter the original cost to nullify the 1099 amount, so that you don't get taxed on it?
 
Ok, so you have to enter the 1099 amount somewhere (such as "other income" like stonesell said), but where do you enter the original cost to nullify the 1099 amount, so that you don't get taxed on it?
I'm sorry I don't know, it's on the Schedule D according to my CPA. She said something about a cost basis.
 
I'm sorry I don't know, it's on the Schedule D according to my CPA. She said something about a cost basis.
Will look into that. Wouldn't have thought this would qualify as capital gains/losses, but who knows. If it's easier than doing Schedule C, and I can get the software to go there instead, all for it.
 
Will look into that. Wouldn't have thought this would qualify as capital gains/losses, but who knows. If it's easier than doing Schedule C, and I can get the software to go there instead, all for it.
There is supposed to be a provision specially for the sale of used personal items. I'll have to find out exactly. I brought it up and she didn't blink. Just said, "No biggie, you're selling personal property at a loss. You don't pay income tax on that because you selling an item you already paid for." (I'm sure she was assuming at a loss of course.) She also said that so many people are going to improperly file as a business or just eat the 1099 and pay their income tax rate on that "additional income" ultimately paying unnecessary taxes. And that the IRS will be like, "Thank you very much, uninformed tax payer"

I have a feeling that TurboTax and software packages like that are going to be more savvy to this particular situation as it is going to be a major issue for a lot of people next year. I can confidently say I have spoken to at least 10 people about this. Not knife people either; other hobbyists. Audio people, gamers, doll collectors, car people, or just people selling their old crap all saying the same thing that 20+ pages of the this thread discussed. My take away is that if one little nobody like me had that discussion with that many people, then A LOT of other people are too. There are going to be millions of people affected by this. The IRS is going to be choking on this mess when people get surprise 1099's and try to navigate this next year: phone calls, contested fee/penalty assessments, amended returns, etc...

Also terrible, so many things that could have been sold and reused are going to go in the landfill because people are terrified to get a 1099. On reddit knife_swap people were basically posting that if you get a 1099 like this that you are going to get audited or owe big. IRS be comin' for ya! 🙄 With that soft of info getting put out there it's no wonder...
 
Free tax advice is woirth every penny you pay for it.

Having said that, it is expressly stated in the Internal Revenue Code that the burden of proving a loss on any "sale of property" is solely on the taxpayer.

The tax is imposed by statute on "income from whatever source derived,"

26 U.S. Code § 64 - Ordinary income defined

For purposes of this subtitle, the term “ordinary income” includes any gain from the sale or exchange of property which is neither a capital asset nor property described in section 1231(b).

Sold goods aren't taxable as income IF you are selling a used personal item for less than the original value. If you sell it for more than the original cost, you have a taxable gain on which income taxes are due as long term or short term capital gains, depending on how long yiur held it between axcquisition and sale.


If you receive a bill from the IRS (and some bills they insist are not really "bills," but just "suggestions"), the computers will assume, even against all the undoubted facts, that everything that the bill states is true even when the bill internally ontradicts itself, and the offical IRS records,, And, again, the bill may be accurate. Even a blind swuirrel, and all that.

My saga. IRS computers and software, dating from the Nixon Administration, lose data regularly, incorrecly apply the law (such as by using the wrong tax rate for a given category of income), and cannot consistenty do accurate arithmatic. The employees know this and Congress klnows this, but the employees have no ability to control the computers, due to budget slashes, mostly under Obama, Congress refuses to increase their funding, cut one-third plus twelve years of inflation, becasue they think it would be unpopular. Thsi explans why IRS is behind by monre than a year in actyually procesing returns, and six million returns behind in sedning out refunds,. Dig it, yoiu may get a refund and be told years later ,as we were, that you owe much more than the refund already sent to you. THis could be accurate or due to some computer fanticised underreporting of income or overreporting of deductions.. Noone is left to check the aritmatic, tax rate calculations, or notice internally inconsistent claims IN THE SAME BILL: "You reported 0. "You should have reported a total of 43K, or 31K, or 29K,or 14K, or 1200 PLUS penalties and interest - all for the same year." That $1200 buienss REALLY made me crazy. We literally never made that little.


From my experience over a year, If you are reasonably polite, IRS personnel, beat uo all day, every day, by angry taxpayers will try to help. I talked to many front-line types, and a couple of "Directors." One of the latter got me to the Deputy Commisioner in chrge of collections, the civil service head of the IRS, who sees Predients come and go. This process resulted in five letters stating that we owed no tax. But the computer silll ground out ever-more-threatening notices. Your records are not the data that the computers recognize as reality. Indeed, IRS has no no consolidated data base. In a person, this is "psychosis." namely "schizophrenia.." At the IRS, this is the World that IRS employee must endure, and it has gone on for years and yearswith no hope of relief from them or taxpayers..

Unless some employee simply ignores the rules and pushes the right buttons to make a bill go away, which on of them did for us once ("Don't do anythoing. I'll take care of it.")., you likely will face a stressful choice. (I bless the name of my unknown friend. I recall nothing, nothing that would help identify him. Nothing!)

Choice One. (A) Pay what believe you do not owe and give up OR (B) pay and go the regular U.S. District Court - bery formal nd not happy to see lay people, who lagely donlt know the rules.. Not a big deal for me, but I was once a lawyer admitted to all the federal courts. No biggie even in my dotage.

Choice Two is somewhat less formal, less complicated, but less "just," to use a word. You can elect not pay and go the the IRS very own court, the U.S. Tax Court, where you get the fish eye as a presumed "Tax Protestor" and no jury but also get expedited proceedings, perhap even an informal arbitration, and the second team of U.S. lawyers. Their prejudice is understandable: they get the bulk of the aluminum foil hat crowd and delibereate tax evaders. Typical argyument for not reporting income or payinjg taxes: "I forgot." [But why are you suing. Forgetting does not satisfy tax debt.] "Ohio is not a state so none of my income is taxable by the U.S. Government." "I am a soverign individual, so no government can tax me," "There is gold fringe on the U.S. flag, so I don't have to pay U,S, Income Tax." "Tax is only due on income earned in a foreign country." " God told me I do not owe any tax." "My income was all in paper money that is unconstitutional so I do not owe taxes." Up to you, but all such arguments are guaranteed losers and make money only for thsoe selling books and "courses" urguing you to make such argumensts. A couple of them took their own advice and got to vacation in Hotel Fed.

I, foolishly, went to U.S. Tax Court. I wish I had not. A jury trial would have been great fun. But, a year later when I finally got a pretrial hearing, the USTC judge seemed rather PO'd,at the IRS lawyer in view of the five letters from her client saying we owned nothing AND the IRS computer notice stating that we had overreported income and overpaid taxes in the same year they said we had reported no income. Besides, I dressed up nicely for the frist time in years, did not pound the table, had my US. Supreme Court admission certficate in hand and "spoke legal," The IRS lawyer also seems nervious. Totally ignoiring the other side's formal "discovery" can start to look likie a big blunder when a non-nut shows up with the Federal Rules in hand talkng about contempt and "sanctions" [$$$].

After the IRS lawyer agreed IRS would go away, basically at the Court's demand ( "Counsel, we have no time for this nonsense" said the Senior Judge and former Chief Judge of the Tax Court.) , the IRS computer sent us another tiny refund. :rolleyes: The IRS begged me not so send it back. "The paperwork." "The search for someone to blame." "Please keep it." The check is taped to my computer. Too bad for IRS the Tax Court and IRS lawyer assumed I was some sort of nut case, or it could have been over eleven months earlier without the Judge having reason to recall how screwed up they are at IRS.

Few without experience "at the bar" would want to do what I did, but this was my experience for what it's worth. The amount at stake ranged from tens of thousands to about $500, depending on which totally fictional calculation was accepted. Oh, and after I sued, the IRS lawyer came up with that sixth imaginary figure of claimed underreporting -- AFTER the erroneous notice that we were due a refund of about $750 due to overreporting of income. (Their computer had lost a payment ["didistribution"]) from my 401K company retirement plan. They got the 1099R, I got the 1099R. I reported the amount on our 1040. They lost it. See, just too screwed up to be a conspiracy, unless it's by Congress.
 
Telephoning the IRS. One chance in five to get through. Automatically disconnected if you wait for four hours ("You have excceded you time in queue." [click]) (Not a masochist, I hope, but curious about what would happen if I waited.) When you reach someone, do be calm, clear, and polite. Remember thay have been called every imaginbale thing that's not nice.

Writing to the IRS. They do not have a single file or, despite a legal requirement, a single person in charge of your file. You may fairly wonder if they can do anything right. But, eventually, they did send the letters that made the IRS lawyer look like SHE was the nut case. Every letter back was from a differnt person, usually at a different office, each telling you they need three, six, nine more moiths to reply to your letter, with no reference to which letter they are addresing. Such letters continued to arrive months after the IRS had surrendered. Perhaps somwhere some poor soul is still investigating one or more of my letters. See, I replied promptly to every communication IRS sent: asking, for example, "How can we have underreported by five contradictory amounts, with a cliam that we reported nothing which is contradiced by your paper record and the bill itself? Whatever the total that we could owe, it is a single total, not five different totals. Our 1040 total is, in fact, the total in your paper records (copy enclosed), if not in your computer bills, with there contradictory totals. Please explain." And no, I do not tear wings off flies.

IRS Tax Assistance Office. In most big ciies is an offiice where you can meet with a service rep who, from my experience, will really try to help and, in my case, really did help. They are not tax lawyers and do not give tax advice per se, but they can print out all of your tax documents that you filed or that payers to you filed with IRS (1099 Div, 1099R W-2). These come from several database which they can accesss. So you can cite the IRS records if they support your position. I made an appointment with such an office BEFORE successfully reaching the IRS "Automated Underreporteding Center (the deepest pit of Hell) in Andover, Mass. I was stressed and confused, wondering if I was simply Joe Bidenesque and "could not understand." I arrived on time and found that the IRS computer scheduled for twelve service reps, although they had only three - one taxpayer an hour x 12 , but only enough reps to fill three offices. Warned, I had a book. The "taxpayers" were almost all very, and loudly, angry. Several got tired of waiting and left. screaming. One broke the glass out of the door by slamming it. Yet, the rep who called my name five hours late was notably polite, if exhausted, and I left reassured by her explaining that I could not understand the bill, with its inconsistencies and columns of blanks, adding up to numbers, because " God himself could not uinderstand this stuff, honey. Looks like you did everything right. Don't tell anyone I said that." Just hearing that lifted a huge load and got me back "on my feet." I really could add and subtract, I note that I had figured out that none of my problems were her fault and had heard her trying for five hours to help others, moany of who cursed, swore, and screamed at the top of their lung, with no apparent effort to listen to anything that she said. She was a victim too. A punching bag for the frustrated, willing tio be an ally if you only let her be that, That became my point-of-view in dealing with all other IRS people, and it worked for me and for a logical outcome. I excepted the politcally-appointed, arrogant, IRS lawyer from the richest city in Ohio. Her I would have gladly crushed like a bug, but she gave up PDQ when the Judge snarled. She made zero effort to find out what the case was about and denied everything I put in my court complaint, l denying that she knew a single thing that the IRS had said in their communications. which she was prohibited by law from doing. She was required tio make a reasonable effort, includign by reviewing IRS records, to see if what I wrote, quoting the IRS notices, was true, She did nothing to check my story. Just a lazy slug. Now she's gone with the change of administration. Contrast the Assiatance Offcie with the "Appeals Office" that, likely due to stafifing issues. did nothing that it was legally required to do -- nothing period.

Now, if you failed to report income for any reason, the outcome will differ frem the above, Plus, I'm a packrat and have every tax record going back to 1983.

Enough and more than enough, with unknown applicability. Best of luck.
 
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There is supposed to be a provision specially for the sale of used personal items. I'll have to find out exactly. I brought it up and she didn't blink. Just said, "No biggie, you're selling personal property at a loss. You don't pay income tax on that because you selling an item you already paid for." (I'm sure she was assuming at a loss of course.) She also said that so many people are going to improperly file as a business or just eat the 1099 and pay their income tax rate on that "additional income" ultimately paying unnecessary taxes. And that the IRS will be like, "Thank you very much, uninformed tax payer"

I have a feeling that TurboTax and software packages like that are going to be more savvy to this particular situation as it is going to be a major issue for a lot of people next year. I can confidently say I have spoken to at least 10 people about this. Not knife people either; other hobbyists. Audio people, gamers, doll collectors, car people, or just people selling their old crap all saying the same thing that 20+ pages of the this thread discussed. My take away is that if one little nobody like me had that discussion with that many people, then A LOT of other people are too. There are going to be millions of people affected by this. The IRS is going to be choking on this mess when people get surprise 1099's and try to navigate this next year: phone calls, contested fee/penalty assessments, amended returns, etc...

Also terrible, so many things that could have been sold and reused are going to go in the landfill because people are terrified to get a 1099. On reddit knife_swap people were basically posting that if you get a 1099 like this that you are going to get audited or owe big. IRS be comin' for ya! 🙄 With that soft of info getting put out there it's no wonder...
Wondering if so far, since it's been a state thing, and only a handful of states at that, that there is less scrutiny and as long as you're accounting for the 1099 somehow, even if technically wrong, they're letting it slide. But come next year when it becomes Federal, that may change. But hopefully along with it will come better guidance, and tax software will handle it better.
 
There is supposed to be a provision specially for the sale of used personal items. I'll have to find out exactly. I brought it up and she didn't blink. Just said, "No biggie, you're selling personal property at a loss. You don't pay income tax on that because you selling an item you already paid for." (I'm sure she was assuming at a loss of course.) She also said that so many people are going to improperly file as a business or just eat the 1099 and pay their income tax rate on that "additional income" ultimately paying unnecessary taxes. And that the IRS will be like, "Thank you very much, uninformed tax payer"

I have a feeling that TurboTax and software packages like that are going to be more savvy to this particular situation as it is going to be a major issue for a lot of people next year. I can confidently say I have spoken to at least 10 people about this. Not knife people either; other hobbyists. Audio people, gamers, doll collectors, car people, or just people selling their old crap all saying the same thing that 20+ pages of the this thread discussed. My take away is that if one little nobody like me had that discussion with that many people, then A LOT of other people are too. There are going to be millions of people affected by this. The IRS is going to be choking on this mess when people get surprise 1099's and try to navigate this next year: phone calls, contested fee/penalty assessments, amended returns, etc...

Also terrible, so many things that could have been sold and reused are going to go in the landfill because people are terrified to get a 1099. On reddit knife_swap people were basically posting that if you get a 1099 like this that you are going to get audited or owe big. IRS be comin' for ya! 🙄 With that soft of info getting put out there it's no wonder...
I agree 100% with what you said. The law was not passed to dissuade consumer spending, which could potentially be a very bad thing. Yet, some folks here are hinting that that is exactly the effect it will have on them.
 
The problem I had was an international buyer sent me funds. I refunded the money via PayPal— since I did not want that overseas transaction.

When I got my 1099, PayPal included the refunded sale and not the refund. So you have to have your records in order to avoid reporting and paying taxes on money you didn’t even earn!

If you are on the threshold am incidence like this could be the difference between receiving a 1099 and not. 👎
 
Keep paper. AT&T Bell System lost ALL their payroll records for the years prior to 1984 in a computer woops. Then tens of thousands needed that data for retirement tax calculation - how much could you roll over into an IRA vs how much was ordinary income for the year of retirement. -- making that year's marginal income tax rates , for most, the highest tax rates that they had ever, or would ever, pay. I kept my pay stubs, and I could prove they made a $60,000 error in their WAG that would have cost me and the wife $15,000 in taxes, not to mention the State piggybacking on the federal numbers for another $3,600. So long as GIGO rules (forever), computers cannot be trusted. Not PP's, not your bank's, and certainly not the obsolte junk IRS is stuck with by the irresposible mopes in D.C.
 
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Will look into that. Wouldn't have thought this would qualify as capital gains/losses, but who knows. If it's easier than doing Schedule C, and I can get the software to go there instead, all for it.
My current thinking is Schedule D and reported as capital gains or losses. I am going to pay for the deluxe TurboTax with live help and audit coverage next year for this reason, but that's my plan. Don't know if I can include the PayPal fees and shipping costs in the cost basis for the investment or not though, which is why I want the live help LOL.
 
I do have records of the prices I paid for personal knives that I later sold to reduce clutter (as a hobby), but what costs can I add to create a "basis" of each I knife sold?
Shipping? Insurance? Packing materials?
 
The issue is that now you will have to "prove" a loss or profit. Aka you need receipts/records. And ones that the IRS will accept. Now you have to keep all receipts, etc. if you ever get a receipt. Most of us have not done this in the past. So if you sell an Emerson you bought here two years ago and decided to sell it 4 months from now at $900 .... At a small actual loss. ....You better have receipts or you are going to be taxed on $900 income. Its simply bs. Thanks team Brandon.
 
The issue is that now you will have to "prove" a loss or profit. Aka you need receipts/records. And ones that the IRS will accept. Now you have to keep all receipts, etc. if you ever get a receipt. Most of us have not done this in the past. So if you sell an Emerson you bought here two years ago and decided to sell it 4 months from now at $900 .... At a small actual loss. ....You better have receipts or you are going to be taxed on $900 income. Its simply bs. Thanks team Brandon.
Right - or if you bought something on craigslist and there was no receipt... in my case, say I bought a guitar 10 years back for 1200... how do you prove that? Or if it was something inherited etc...
 
What about determining FMV (Fair Market Value)? Doesn't the IRS itself suggest that may be acceptable when the actual cost is unknown?
 
Pardon me if this has already been explored somewhere in this thread or elsewhere, but how are we supposed to handle the sale of a knife that we traded into, either a one-to-one trade or a trade involving cash? It seems to me that type of situation would complicate things even more.
 
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