Performance: Forged vs Stock Removal

[RogerP]

Mike, that is simply Bullshit!

Sure, some of the knives. But not most of them

Mike, you're not competing with the forged blade market. Most of your buyers don't buy forged blades, some do I know. So why the constant trashing of forged blades and simple carbon steels

I don't like stainless (high alloy) steels, but I'm not trashing them.

Well said.

Roger

 

[Jon Brand]

I've only cut with stainless and have been itching to put a forged blade to the test. However, I dont really have anything to cut except boxes. Many ATS-34 blades I have used seemed to wear down pretty fast. I usually send them back for sharpening since I am no good at it.

 

[Don Hanson III]

Hey Don, what is it that you don't like about stainless steels?

Purely personal preference. I just don't like it and if I explained all my reasons why, like some do for their dislike of other materials, I would piss some folks off

I really like the sharpness of a thinly ground edge made from very fine grain high carbon steel. I also like the color, look and feel.

I really don't see the point in comparing the two, there is plenty of room for both

 

[SAR]

I really don't see the point in comparing the two, there is plenty of room for both

Thats really the bottom line,

I have been doing stock removal for the last three years to include developing my methods for Heat treat in the shop. Which we all know if you don't get the HT correct, which is difficult in both carbon and SS you may as well make your knives from wood!

I have a profound respect for both sides of the fence, with the intent to attend the ABS school this year. I feel the more educated one becomes at his craft the better his craft will become.

Mike you know I have a lot of respect for you and will alway be thankful for those first lessons on "hollow grinding" and knife making in general which changed everything I do and led to the "Hornet design" a month later. But this time I have to admit you sound a bit harsh about the subject.


This thread makes me respect and listen to Kevin Cashen and Scott Devanna even more, these guys are like the steel world myth busters. They base there opinions on scientific facts, real world testing with the passion of a person trying to find the cure for cancer.

The last thing on this thread is it always ends up this way, the next time someone post the "Forging vs Stock removal thread just ban them". This type of discussion comes of no good for either side of the fence, nor the good of the knife industry.


Sorry for the ramble
Spencer

 

[Hmathews]

In my opinion, it's the manipulation of material more than the material itself which will determine the level of performance for a given use.

My son manipulated the metal in the front end of my 68 Chevelle about three weeks ago and you are right about it determining the level of performance. For the time being anyway :grumpy: I don't think that statement has as much to do with knives though. If it was true you could just go to Lowe’s and buy some iron, manipulate it some and make a high performance knife without having to buy W2, 1084, 1095, 52100, or any of the other high carbon steel that make good knives. There is a little more to it than metal manipulation,

Stating that because someone forges a blade he knows more about heat treating than someone that uses stock removal doesn't make much sense to me either. Everyone is different and has different approaches to reach the result they are after. If you find one maker that sends his blades out to be heat treated, that doesn't mean that he can't do it or doesn't know how. It might be cost prohibitive for him to do it. We do both. We heat treat some and send some out, depends on what we have going on and how fast we need the work done. We have two digital kilns, a few torches, two forges, a couple of anvils, a bunch of hammers and a dewar of liquid nitrogen. We have two five gallon pots of quenching oil, one fast and one slow, along with two quench plates and a Rockwell hardness tester. We also have a bucket of goo that works pretty well on certain steels if the moon is right and the anvil was pointed at the nearest virgin. We know how to use them all. The last thing I would assume is someone’s capabilities or knowledge based on the method he uses to shape blades.

It doesn't do any one any good to run down the person that chooses a different way of doing things. I have always found that if you find your self in competition with someone for a sale, the worst thing you can do to win the customer over is run down your competition. The customers just don't like it and we don't do it.

We use both the stock removal method and the forge. We like both methods and both have their place in modern knifemaking. It doesn't mean that one method produces superior knives to the other or that one type of maker has any superior knowledge than the other. There are some pretty bad makers on both sides as well as there are great ones. The great ones seem to be willing to teach and the bad ones keep getting better, which is good for everybody. We also understand and appreciate that there are collectors that prefer one method over the other. That is fine and as it should be. It takes all kinds to make the world interesting.

 

[RogerP]

I have a profound respect for both sides of the fence...

This goes for me, too. Both methods have their respective stregths - both are entirely valid. We should be able to discuss this topic intelligently without the type of asinine comments made by one party in this thread.

Roger

 

[Starkman1]

The last thing on this thread is it always ends up this way, the next time someone post the "Forging vs Stock removal thread just ban them". This type of discussion comes of no good for either side of the fence, nor the good of the knife industry.


Sorry for the ramble
Spencer

Sorry you feel this way, and with all due respect, you don't need to participate in the thread. Perhaps you are reading more into the post than was originally intended. I was under the impression that's what forums are about...discussion . The problem is some folks may take things personal. As a collector with limited experience, this discussion, albeit at times a little heated, has been educational and a learning experience.

Interestingly, the 2008 Knives Illustrated states that forging is a quicker way of producing blades. If I'm going to spend my hard earn dollars, I would like to justify my purchases using good information. As with any consumer, you want to know what you're paying for and why (e.g. steel type, construction method, performance etc.).

I'm a big fan of forged blades, and always will be. However, I've taken an interest in knives constructed by stock removal methods and have a new found appreciation of them as I learn more. Now that Blade is soon approaching, this is an opportunity for me to examine both types of knives from the top makers in the industry. I'm just trying to sort through the hype.

Bob

 

[bgspecialk]

My son manipulated the metal in the front end of my 68 Chevelle about three weeks ago and you are right about it determining the level of performance. For the time being anyway :grumpy: I don't think that statement has as much to do with knives though. If it was true you could just go to Lowe’s and buy some iron, manipulate it some and make a high performance knife without having to buy W2, 1084, 1095, 52100, or any of the other high carbon steel that make good knives. There is a little more to it than metal manipulation,

Stating that because someone forges a blade he knows more about heat treating than someone that uses stock removal doesn't make much sense to me either. Everyone is different and has different approaches to reach the result they are after. If you find one maker that sends his blades out to be heat treated, that doesn't mean that he can't do it or doesn't know how. It might be cost prohibitive for him to do it. We do both. We heat treat some and send some out, depends on what we have going on and how fast we need the work done. We have two digital kilns, a few torches, two forges, a couple of anvils, a bunch of hammers and a dewar of liquid nitrogen. We have two five gallon pots of quenching oil, one fast and one slow, along with two quench plates and a Rockwell hardness tester. We also have a bucket of goo that works pretty well on certain steels if the moon is right and the anvil was pointed at the nearest virgin. We know how to use them all. The last thing I would assume is someone’s capabilities or knowledge based on the method he uses to shape blades.

It doesn't do any one any good to run down the person that chooses a different way of doing things. I have always found that if you find your self in competition with someone for a sale, the worst thing you can do to win the customer over is run down your competition. The customers just don't like it and we don't do it.

We use both the stock removal method and the forge. We like both methods and both have their place in modern knifemaking. It doesn't mean that one method produces superior knives to the other or that one type of maker has any superior knowledge than the other. There are some pretty bad makers on both sides as well as there are great ones. The great ones seem to be willing to teach and the bad ones keep getting better, which is good for everybody. We also understand and appreciate that there are collectors that prefer one method over the other. That is fine and as it should be. It takes all kinds to make the world interesting.

Sage comments indeed.
I don't think that much more needs to be added.

Thank you Harry.

Paul Kessler

 

[David Schott]

I think when it comes down to performance, its fairly clear that if done correctly, a forged or a stock removal blade will perform identically. This means that a stock removal guy will cycle his steel in similar ways to a forger or that a forger will ensure he never overheats and burns the carbon of the steel, etc etc. In the end, two knives made from the same steel with the same exact HT process should behave and perform the same. Forging doesn't impart any magical properties in the steel that cannot be gained through proper heat treating otherwise. You don't need to bang on steel with a hammer to get it to perform as a knife properly. (disclaimer: Some would disagree with this, but cannot substaniate why, see Cashen's article on this)

I think alot of the weird animosity comes when people group makers into one category or another. Some people frown on stock removal guys without realizing that much of a forger's work is identical to that stock removal guy. Some people assume stock removers know nothing about heat treating when in reality some stock removers actually control their HT much more precisely than a guy trying to do the same over an open forge. Some also think that all forging is made equal without realizing that some "forged" blades are simply barstock with the tip forged in. Others assume that a stock removal knife is somehow easier to make than a forged blade...These are mostly assumptions about stock removal as I have seen them. You could put together an equally false set of assumptions about forging that exist.

I think it all comes down to the maker and THEIR methods of their chosen style, not the style or methods themselves.

 

[brightred]

???? I'm not real sure where you are coming from with this statement, but I would rather think that if the "initial sharpness.....is rather poor" you might have more of a problem with a maker than with stainless steel in general. There are all different kinds of stainless and all different kinds of sharp.

Hard to sharpen? Ever herd of diamond hones. The old oil stones were your great grand dad's tools. Get with the moder world! Polish on the palm of the hand? If the chosen steel has so little abrasion resistance that the palm of your hand will change it, It is "NOT" going to handle any type of real work in the field.

hey, on the goo-fikes scale, i am a tenth chakra cutting master (fikes is level 14...)!

shown before, just to illustrate what "initial sharpness" means to me:

tai goo kitchen knife, 1095: sharpened and honed on a translucent arkansas stone, stropped on leather with diamond paste - free standing newspaper roll:

free standing cigarette paper:

the fikes cupped cigarette paper test:

rolled kleenex, held at one end between two fingers:

and this is the tenth chakra cut: soft multi-layer toilett paper, held between thumb and forefinger:

to be continued...

 

[brightred]

hansjörg kilchenmann, san-mai kitchen knife, sharpened and honed on japanese water stones, stropped on leather with diamond paste:

the knife, the stone:

easy task:

the book:

the book 2:

i tried this with high quality ss blades. sharpened for half an hour (!), stropped for ten minutes (!), didn't work. as far as i know it has something to do with grain size, carbides, toothy edges, edge geometry etc. but, heck, i am not cliff!

and actually i do own some high alloy steel knives, and i love them.

best regards,
hans, looking forward to your pictures

 

[peterinct]

I think both forged and stock removal have their advantages and disadvantages just as the many types of carbon and stainless steels have different characteristics.

I also wonder why those that prefer one or the other feel it necessary to downplay what they don't prefer? I guess it is just human nature.

Depending on what the use is, there are times I prefer stainless and times I like carbon steel.

Also, as can be seen in numerous threads on this forum, there are stunning examples of forged knives as well as stock removal.

Additionally, so far, there hasn't been much posted with examples of real world usage stating applications where specific configurations outperformed others?

I would assume the knives are all forged that are used in ABS cutting competitions. It would be interesting to see some stock removal knives used for the same test as a comparison.

Peter

 

[RogerP]

A most impressive display, Hans. :thumbup:

Roger

 

[Brett Gatlin]

Just speaking from my own experience, I can make a stock removal blade in less time than a forged blade. But that could just be me.

Oh, and once again, Don Hanson hits the nail on the head!

Brett

 

[Don Hanson III]

Hans, now that's what I meant when I said:

"I really like the sharpness of a thinly ground edge made from very fine grain high carbon steel."

Good stuff, Man :thumbup:

 

[Don Hanson III]

Brett, your not alone, takes me much longer to do a forged blade too

 

[Lorien]

that is some amazing cutting Brightred!

Who knows how to sharpen better? Forgers or stock removers?
Just kidding!

Point being made in this thread; each maker defines their own approach to performance. Some care, and some really, really, really care! Method is no determinant, whereas the maker's approach to making knives is the sole determinant of performance.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

I have a lot of different irons in the fire right now, so I really don't have the time to spread myself thin posting in places I normally don't visit, so my participation here may be limited, but there is one point that I really had to touch on.

It has been asked how many forgers outsource their heat treatment, I think I read that as a good thing that they don't. It should be no secret that I am a bladesmith, I forge just about every blade I make, and yet I find myself siding with the stock removers almost every time this discussion is had. I sincerely believe that if you had 10 blades made by guys that grind and 10 blades made by bladesmiths and you randomly chose one from each category, your chances of getting a better blade are much greater in the stock removal side!

Why do I say this? Because nothing is more critical to proper steel performance than the heat treatment and if the stock removal guys are not equipped to do it right they seem much more likely to send it to a professional who is, and knows what they are doing. I have very rarely heard stock removers going on about bizarre mumbo jumbo or convoluted heating methods with kooky quenches that seem to defeat every principle that steel actually works by. Yet on countless occasions I have come very close to asking if a smith was joking when he told me his method heat treatment until realizing he was quite serious. Most stock removers I know understand soak times and proper cooling curves, they often came to knifemaking from another profession that taught them sound practices. Too many bladesmiths have read or learned from one of their gurus that all those spec sheets put out by the folks that made the steel simply don’t apply to knives, and if you just heat it up with a torch and drop it into the super-duper secret goop, you will make a magic blade that performs in ways the rest of the world can’t understand. As I said, I am bladesmith and I am exposed to the smithing culture everyday and I can sum up the internal condition of far too many forged blades with two words- fine pearlite.

Ease of sharpening is a term that always makes me wince. Sharpening is the wearing of the edge into a finer more useful shape, an edge that wears with ease in one way certainly does in another… If I were buying a knife I would want it to resist wear. Most knife blades max out at around 63HRC I can guarantee most abrasives that any stone could be made of will exceed that. The biggest factor I have ever encountered in difficulty in sharpening was edge geometry, reshaping the edge so you can actually engage it with the stone will usually allow a quick edge to be put on regardless of hardness. Diamond hones have also be mentioned, I can make steel pretty darned hard, but I ain’t that good- if you know what I mean.

Through proper (and reasonable) heating sequences optimum conditions can be set up in steel, but until many bladesmiths give up their delusional pursuits of magic blades, and endless reinventing the wheel just to spite those uppity spec sheet writers, I will still give the odds to the stock removers.

 

[RMLamey]

Kevin, with due respect I find that the guys I communicate with in on the forged side spend ALOT more time focusing on heat treat, edge geometry and performance in general than do my stock removal buddies. From my view it seems that the forge guys are much more interested in whats going on with the steel... if they truly want to make good performance knives they MUST be.

I greatly respect the info. you share, but from my view, and from the folks I know on both sides (forging/stock removal), the nod would definitely go to the forged guys on performance.

 

[McIntosh]

I agree with Matt