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All For Sale threads must have a pic showing the knife being sold with written date listed & your username! - scammers hate this one trick! The rules for The Exchange can be found here. Please read and follow them. Stop using Paypal Friends & Family and follow our best practices to prevent getting ripped off or having a bad deal.
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PayPal F&F only ... REALLY???
- Thread starter JJ_Colt45
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Definitely. That is not negotiating in good faith. Unless you know the seller and he is your friend or family, it is common sense that the normal G&S would apply. If the seller, after agreement on price, introduces terms that effectively raises the price, you can lower your price by the same amount. But really, most of us I think would just be annoyed and tell him to take a hike.
Peter Hartwig
Gold Member
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Not a lawyer, and anyone can be sued , but I don't see the liability of BF. The agreement is between the individual and PP not BF and PP. While BF doesn't take action against individuals suspected of using F&F they tell people not too. Since the payment doesn't go through them they have no way of telling if it actually was paid using F&F or even if a transaction actually takes place.
If they were so inclined they could prohibit the asking for F&F, but that is up to them IMO
If they were so inclined they could prohibit the asking for F&F, but that is up to them IMO
I think it’s a non-argument
K
KenHash
. @Spark seems like a guy that has his sh** together and I’m sure if he thought or was advised of any potential issues, he’d do his homework and do what was needed to stay on the up and up.
He’s letting everyone have their options on how to receive payment and how to pay. With that comes the responsibility to follow the rules that he’s not in charge of enforcing (PayPal). If someone gets burned, it’s no one’s fault but their own.
He’s letting everyone have their options on how to receive payment and how to pay. With that comes the responsibility to follow the rules that he’s not in charge of enforcing (PayPal). If someone gets burned, it’s no one’s fault but their own.
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The owner's choice. You and I may wish otherwise, but it's Sparks' house. His rules.
...and so following the logic of BF being responsible if people want to hurt themselves paying with FF, BF is equally responsible for any blood shed from sharp knives. Let's just close down BF because people are idiots and need to be pampered. We can do a poll 
Ray
Ray
Exactly. And if I were his attorney I'd recommend very strongly to not leave this "out there" posing a liability with no benefit or gain whatsoever, and visible to the whole world. What we members wish for or don't wish for is irrelevant if the forum itself runs into trouble. I think I am correct in saying that all BF members want BF to continue smoothly.
Hold on a second. BF tells people not to use F&F?
Could you show me the link?
If so, sellers requesting F&F are simply not abiding by the BF rules, and the issue is simply no enforcement/moderation. But it would relieve BF itself of responsibility as it proves that BF is not condoning the practice.
For what it's worth I am a member on 2 other knife related forums both of which have sections for selling/buying knives. One forum outright states that no F&F is allowed and a moderator intervenes when there is a violation. The other forum makes no reference, and sellers simply state the price. Everything else is handled directly between seller and buyer.
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It's in the Exchange Rules that pop up at the top of every page while in the Exchange.
Buyers/Buying #8
https://www.bladeforums.com/help/exchange-rules/
...and so following the logic of BF being responsible if people want to hurt themselves paying with FF, BF is equally responsible for any blood shed from sharp knives. Let's just close down BF because people are idiots and need to be pampered. We can do a poll
Ray
Nope. BF is only responsible for it's content. That means what appears on it's site. Nothing else.
Thank you very much.
Indeed it does state clearly:
"Warning: You as a buyer are responsible for using Paypal as it was intended, according to their Terms of Service. Using the "Gift" option revokes any buyer protection you may have if something goes wrong and makes it easier to get scammed. Be smart and protect yourself, if you use gift and get scammed don't come crying to us about it as you've already been advised."
I believe the first sentence does offer an adequate defense against a claim of "condoning" violations of Paypal rules.
Then all this is a matter of whether to enforce this through moderation, or not.
At present it is not, hence this perpetual discussion.
Short of BF choosing to enforce it, the only solution is for Buyers to resist Sellers demanding F&F, and additional payment to cover fees. End of this issue for me.
Personally, I think that Sellers can just do a little 3rd grade math and quote an all inclusive price. Both buyers and sellers would be happy. Additional demands simply place more burden on the buyer and create more cause of unnecessary misunderstanding and dispute. The flaw in BF's present rules is that the warning is aimed at "You as a buyer". The lack of a similar "You as the seller" warning is what leads some sellers to think they are free to openly violate Paypal rules by demanding F&F. And the entire burden of this issue is placed on the buyers but not the sellers.
If you had read the full thread before arguing that BF is liable you may have known that ... or listened to members tell you the same time and time again ...
it is on the members to stop letting this go on as stated in the opening post ... that's the very reason this thread was created ... people still say use F&F and others still fall for it and many loose knives and or money in doing so.
why people argue without doing a little fact checking or without knowing what they are arguing about I'll never understand.
it is on the members to stop letting this go on as stated in the opening post ... that's the very reason this thread was created ... people still say use F&F and others still fall for it and many loose knives and or money in doing so.
why people argue without doing a little fact checking or without knowing what they are arguing about I'll never understand.
I started my post by apologizing for not reading the entire thread. And it took until benchwarmer380 was good enough to point out the wording in the rules. He was the only one who pointed that out and I thanked him for it. You certainly didn't. I don't think a lecture is called for. Thanks anyway. If you want sellers to have the option to openly violate BF rules and Paypal rules, well that's your prerogative. I just happen to disagree. Topics's over for me.
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I wouldn't call leaving it out of the Seller's section a flaw, its more of a calculated omission. By adding it there, it would in effect be a rule and would require the proper moderation to make sure its followed. I understand the reasons to want this rule, but i personally think it should be left as is for many of the reasons already stated.
I'll also add that i disagree in that the burden to use the systems properly is on buyer. Saying the burden is on one or the other or on Bladeforums sounds like the blame for using the system improperly is being placed on someone other than the adult that chose their own actions. Nope, it takes two to tango.
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