PayPal "Gift"

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netguy1999, it is in there.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=699&a=98
Buyers/Buying.
8. Warning: You as a buyer are responsible for using Paypal as it was intended, according to their Terms of Service. Using the "Gift" option revokes any buyer protection you may have if something goes wrong and makes it easier to get scammed. Be smart and protect yourself, if you use gift and get scammed don't come crying to us about it as you've already been advised.
 
netguy1999 said:
It is obviously true that there are many forms of payment that can be arranged as part of a transaction. In my experience, however, it seems that PayPal is by far the preferred method of payment. When I sell a knife, the first question that I get asked is 'what is your PayPal info?'. For the record, I never say F&F. Likewise when I buy a knife, if it is in the USA, I typically use PayPal. My personal use of PayPal aside, I think it is safe to say that most of us are in the same camp. If this is, in fact, accurate I believe that simply stating in the rules that BF discourages the use of PayPal F&F should suffice. BF would not have to police anything. At the same time, people who feel they have been "scammed" or "cheated" because a PayPal issue would not have a leg to stand on in the GBU. They could still complain, but their argument would have little basis for compassion or debate.

We already have a rule that states "Be prompt with your payment". Why not just add one that states "Using F&F is discouraged and not supported by BF".
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Because that is not a hard and fast rule. We already have a rule that discourages the use of paypal gift. The OP is asking for a rule outlawing it not another warning placed in the rules.
 
craytab said:
Because that is not a hard and fast rule. We already have a rule that discourages the use of paypal gift. The OP is asking for a rule outlawing it not another warning placed in the rules.
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Forgive me, but I only see the warning to buyers about using PayPal as intended. I know it seems repetitive, but perhaps adding a similar item to the seller rules would work. I know that seems insignificant to some, and mere semantics to others, but being in both sections means it applies to both parties not just one.
 
cigarrodog said:
I understand the OP's sentiment, but I firmly believe that enforcement will only create a nightmare for the Mods. They already provide ample warnings not to use the F&F Gift option. The effect of natural consequences is still the best teacher. GBU proves that.
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Agreed.

I never use gift option whan buying or selling.
If the seller requires it, I just use regular paypal and add whatever $$ to cover the fees.
If the seller insists on "gift" I just move along. To me that's an open invitation to get scammed, since there is no protection in place if the deal goes south. That's what all need to know.
 
Metalhed2434 said:
I can definitely see your point, I am involved in other non-knife related forums where the paypal gift option is NOT to be used for any sort of transactions advertised on the forums website. I don't think BladeForums should be held responsible for simply hosting these ads, and as hhmoore said, it is addressed in the rules. I do agree however with what I believe you are trying to say.... IMHO no one should ask, request, or demand that a buyer uses the PP gift option....It's not great to demand that a buyer forgo all purchasing protection just because you want to save a few bucks. I believe sellers should just adjust their prices accordingly. At any rate 3% is not a large amount, and should make the buying selling process better for both seller and buyer.

I will also say that as far as I am concerned paypal and ebay are a necessary evil....and I am certainly not opposed to "sticking it to them" by using the gift option. Providing that the amount of money is small, and only if the seller/trader has some reputation to back it up.

In conclusion, I don't think BF needs to adjust any rules, I think people should just be more responsible for their own ads when selling in the trade section. Just my $0.02
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Thanks for self identifying.
 
TOMBSTONE said:
I think if you want to have an impact, the members here should just boycott ads that state gift and do the same for add the 4% nonsense. Even if it means passing on a knife that you really want. Personally, I never understood gift and add this and that. It's really petty when it comes down to the bottom line with relatively small amounts. Its not like trying to save the fee's on a million dollars. It has really gotten to the point of total absurdity in the exchange.
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You got it. If someone insists on the buyer paying the fee's of 4%, 5%, and even more the buyer needs to be ignored. However, there is a type of person, or many of them here that simply either don;t understand out of plain old ignorance or just don't care so they pay the sellers fees. It becomes our problem (moderators) when they start whining and crying that they got burned. Who's fault is it then? Is it the seller? Not really, because no one forced the buyer to make that transaction. At that point, it is quarely on the shoulders of the uyers. I've heard every excuse you can imagine from both sides.
My dog was sick, couldn't ship
My wife forgot to ship
I couldn't make it to the post office, I was working
I didn't have the knife in my possession until recently

On the other side it's always:
I didn't know I couldn't trust them (a total stranger)
I didn't know I could do research (duh)
The seller asked for gift in the ad so I sent it that way.

In the end, every single person is responsible for their own transactions, buying, selling, or trading. If you say you are going to do something , then do it. Show you have integrity and honor your word. If you want to take a chance and get burned, then revoke your only protection. Make some effort as adults to research the type of person you are dealing with, BEFORE handing over hundreds of dollars blindly to a name on a screen. What I keep seeing is that people are too impulsive and are unable to control it.

benchwarmer380 said:
netguy1999, it is in there.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=699&a=98
Buyers/Buying.
8. Warning: You as a buyer are responsible for using Paypal as it was intended, according to their Terms of Service. Using the "Gift" option revokes any buyer protection you may have if something goes wrong and makes it easier to get scammed. Be smart and protect yourself, if you use gift and get scammed don't come crying to us about it as you've already been advised.
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Ahh, yes, the page that no one bothers reading.
 
netguy1999 said:
Forgive me, but I only see the warning to buyers about using PayPal as intended. I know it seems repetitive, but perhaps adding a similar item to the seller rules would work. I know that seems insignificant to some, and mere semantics to others, but being in both sections means it applies to both parties not just one.
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Makes no difference if people don't read the page, does it? The section that line item is placed in is the only correct place. Adding it to the sellers section, implies we are again enforcing paypal's rules. Which as we already know we are not responsible for, the individual using Paypal has to have some accountability in that. It is correctly written and placed as is. I thought it over at great length when I added that line. As the section reads today, it does apply to both sides. The buyers have the RIGHT/CHOICE/OPTION to either screw themselves over potentially or not. We cannot control what people do with their money or how they chose to send it. All we can do is advise, and that is covered in spades. IF buyers want to report violators to Paypal directly for misuse if a service, that is also their choice.
 
RevDevil said:
Makes no difference if people don't read the page, does it? The section that line item is placed in is the only correct place. Adding it to the sellers section, implies we are again enforcing paypal's rules. Which as we already know we are not responsible for, the individual using Paypal has to have some accountability in that. It is correctly written and placed as is. I thought it over at great length when I added that line. As the section reads today, it does apply to both sides. The buyers have the RIGHT/CHOICE/OPTION to either screw themselves over potentially or not. We cannot control what people do with their money or how they chose to send it. All we can do is advise, and that is covered in spades. IF buyers want to report violators to Paypal directly for misuse if a service, that is also their choice.
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I understand your reasoning and appreciate you candor. I deal with many people who look for any loophole possible in policies. As such, I am forced to ensure there is no ambiguity in corporate security policies otherwise some user will say "but in this section, it doesn't say I can't do this". I agree that it should be understood by all users of this forum, but there will always be some that will look for that loophole. I'm happy to leave things the way they are. Personally, I have not had any problems with this issue. I always research the items I buy or sell along with the person I'm buying from or selling to. From that, I can establish how much I trust an individual. I haven't been burned yet. I'm sure one day I will, but it will be my fault for not paying enough attention. This approach also comes from trying to teach cyber security awareness to users - trust no-one. It still kills me how people fall for some on-line scams, but I digress.

In short, I agree. Users are responsible for their own actions. And like you said, if you get burned don't complain about it if you didn't do your homework.
 
I've also been seeing lately where sellers get screwed by PayPal gift. Buyer sends funds via PayPal gift using a credit card. Seller ships item. Buyer claims credit card fraud. Seller says "but I shipped the item and it was delivered/signed for." PayPal says too bad to seller as it was a gift payment and violated paypal's own rules for transactions. For that reason I won't even accept a friends and family transaction.
 
RevDevil said:
We cannot control what people do with their money or how they chose to send it. All we can do is advise, and that is covered in spades. IF buyers want to report violators to Paypal directly for misuse if a service, that is also their choice.
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Its very much like shipping autos. It's not BF'S to police the legality of it and ensure everyone is following laws. All they can so is recommend you do.

Rev, esav and all the others aren't cops.
 
HappyDaddy said:
Let me say up front that I hope this thread can stay in GBU, but, as it technically deals with a potential rules change, it may get moved to Tech Support. I also hope that the conversation (if there is any) will stay focused on the precise proposal and not devolve into a discussion of other matters or complaints about this deal or that person.

Very simply, I think that BFC should specifically prohibit any seller from posting in the sales thread a requirement that payment be by PayPal "gift." Here's why: The PalPal terms of service apply the prohibition against accepting "personal payments" (their term for "gift") to the seller. I find no prohibition against the payor. The remedies for breaching the terms of service in those circumstances all apply to the person accepting the payment, not the person making the payment. Imposing this prohibition would, in my opinion, remove any "stain" on BFC accruing from facilitating the knowing and intentional violation of PayPal's terms of service and, perhaps more importantly, I believe it would greatly reduce the use of "gift" payments and the associated problems that arise from it.

If a seller can't openly require "gift" payments, he is left with two alternatives concerning PayPal. He can either accept "goods and services" payment (and adjust his price to reflect fees if he wishes), or he can require an additional step in private communication with the potential buyer by which he informs the buyer of his "gift" requirement. It seems to me that the latter option would be too burdensome and aggravating for most and would be eschewed in favor of the former.

I understand the hesitancy on the part of BFC to get too deep in the weeds of policing Exchange transactions. However, I think this issue is unique and can be addressed without concern with opening the floodgates to a host of other niggling rules. Ultimately, I think BFC and its members/users would be better off for the change I suggest.
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Thanks for starting this thread, HD. The information that is shared here, is typically very helpful for future reference.

cigarrodog said:
The effect of natural consequences is still the best teacher. GBU proves that.
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^^^
X1000! :thumbup:

smuiradise said:
I've also been seeing lately where sellers get screwed by PayPal gift. Buyer sends funds via PayPal gift using a credit card. Seller ships item. Buyer claims credit card fraud. Seller says "but I shipped the item and it was delivered/signed for." PayPal says too bad to seller as it was a gift payment and violated paypal's own rules for transactions. For that reason I won't even accept a friends and family transaction.
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^^^
That would be a very interesting conversation to listen in on. The one between the deceitful seller, & the PayPal representative. :o
 
Honestly the easiest way to deal with this issue is to just skip ads that say f and f or add fees. If everyone did this then eventually people would stop stipulating those terms. These items are all luxury items not necessities therefore passing on an item is not life or death. The real problem is that everyone says the dont agree with paying as a gift but when the right item comes up with the right seller they justify and compromise their own supposed principals. Otherwise the ads with those stipulations would just sit dormant and eventually the seller would either change their terms or sit on the item. So if this is something you truly feel passionate about next time that must have item comes up at a great price with those terms dont compromise your principals.
 
grailhunter78 said:
Honestly the easiest way to deal with this issue is to just skip ads that say f and f or add fees. If everyone did this then eventually people would stop stipulating those terms. These items are all luxury items not necessities therefore passing on an item is not life or death. The real problem is that everyone says the dont agree with paying as a gift but when the right item comes up with the right seller they justify and compromise their own supposed principals. Otherwise the ads with those stipulations would just sit dormant and eventually the seller would either change their terms or sit on the item. So if this is something you truly feel passionate about next time that must have item comes up at a great price with those terms dont compromise your principals.
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This here is the absolute truth.
Integrity isn't something that has a price.
Integrity is what action you take, even when noones watching.
 
For every change/rule made with good intentions, other outcomes will be revealed. I can see seller ads containing lines saying "PM me for payment instructions", etc.
 
Don't want paypal gift don't accept it or give it, is up to you, who is anybody to tell grown adults how to pay for something, BF is not responsible, they've giving plenty warning.
 
Saw an item in another group for $10 sent as PayPal gift. If you want to use goods and services just add a few $$..... Really? A few dollars for a less than $1 fee?
 
Heirphoto said:
Saw an item in another group for $10 sent as PayPal gift. If you want to use goods and services just add a few $$..... Really? A few dollars for a less than $1 fee?
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No, just add 3% and that covers the fees, $10.30 would have been fine.
 
knifehunt said:
No, just add 3% and that covers the fees, $10.30 would have been fine.
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It's not fine. Purchasing a product is NOT a gift and it's not giving money to "Friends and Family".

One can call it a loophole or a decision or anything else they want to say to justify unethical behavior. At the end of the day it's a matter of ethics. There is a fee to use paypal to sell an item. It's a fee paid for by the seller. If you don't want to use paypal, use another form, but asking for "friends and family" or a gift option is an outright lie. It's not ethical, it's not justified by any of the "qualifiers" noted in this thread. It's a lie and I won't do business like that.
 
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