Performance: Forged vs Stock Removal

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Kevin, you say your most valuable tool would be the microscope and examining the (micro) structures of the steel. The problem is that it only shows one teeny tiny little spot on the surface at a time.

Ummm you are aware that there are little dials on the side of a microscope stage that will allow you to move around on the subject, aren’t you? Toy microscopes may have only one objective, but others have magnifications ranging from 50X to 1000X or better, I can look at every spot from spine to edge and tip to tang if I wish. Really! Honest!

… the macrostructure is a direct indication of the microstructures,... metallogically speaking.

Ohh no it is not, this I can say with some certainty… trust me! It is assumptions like this that has been most unhealthy to our work.

...If you have some kind of mental block about it, that's fine, but don't impose or "project" your short comings on to everyone else...

What shortcomings would those be Tai? I have said nothing about you, your knives or your methods, because I know nothing about them and I will give you the benefit of the doubt until I do. But what do you know about my methods and shortcomings that I don't?

...Just because some smiths need (or believe they need) salt pots, pyrometers, microscopes, Rockwell testers, and a library full of metallurgical trivia, etc… doesn’t mean everyone does...

Perhaps you could tell me what it is I need or believe I need then Tai? For I have never told anybody that any of things above are necessary to make a knife, except knowledge. For the most part I didn’t get most of those tools you mention for making knives, I got them because I got tired of being fed bogus information and decided to get armed to check things out for myself. A review of any of my posts will show that I have actually discouraged people from bothering with many of these tools if it was going to get in the way of what they were doing. The one thing that I do say is most valuable to anybody is as much knowledge as they can get, self imposed ignorance is the most crippling affliction I can imagine, and leaves one quite vulnerable to any line fed to them.

To be honest Tai I don’t get this bait and switch method of yours. Virtually every exchange I have had with you now has started out very pleasant and amicable, only to have you turn on a dime midway and get quite offensive with your assumptions and assessments about me. I respect the people who can agree with me, I respect the people who disagree with me, I can even respect the people who have always thought I was a jerk, but a person who can’t make up his mind from one paragraph to the other leaves me wondering when they are ever sincere.

Sorry to seem short about it but this hot and cold routine is growing tiresome. Please don’t flood me with e-mail, just be up front if you can agree or disagree with my points without going ad hominem, either take the dagger out from behind your back or quite geeting me with a smile. Matt Lamey and Don Hanson have consistently disagreed with my points throughout this discussion, but I feel nothing but good intentions and mutual respect from them, so much so I am tempted to take more consideration of the positions from which they do not waiver.

 

[Tai Goo]

O.K. Kevin.

If you examine AND test the macrostructure it will indicate what the underlying microstructures are... In other words pearlite looks different than martensite by comparison under an etch and won't hold an edge very well... Besides that, the macrostructure "IS" the blade... "metallogically" speaking.

I like your pseudoscientific approach to bladesmithing. It sounds like fun,... if you're into it! I guess it takes all kinds.

It's not so much hot and cold, just how it's received. Just because we're friends doesn't mean we always have to agree, does it?

Dagger behind my back? No! I'm actually very pacifistic and only enjoy peaceful hobbies, bird watching, yoga, meditation, sex, stuff like that. There might be an extra beer back there though. Weird being a knifemaker... So much “cutting chi” to deal with. After the work day is over,... I don't even want to look at a knife. It's NOT my hobby!... Trust me!

You seem to be at odds with yourself and trying to reconcile internal conflicts about this craft. I've been there too! I'm just trying to help,... really. I'm glad you are making a bloom,... just don't screw it up with a dang Rockwell ding... You'll regret it the morning after. Trust me!

What I really want to do is make a knife that will cook me breakfast and make my bed for me in the morning... Getting one to cut is pretty easy.

Don't worry, you didn't hurt my feelings...

 

[Keith Montgomery]

What I really want to do is make a knife that will cook me breakfast and make my bed for me in the morning...

I'm in for one of those. :thumbup:

As far as performance is concerned, I don't think it matters whether the knives are forged or stock removed. The reason that I prefer forged is for the tradition and the romanticized concept of man, fire and steel.

 

[Tai Goo]

I'm in for one of those. :thumbup:

As far as performance is concerned, I don't think it matters whether the knives are forged or stock removed. The reason that I prefer forged is for the tradition and the romanticized concept of man, fire and steel.

The first one is for me. The second one has your name on it!

Agreed! Good point about tradition, romance, man, fire and steel. That's what's "cool" about it! Right on brother!

 

[Ken Williams]

Mr. Cashen

I don't know much about history . . . or geography . . . or steel, but I do know few pack more reason, literacy, magnanimity, and expertise into posts than you. Please favor us at BF by hanging out here a routine.

ken

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

...You seem to be at odds with yourself and trying to reconcile internal conflicts about this craft. I'm just trying to help...

Tai, I get no end of entertainment from somebody of your mindset and mannerisms attempting to psychoanalyze me. If I look at it this way, you have helped. I will still be smiling at the thought of it tomorrow.

 

[Tai Goo]

Tai, I get no end of entertainment from somebody of your mindset and mannerisms attempting to psychoanalyze me. If I look at it this way, you have helped. I will still be smiling at the thought of it tomorrow.

Hey Thanks!

Psychoanalysis is just my hobby... and yes it is peaceful. Hey! take it for what it’s worth. I’m no expert. No charge man! If it strikes a chord,… go for it!

... lots of food for thought here...

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Mr. Cashen

I don't know much about history . . . or geography . . . or steel, but I do know few pack more reason, literacy, magnanimity, and expertise into posts than you. Please favor us at BF by hanging out here a routine.

ken

Ken, thank you very much. Literacy I don't know about, if it weren't for spell checkers my posts wouldn’t even be legible. This is perhaps the first time magnanimity has ever been hung next to my name, the more you deal with certain issues the better you get at criticizing than encouraging, I will try to earn your description better in the future. The most effective flattery was the reason part. I am a creature of logic, and hold myself to a pretty high standard of reasoning whenever presenting positions, not all people work off the same paradigm and I need to remember that.

I am actually quite a regular at Bladeforums, but spend most of my time in the Bladesmithing sub-forum. As you can see my style does not seem work as well here, it is bizarre that Bladesmiths seem to enjoy my diatribes about forging so much. I was only brought here by the fact that my other writings were referenced and upon reading was tempted into a very common conversation that has never resolved anything in the past. I am certain this same topic will rage again within a week or two somewhere on the internet. When it does I will look forward to chatting with you in another corner of the net far removed from it.

 

[2knife]

Tai,
What i like most about what i have read from you, that you have a challenging mindset. You defy the conventional, while embracing tradition. And, you are intelligent on a lot of levels, and keep things in prespective usually.

While i do not know you personally value your input, because of your experience and ability to make a living from your craft, and you possess a free-spirit. And a creative force.

I ALSO find great value in hearing Kevin Cashen's explanations. He is, as i understand, an expert on metallurgy. It is better to hear his remarks, more than many less-experienced, or collectors. He explained something in this thread to me in a way i could understand it, SO i could get the idea. Which i am grateful to him for!

This has been an interesting ride!
David

 

[2knife]

Kevin,
I hope to see more of you around here too. Awesome stuff! You don't need a psychiatrist!

David

 

[Tai Goo]

Ummm you are aware that there are little dials on the side of a microscope stage that will allow you to move around on the subject, aren’t you? Toy microscopes may have only one objective, but others have magnifications ranging from 50X to 1000X or better, I can look at every spot from spine to edge and tip to tang if I wish. Really! Honest!

Kevin, Even if you did do that you would only see what's going on on the surface, right? Have you ever thought about checking blades out with ultrasound? I think that would be cool,... something I've been interested in. I wonder if there are any affordable units out there?

 

[Lycosa]

What about the Topic??!! I've witnessed forged blades and stock removal blades do some incredible cutting. If done the right way, I'd say both methods are equal in producing a fantastic blade.

 

[RogerP]

Mr. Cashen

I don't know much about history . . . or geography . . . or steel, but I do know few pack more reason, literacy, magnanimity, and expertise into posts than you. Please favor us at BF by hanging out here a routine.

ken

Ditto that.

Roger

 

[roughedges]

I believe ultrasound can only be used (as far as metal goes) to find flaws or voids in, or to measure the thickness of, metals.

 

[Tai Goo]

I believe ultrasound can only be used (as far as metal goes) to find flaws or voids in, or to measure the thickness of, metals.

Exactly!

If there is an internal flaw, anomaly or porosity (gas pocket) near the edge, or a large one anywhere inside,... it could be a problem. I don't think there is any other way to detect it.

I’ve run into those types of flaws often enough on the surface that it concerns me.

You can get a pretty good idea of the microstructures, general performance etc… through examination, testing and deduction. Scientists use deduction all the time, like detecting black holes in outer space. No one has ever seen one but they can deduce, where one is and know what it is. I don’t think there’s a good way to deduce internal flaws... Except that they must exist,... but where and to what extent, no.

 

[2knife]

Can anything be proved?

To me, as i read, i am getting factual knowledge here, that leads in a circular way.. ending up with no definitive answer, having many variables (or maybe im not paying close attention) .

The "why".

What about grain refinement, from forging, or the advantages offered by multiple quench, thermal cycles. These are not imaginary, surely? (traditional methods) .. they've been employed for hundreds of years, possibly?

Forging, shatters the crystalline grain structures, refines the steel. Creates a matrix, in differentially heat treatment, gives toughness and strength, right?

And, stock removal knives cannot be differentially heat treated?

i have a rudimentary knowledge of all This, but a lot still a lot of questions, myth and fact.

If this this is wrong, why? David

 

[the possum]

Are you sure you really want to know those answers, David?

 

[peterinct]

There was some interesting information regarding molecular structure of forged steel in the Nova program that has been aired a few times on public television.

I forget the exact title but it showed the forging of Japanese swords from very specific ore which started out as sand. A scientific analysis was done to substantiate the techniques that have been passed down for generations.

It was just on last week.

I'm sure some forumites have seen it. It was informative and fascinating.

Peter

 

[brightred]

recommended by howard clark on another forum: John D. Verhoeven: Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist

now available in hard cover from ASM International or amazon.

i haven't read it, but i'll get a copy. maybe it helps!

hans

 

[severedthumbs]

maybe makers should start doing 64 slice CT scans on their blades before sending them out.