Performance: Forged vs Stock Removal

Hi Mike,

I was curious as to what steels you use and what heat treat process you employ? Nothing detailed, just the basics. Do you cryo and such?

Brett Gatlin
 
You'll have to forgive my ignorance, but if I'm not mistaken, but aren't these newer high alloy steels made for thier extereme wear resistance like milling and other machining applications? And for normal cutting duties, are they really neccessary.

I can't help but wonder if these high performance steels are really neccessary in a knife and are they being used as a marketing strategy? It almost sounds as if some may be suggesting that high carbon steels may be obsolete?

Bob
 
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In my opinion, it's the manipulation of material more than the material itself which will determine the level of performance for a given use.

In general, I would trust that an experienced forger would know their material better than a stock removal practitioner, who can simply trust in the quality control of the steel manufacturer to supply results.

This knowledge of material I think would manifest itself in appropriately designed tools, in addition to all the other considerations, which is as much a defining factor in the end performance of a knife.

I like to think that a man/woman who manipulates steel to pull out its best attributes for a given function would do a better job than one who simply purchases ready made stock and grinds it into a knife. I know it's not that simple, and that some of my favorite makers only grinds from stock, with amazing results.

How does it go? There's no bad cutlery steel, only some are better for some applications than others...
 
Lorien said:
In my opinion, it's the manipulation of material more than the material itself which will determine the level of performance for a given use.

In general, I would trust that an experienced forger would know their material better than a stock removal practitioner, who can simply trust in the quality control of the steel manufacturer to supply results.

This knowledge of material I think would manifest itself in appropriately designed tools, in addition to all the other considerations, which is as much a defining factor in the end performance of a knife.

I like to think that a man/woman who manipulates steel to pull out its best attributes for a given function would do a better job than one who simply purchases ready made stock and grinds it into a knife. I know it's not that simple, and that some of my favorite makers only grinds from stock, with amazing results.

How does it go? There's no bad cutlery steel, only some are better for some applications than others...
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Regardless of how the blade is formed, I still would think the heat treatment and tempering is a major factor determining performance.

Peter
 
...and if you are forging a blade, then the knowledge of how to properly heat treat and temper the steel comes with the territory. Not necessarily so with stock removal, which often sees that critical process outsourced.

How many metal pounders outsource their heat treatment?

There are probably a good number of people making stock removal blades who have educated themselves on heat treatment and tempering, but I've heard from some well known makers that they don't want to bother with this process as it's easier to outsource. As an end user, the whole thing comes down to trust.

The other aspect is creativity; whereas a stock removal knife can be 100% designed on paper before it's made, a forged knife can change greatly from its original design due to the process of drawing the steel and shaping it. This is only a little theory of mine, so I might be way off base. I don't mind being corrected if that's the case:)

Most of the large blades I use are forged. Granted, some are made in a tin hut in Nepal and didn't cost much money, but they still work pretty well. Others cost much more and work really well. How they'd stack up against something like a Busse, I may never know. I'd rather pay $600 for a knife made by Matt Lamey or Burt Foster or Tai Goo or Jason Knight or Nick Wheeler.......:D
 
Lorien said:
The other aspect is creativity; whereas a stock removal knife can be 100% designed on paper before it's made, a forged knife can change greatly from its original design due to the process of drawing the steel and shaping it. This is only a little theory of mine, so I might be way off base. I don't mind being corrected if that's the case:)
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I draw my forged blades out on paper and design them ahead of time. If I want to hold to an exact design, I make a brass shim template and forge to that shape, leaving a little extra material in all directions. This allows me to stock remove the forging to an "exact design"!

In my opinion, unless you're leaving a knife "as forged" with blemishes, hammer marks and all, you're making a stock removal knife. Each one of my forged knives get quite a bit of time on the grinding belt. Maybe not as much as my stock removal blades, but still quite a bit of time.

A "stock removal" only maker is taking forged (by the steel manufacturer) flat steel and cutting/grinding it to shape. All steel for knives is forged.

A "bladesmith" (forger) is taking forged (by the steel manufacturer) flat or round or bearing rollers and forging it to a near net shape. He then grinds it to final shape. All steel for knives is forged.
 
Exactly!

I both heat treat and send some out.

Stainless can be pressed very quickly. You only have a very narrow range of heat before causing stress cracks. In some grades, many I see being claimed to be forged, you only have a 100-200 degree window. There is no way you can get it out of the forge and onto an anvil. Much less forge it on the anvil without going way below the thresh hold. Many in the Knife world call the big presses forging. Try this in the gun industry! There is a huge difference between pressed frames and forged frames. Not to mention investment cast frames. Seems like somehow this got lost in the Knife industry. One large manufacturer made a big splash last year about their MIM blade, and how it couldn't be produced any other way. They claim superiority for it. However, in the fire arms industry, the MIM parts have long been known to be of inferior strength. Especially when used for hammers and sears.

Necessary to have all that abrasion resistance. It's like I'm being ask is superior performance is really scary. Huh? Isn't that what we all strive for?
Is a Fine Chronograph better that a throwaway Timex. Is a Ferrari really better than my Chevy. A 300 Weatherby really better than my old muzzle loader. The Central air better than a wood stove, and open windows here in Texas in 110 degree weather? To me yes it is.

Superior steel, ATS-34? No. It is a very competent steel. I have seen simple carbon steel Knives lose their edge over night whiled never leaving their sheath in the humid jungles of South East Asia.

Vasco Wear. Vasco 350. Steal light. SV 90 are just a few truly Superior steels. A vasco wear blade will cut a normal knife blade in half. You can't use it in the ABS test, even if it could be forged. Why. You can't bend it! It will not bend 90 degrees and bend back. I feel that a knife that will do this is in its self a failure. Vasco will simply not give. You'll rip the vice off the bench before it will bend or break. With the amount of force needed to break it you would be able to tie a a differentially tempered blade into a bow. Nice and neat.


Bitter, Not by a long shot. You must have missed the part where I said the I started Knife Making by Forging. If I felt that it in any way produced a superior blade, I would still be doing it that way. It's a a hell of a lot cheaper to produce a knife that way.
BitterHere is just one of many forged blades I did years ago.

MIke

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Along with a Forged Cable Damascus Hunter. The "Rio Grande" 1989.

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As has already been shown here by myself and others. All knives are forged. One way or the other.

My goal is performance first and foremost. Tactile feel Second. Right along with truly solid build quality. You can take two Lovett knives and hit the handles together, and the entire knife will ring like a piece of steel.

The Least Important is striking visual appeal. Yes it does have to look good enough to make a customer want to pick it up. This doesn't mean it has to be an art knife. Let's be honest. Most of the knives pictured here in these threads now days couldn't do an honest days work on a bet! Even if you would dare to try!

Mike
 
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This is a Pic a Tyledyne Vasco Wear Knife I made for a soldier heading to theater. The rockwell hardness is extreemly high.

ThePersianFighter.jpg
 
Here is a scan of the same Knife. The Soldier. (Now a very well known collector of Loveless, Moran, and Lovett Knives.) Carried this knife into Combat. Where his life could very well have depended on it. He and I designed this knife, as he was three time all U.S. Army Marshal Artist Edged Weapons Champion. He knows what a Fighting Knife need to be. S

She is light and extremely strong!

He just sent the Knife in simply because I had no patter for it. It was made in quite a rush as he had to ship out is just a few days.

This Knife has now been in his hands for over 18 years. It has never been refinished. It has never had to be resharpened. And Yes. It is well Used. Judge for your self. Just how this knife has held up. Do you have a knife that could match it's record? If there is a steel that can be hand forged that can match it's performance, I nor any one else has found it.

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Michael Lovett said:
Can't get the wide or broad blades with stock removal? Bull! It just cost the maker Much More. Forging is a cheaper way to get blades from thick over sized bars or rounds of steel.
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Michael Lovett said:
Bitter, Not by a long shot. You must have missed the part where I said the I started Knife Making by Forging. If I felt that it in any way produced a superior blade, I would still be doing it that way. It's a a hell of a lot cheaper to produce a knife that way.
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Forging = a cheaper way to make blades. Got it. :rolleyes:

Roger
 
Michael Lovett said:
Most of the knives pictured here in these threads now days couldn't do an honest days work on a bet! Even if you would dare to try!

Mike
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Mike, that is simply Bullshit! :rolleyes:

Sure, some of the knives. But not most of them:rolleyes:

Mike, you're not competing with the forged blade market. Most of your buyers don't buy forged blades, some do I know. So why the constant trashing of forged blades and simple carbon steels :confused:

I don't like stainless (high alloy) steels, but I'm not trashing them.
 
I think its important to remember that the phrase "forge thick, grind thin" applies to forged blades. Once that blade is to shape, its pretty much all stock removal from there. Other than the craft of actually moving the steel, I don't see much difference when a maker forges 1/4" round rod into a 1/8" thick blade or a maker starts with 1/8" stock and cuts the same shape blade. A good number of the forgers i've seen actually start with barstock and are just forging it to shape, as well. I think there are all different levels of forging. Some are forging blades almost to final shape from large stock by hand, while others are taking flat barstock, and simply hammering out the tip and bevels. Also, taking a big bar and using a hydraulic press to flatten it before forging to shape isnt a whole lot different than the steel manufacturerer rolling a bar into barstock and a maker forging that bar to shape.

Forging does allow the maker to save money and materials by allowing him to move steel wherever he likes...forging an ingtegral is much less costly than buying a huge bar of equal steel and grinding most of it away.

IMHO, once that blade is forged to shape, the process of completing the knife is no different for a forger than a stock removal guy. A big difference, however, is in the pile of scrap that the forger doesn't have left over. It is indeed cheaper to forge than stock remove....
 
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Hey Don, what is it that you don't like about stainless steels?
 
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